Cameras and shovels + experiments for probes

[Godot]

At the moment probes canot generate any EVA report ...

they also cannot collect surface samples.

At the moment we also don´t have some of the instruments that are included in all (cameras) or many (sample collection) probe missions

Therefore my suggestion are the following instruments, made only for unmanned missions in order to generate EVA reports/surface sample science:

1. Cameras

The camera could be used once per Biome the probe/rover is in and would generate a certain percentage (maybe 25%, maybe even just 10%) of the EVA report science a Kerbonaut produces (and would also be subject to the EVA report science pool for the respective Biome).

2. Scoop

A scoop would collect a surface sample ... afterwars it can be used in 2 ways:

a) On Board Sample Experimental unit ... this is an on board experiment that generates a percentage of the surface sample points a Kerbonaut would produce (like 25% or 10% of it) and would also be subject to the surface sample sc ience pool for the Biome

Sample Return Container ... This container would store the surface sample in order to return it to Kerbin ... a sample collected this way would either generate the full percentage of a surface sample that is brought back home by a Kerbonaut, or at least 50% of it (taking into account that maybe a Kerbonaut on the ground is better at selecting surface samples)

With regards to Cameras there might even be several models (like ... B/W, Basic Color, Advanced Color) each getting different percentages (of Kerbonauts EVA report science points) out of the Biome and each located at a different node in the tch tree.

IMHO these changes would integrate very well into the existing game (after all they only tap into science pools that are already there, i.e. the EVA and surface sample science pools) and the game play ... especially the play with inmanned probes, would win a lot by this.

It would increase the usefulness of probes and would also increase the similarity of KSP probe missions and RL probe missions

[M3tal_Warrior]

Although I'd like to see that coming, I fear this makes Kerbals even more useless than they are now.

[Godot]

Although I'd like to see that coming, I fear this makes Kerbals even more useless than they are now.

You would still need 10 probe missions (if we assume that the instruments produce 10% of a Kerbals EVA report /surface sample science) to a Biome in order to produce the EVA/surface sample of a single Kerbonaut (or a single reusable probe + an orbiting science lab + refuel station)

(all under the assumption that it is implemented along the way I depicted in my OP, that is, that the scoop and cams could only be used once per Biome [and mounting multiple scoops/cams wouldn´t allow you multiple EVA reports/surface samples per Biome])

So manned missions would still be more cost and time efficient than probe missions would be.

The biggest difference IMHO would be Eve ... as you wouldn´t a manned mission (either a one way with the sacrifice/marooning of Kerbals on Eve or a hyperdesigned return one) anymore in order to gain EVA and surface sample science from there

Edited July 28, 2014 by Godot

[M3tal_Warrior]

Sure, but then: Does it actually make sense? Like you get about 20 science from a probe EVA report (that's somehow a contradiction, but anyways) on planet X, but the probe itself flies for 2 years to reach that planet - during that you can do so much other science on Mun and Minmus, you don't need the science any longer when that probe reaches its destination. I don't think this'll really help.

I use probes for almost all ships, except for the landers/space stations - this way I don't have to return my little green guys after having hauled up another gigantic part of station XYZ. I do think they're pretty useful atm, and I can't really complain.

But on the other hand: If Kerbals are implemented with some personality/personalization, I won't cry when your suggestion is implemented too. I just won't use it

[OrbitusII]

As with any new feature, probe-based science would require balancing against what is already there. Remember that this is a suggestion and not an overview of the final implementation of the feature.

That said, I have my own ideas for how this could work.

- Instead of doing EVA reports and taking surface samples like a Kerbal, which would indeed make them obsolete, add the new Camera and Scoop parts, but their science activities are "visual analysis" and "surface analysis," respectively.

- Visual and Surface analysis science won't be worth nearly as much as EVA reports or surface samples since the analysis equipment is a camera and a shovel, and actually getting analysis done in a sophisticated laboratory is better than a simple scan from a probe.

- Just like IRL, until the Kerbals' probe-based science equipment is capable of performing all the functions of a Kerbin-based laboratory, getting Kerbals to bring back physical samples and subjective opinions on the environment beyond simple numbers will yield a fair amount of extra science vs probe analysis. Even if Kerbal technology was on-par with ours (which, IIRC, it's not) they would still benefit from having Kerbals go onsite to perform science.

[Guest]

I can't get behind this for the simple reason that it takes away from Kerbals, even gimped as it is. We need more reasons to send more Kerbals to more places.

[Renegrade]

I can't get behind this for the simple reason that it takes away from Kerbals, even gimped as it is. We need more reasons to send more Kerbals to more places.

While I agree with the first part of your statement, I don't get that second part. Assuming it isn't implemented, don't we have plenty of reasons to send Kerbals, in both science-y and fund-y ways?

My biggest complaint is that there's no reason to send anything outside of Kerbin's SOI anymore.. Except maybe to peek at interplanetary space and zip back in for some quick science.

[Traches]

My biggest complaint is that there's no reason to send anything outside of Kerbin's SOI anymore.. Except maybe to peek at interplanetary space and zip back in for some quick science.

Min/minus EVA reports from all biomes gets super boring, while a single mission to duna/Ike can net a whole ton of science in less playtime and with a lot less tedium.

Also, it might not be sandbox mode but it's still a sandbox game.

[Godot]

As with any new feature, probe-based science would require balancing against what is already there. Remember that this is a suggestion and not an overview of the final implementation of the feature.

That said, I have my own ideas for how this could work.

- Instead of doing EVA reports and taking surface samples like a Kerbal, which would indeed make them obsolete, add the new Camera and Scoop parts, but their science activities are "visual analysis" and "surface analysis," respectively.

- Visual and Surface analysis science won't be worth nearly as much as EVA reports or surface samples since the analysis equipment is a camera and a shovel, and actually getting analysis done in a sophisticated laboratory is better than a simple scan from a probe.

- Just like IRL, until the Kerbals' probe-based science equipment is capable of performing all the functions of a Kerbin-based laboratory, getting Kerbals to bring back physical samples and subjective opinions on the environment beyond simple numbers will yield a fair amount of extra science vs probe analysis. Even if Kerbal technology was on-par with ours (which, IIRC, it's not) they would still benefit from having Kerbals go onsite to perform science.

"Visual Analysis" and "Surface Analysis" as additional science categories sound like a very good idea ...

this way we still have enough reasons to send Kerbals to places but have good reasons to also send unmanned probes to places (and not just Kerbonauts)

[Capt Snuggler]

I can't get behind this for the simple reason that it takes away from Kerbals, even gimped as it is. We need more reasons to send more Kerbals to more places.

I'm inclined to agree, but I think the kerbals will be expanded in the future which should make them more important. I think they will always offer a MUCH higher rep reward.

perhaps "advanced robotics" (scoops, drills etc) could be a later tech tree item. maybe these advanced probe components could be very fragile or prone to dust damage?(spirit rover) kerbals could repair them.