Devnote Tuesdays: The Administrative Edition

[The Jedi Master]

No need to feel insulted Sarabian - we know most, if not all our modders, have the community's best interests at heart, but it's important that we clarify our rules and expectations. I am blown away by the modding community - it's something really awesome to see and we're actually working on something to illustrate how proud we are of what our modders have been able to accomplish.

Bold mine. Get hyped!

[Tiberion]

No need to feel insulted Sarabian - we know most, if not all our modders, have the community's best interests at heart, but it's important that we clarify our rules and expectations. I am blown away by the modding community - it's something really awesome to see and we're actually working on something to illustrate how proud we are of what our modders have been able to accomplish.

Glad to hear you say that. The wording is vague in the extreme and does come across as ominous. "Putting the player first" doesn't really mean anything. If this is really all stemming from the stats mod, then I'm not sure you understood what it was about. Even if you don't like the way it was implemented, there is no argument that its purpose wasn't to benefit the players - it was to gather information on versions and crashes to help plugin developers solve bugs and improve the player experience. I can't think of a single KSP mod that aimed to treat users poorly, including the stats mod Changing the rules of data transmission is fine, but lets not try to drive a narrative that it was actually abusive.

And the phrase "putting players first" sets off all sorts of alarm bells about licensing and modder's rights to their own content and another round of hoop-jumping.

Speaking of hoop-jumping, if we're clarifying rules and modder guidelines, can we please lay out rules about Curse/Forge. There is currently an unwritten rule that mods can only featured or even mentioned at all by Squad if they are hosted on Curse. Just hosting on the forums with a direct download link isn't good enough, nor is using the community-run mod site.

If this is a rule it needs to be listed as such, and you guys need to be upfront about it. (To be specific, this primarily concerns who is spotlighted on Modding Mondays and mods that are mentioned in random official tweets)

Frankly I think its unacceptable. Curse was supposed to be an option, not mandatory, and not 'optional but we don't acknowledge you exist.' I think it's fairly clear now that a lot of us, if not most of us, don't want to use Curse as a hosting service. There's no reason to rehash those reasons, not are those reasons likely to change. Nonetheless we were promised it was indeed optional, and that you would do everything possible to promote and support everyone, not just Curse users.

To be clear I don't care for myself, my mods are ancient and I never expect to be featured. But having cool new mods ignored (or worse; pressured to submit their work to the Curse content mill) is bad.

So let's clear all of that up. And I urge you guys not to walk away from the open environment you have given modders. The game and its players have greatly benefited from that over the years and there's no reason to stop now.

[cpast]

Wasn't DebRefund mentioned in a Modding Monday? Isn't that not on Curse?

EDIT: Just checked, and appears to be "yes" and "it's not on Curse". I don't see where you conclude Curse is necessary to be mentioned or featured.

Edited July 30, 2014 by cpast

[Tiberion]

Wasn't DebRefund mentioned in a Modding Monday? Isn't that not on Curse?

EDIT: Just checked, and appears to be "yes" and "it's not on Curse". I don't see where you conclude Curse is necessary to be mentioned or featured.

well, from what I know as a third party who saw the end of it go down;

They asked the author or Debrefund to host on Curse in order to be featured. Which he did.

He then decided it wasn't worth the trouble of multiple updates and having people with tons of versions and removed it from Curse (after it was featured) and told them to remove the feature if they wanted to.

This was discussed at length in IRC in front of dozens of people (not the main channel) with one of the people responsible at Squad confirming the requirement. I am not making it up, and I am sure numerous logs of the chat exist (I probably have one) but I don't think its necessary to drag them out to 'prove' anything.

Also, to finish the story; it was suggested by said Squad person that the alternate to requiring Curse hosting was to just stop Modding Mondays.

Which seems like madness to me.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Tiberion

[The Jedi Master]

I seriously doubt the above is 100% true. I'm not trying to call you a liar, but unless I see the log, I'm going to assume this is being exaggerated.

[moeggz]

Moeggz,

We're still sorting all of this out but the idea is that user-generated content that is for fun (not profit) would be supported and encouraged. What's happening now is we're getting more requests to create content that leverages our intellectual property for profit. We need to defend our rights in situations like this while also making sure we're really supporting the people who are doing great stuff that is beneficial to the community. I hope this helps you out.

It does. I totally understand the need to protect your IP from being monetized without consent. I also get using disclaimers for legal protection for both ends and as a way to protect your IP's image. I just wanted to make sure your post didn't mean that players would not be able to use the phrase Kerbal at all, even if for fun and not profit. If a disclaimer is needed for those circumstances I will gladly use it. As long as I can watch let's plays and read Kerbal fan fic (where neither are monetizing off of the IP and IF there is any revenue it is solely by advertising) and have Kerbals still be called Kerbals with a disclaimer in the description I'm good. Thanks for your reply, devnote post and all your hard work. I mean, really, thanks. You guys at SQUAD make a great company with amazing customer relations that make an awesome community. I'm truly grateful and hope to see KSP all the way to 1.0 and then eagerly purchase your next game.

[r4m0n]

I seriously doubt the above is 100% true. I'm not trying to call you a liar, but unless I see the log, I'm going to assume this is being exaggerated.

Here is a full log of #kspmodders on 2014-07-25, in which I believe most of the discussion took place. Here are some quotes from where it starts:

[02:08] <Vendan> oh, and Maxmaps, feel free to remove DebRefund from the modding monday thing, cause I have removed my alternative download link. It was getting frustrating dealing with people downloading it from there

[02:09] <+Maxmaps> Will look into it Vendan, I'm running on fumes and nostalgia right now.

[02:09] <Vendan> cause DebRefund is also only available on KerbalStuff

[02:09] <+Maxmaps> I know!

[02:09] <Tiberion> Vendan: bummed to hear you're getting frustrated dealing with things. I hope you stick with it

[02:09] <+Maxmaps> When we were talking alternatives and our boss brought Curse I was like 'I KNOW THOSE PEOPLE'

...

[Tiberion]

Here is a full log of #kspmodders on 2014-07-25, in which I believe most of the discussion took place. Here are some quotes from where it starts:

Thanks r4m0n, I didn't want to post mine because I came in during the previous conversation, so it was imcomplete.

This part also seems relevant:

(note: my log timecodes are 2 hours behind, so its actually from 02:10 to 02:12 in the above log)

[00:10] <SirCmpwn> Vendan: Maxmaps: is there a rule preventing mods from being featured on modding monday if they're hosted exclusively on kerbal stuff?
[00:10] <toadicus> SirCmpwn, my mods haven't been anywhere but my private hosting for a long time
[00:10] <Vendan> Tiberion, at this point, the worst that happens is that I request that my thread be deleted, and I'll just stay on KerbalStuff
[00:10] <+Maxmaps> I personally would rather we keep all of our official stuff supporting Curse
[00:10] <toadicus> And 3/4 of mine have been featured
[00:10] <Vendan> SirCmpwn, I was told so
[00:10] <+Maxmaps> But I am willing to hear arguments.
[00:10] <FarAwayCactus> SirCmpwn, prolly only by one message though, as kountdown is set to ignore those two
[00:10] <Kaelten> hehe, and here we are again. hehe
[00:10] <SirCmpwn> Vendan: well ...., .... that
01[00:10] <Tiberion> Maxmaps: wtf really?
[00:11] <SirCmpwn> that's ........, Maxmaps 
01[00:11] <Tiberion> how does that even need to be an argument?
[00:11] <+Maxmaps> That aint even an argument.
[00:11] <Vendan> I was asked to provide an alternative download link, just something that wasn't on KerbalStuff
[00:11] <SirCmpwn> Vendan: by whom, if I might ask
[00:11] <toadicus> Maxmaps: IMO, anything on your forums should be fair game.  Since you and curse aren't moving money, you don't really owe them that kind of support.  I mean, unless you do, in which case you should say so and let them host the modding spotlight. 
[00:11] <+Maxmaps> That I didn't hear. If that was by Rows that was probably because he's still very much on 'dont do anything kerbalstuff related right now'
[00:12] <Vendan> KasperVld

Also above this conversation is interesting things re: Kerbalstuff's use of the Kerbal name. Sort of explains the bit about that in this Devnote now that I read that (I missed most of that conversation sadly) It's around the 01:36 mark

And for the record Jedi; It would be pretty stupid of me to make up lies about Squad. I was trying to bring all this up without getting into specific names and such, but that ship has sailed now.

Edit: the forum is eating the names from the log lines because they're inside of brackets like HTML code would be - so open the log file link and browse to the time codes for name context (Or quote the post, you can see the names in the edit window)

Edited July 30, 2014 by Tiberion

[The Jedi Master]

Well, darn. I'm disappointed, Maxmaps. That was not the proper way to handle the situation, at least in my opinion.

[KerbMav]

I see no reason why curse cannot be the official hosting site for stuff Squad distributes parallel to KSP, while still being purely optional for modders - also there is nothing douchy about spotlighting a mod that is not hosted on curse - not even if you know them personally (if that is what is meant by knowing those people?).

+Maxmaps: When we were talking alternatives and our boss brought Curse I was like 'I KNOW THOSE PEOPLE'

Spotlighting a mod is spotlighting a mod - not advertising the download source. Saying that it would is similar to saying a TV-chef preparing beef is endorsing maltreatment of animals - it is the customer that decides where to buy the meat.

[blizzy78]

They asked the author or Debrefund to host on Curse in order to be featured. Which he did.

...

Also, to finish the story; it was suggested by said Squad person that the alternate to requiring Curse hosting was to just stop Modding Mondays.

If that is the case, then I'd rather have no Modding Monday episodes at all.

[tygoo7]

Thanks r4m0n, I didn't want to post mine because I came in during the previous conversation, so it was imcomplete.

This part also seems relevant:

(note: my log timecodes are 2 hours behind, so its actually from 02:10 to 02:12 in the above log)

-snip-

Also above this conversation is interesting things re: Kerbalstuff's use of the Kerbal name. Sort of explains the bit about that in this Devnote now that I read that (I missed most of that conversation sadly) It's around the 01:36 mark

And for the record Jedi; It would be pretty stupid of me to make up lies about Squad. I was trying to bring all this up without getting into specific names and such, but that ship has sailed now.

Edit: the forum is eating the names from the log lines because they're inside of brackets like HTML code would be - so open the log file link and browse to the time codes for name context (Or quote the post, you can see the names in the edit window)

Wow, I don't know why they are being strict about Curse. I love KerbalStuff because it just feels like it is more Kerbal Space Program and it has a better layout and email notifications. I don't think they should make modders use only curse since the community likes KerbalStuff more.

[calisker]

Hi Tiberion,

Thanks for playing KSP - and thanks for modding our game. We wouldn’t be here without support from players like you!

We appreciate your feedback on which mods might be abusive or nonabusive and will take that into consideration when making decisions regarding our modding policies.

Our team at Squad is passionate about KSP and it’s always great to see people share their own positive ideas about the game. We do our best to listen to everybody and take it into consideration. Did you know HarvesteR was a modder before he started developing KSP? That’s right! And it’s why our entire team spends a lot of time on each update to assure mods aren’t broken before we launch the new version of KSP.

Thanks for reiterating your point about Curse not having 100 percent approval from the modding community. We know that sometimes our decisions won’t be popular ones with everybody, but we’re seeing some really amazing metrics from our new modding community at Curse. We’re hoping to reveal a few of these numbers very soon but are just checking our math and finishing something up that should explain why we’re big fans of Curse at Squad. (Plus, their dedicated team to KSP has been working pretty hard - so we hope if you seen them around - you say thank you!)

We respect your thoughts on Modding Mondays too - but as it stands, it is currently our policy to focus our efforts on promoting mods that are available on Curse. We use our dev blog as an informational tool and want to promote our other official channels. Rowsdower might slip in a mod he’s particular geeked about from time to time that isn’t on Curse but we won’t be promoting any other sites, although we’re totally fine if you want to use those instead. Go for it!

Hope this helps as we’re pretty excited about the continued growth of KSP and our community - it’s been a fun rocket ride and we have no intentional of landing just yet!