Concept Rockets

[Sauron]

The spaceplane again. This time with hatches, (rough) RCS thrusters, and a bit more detail. Orange pods indicate landing gear. Also, a naming scheme: The rival power uses Maori names of celestial bodies. The spaceplane is Autahi (Canopus). They'll have to get a bigger orbiter for Sirius, I suppose!

Note: Magical TPS is magical--this thing uses spooky aerospace superalloys, witchcraft, and possibly active cooling to survive reentry

The moon rocket is Takero (it's an Easter egg! Use Google! )

Cargo spacecraft specs in real life are still a bit iffy. It would be either ~2.65m (it's meant as a slightly larger Progress analogue rather than an ATV-alike). Also worth noting: the reentry module is 2.25m (it's pretty cramped for 5 people but bigger than Soyuz. It also benefits from miniaturization and fancy stuff like that). Like Soyuz it uses NTO/Hydrazine as fuel (for BOTH RCS and main engines).

Edited August 13, 2014 by Sauron

[OrbitusII]

Looks awesome! I'll get the manned capsule done and released and then I'll do the spaceplane.

[Nicholander]

Great spaceplans Sauron! Also, does the rival power have conventional manned spacecraft?

[Sauron]

Possibly they had them at some point in the past but then they went for reusable orbiters. ...Possibly because spaceplanes are awesome I may make some older stuff, but honestly, they'll suck until I fool around long enough to develop annother style

As far as I can see, the 'good guys' are starting rather a lot behind--so that early one man capsule was launched when the 'bad guys' were testing second-generation capsules--but not quite ready to launch them (the Autahi) and gearing up for a moonshot. So there would be a a lot of catch-up to be done.

Also, the good guys would probably be doing a 2-launch LOR mission with the 5-man capsule (with a reduced crew) while the bad guys would be doing a much larger and more glamorous direct-ascent mission backed up by NTRs.

[Nicholander]

Hmm... Interesting... Also, remember that space station you drew? (Well, more like a 2 Salyuts/Skylabs docked together in space) Does it ever get larger, as the module with no solar panels has a node-like group of docking ports. If it does, could you draw it?

EDIT: Also, why do both powers use the exact same type of docking system?

[Sauron]

Same docking system? Laziness on the part of the artist--though they are actually different sizes (Also, possibly an international standard?)

Space station? Yes, it does get larger in theory. But it's really cramped (even compared to Mir)--it speaks to how kit-bashy the good guys are. Also, all modules are self-contained spacecraft (Russian-style). Making more modules that are identical except for the internals and some scientific hardware struck me as silly.

Also, a quick (napkin-quality) estimate of the bad guys' lunar LV (suggests I need to be using hydrolox upper stages and hydrogen NTRS? (or else, crude liquid core NTRS?)). OR an LV that uses it's nuclear upper stage more heavily rather than only when in a stable parking orbit.

180 tons to LEO

NTR tug has ~6.5 m/s (with 80 tons of fuel and an ISP of ~1200s (~7km/s). This covers TLI, LOI, and (most of) Lunar Descent. The highly radioactive debris lands a few km away from the planned landing site (They're the bad guys. They can litter the moon if they damn well please! )

The >80-ton Autahi/ascent stack has about 60 tons of hydrolox fuel (for ~6km/s) This covers the Ascent and most of the TEI burn less about 300m/s which is provided by the orbiter itself (a risky maneuver!). The empty ascent stage misses earth and is flung into Solar orbit. The breakdown of that stack is as follows:

-Stripped-down Autahi (3 man crew and every pound of weight possible removed): ~12 tons

-Airlock module, space suits, rover, science kit, fancy toys: >2 tons

-Structural mass: >8 tons

Edited August 13, 2014 by Sauron

[Nicholander]

Ah, so the space station is just 2 modules, tough I really think there should at least be a third one for example, an area with an external science thing like Kibo? And maybe an EVA airlock, or do all modules have that?

[Sauron]

That's not how these guys do things--they don't have the infrastructure to do complex orbital assembly; everything has to be in a self-contained spacecraft of which there are only 4 types (Space station, node, supply craft, and crew craft). If it isn't able to dock under it's own power and provide it's own electricity these guys can't do it. FWW EVA would be done Soyuz-style (using a crew-transport's OM as a makeshift airlock). External science that requires hard vacuum would be done in the unpressurized section of a supply craft--modified for that purpose. Remember, these are the underdogs

The bad guys? Their space station/s have trusses. Such luxury!

[OrbitusII]

... Laziness... cramped... kit-bashy... Russian... napkin-quality estimate... stable parking orbit...

180 tons

... to LEO

Oh, right. These are designed for use in an environment similar to what we have in real life... Carry on then!

I need to remember context for these things better, sheesh!

Pretty neat stuff, I like the idea of having two differing factions with a fairly significant technological margin. Really makes it clear that two superpowers wouldn't necessarily have developed their aerospace infrastructure similarly to how the US and Soviet Union did.

That spaceplane is gonna be an awesome piece of hardware once it's done and in-game.

Edited August 13, 2014 by OrbitusII

[Nicholander]

That's not how these guys do things--they don't have the infrastructure to do complex orbital assembly; everything has to be in a self-contained spacecraft of which there are only 4 types (Space station, node, supply craft, and crew craft). If it isn't able to dock under it's own power and provide it's own electricity these guys can't do it. FWW EVA would be done Soyuz-style (using a crew-transport's OM as a makeshift airlock). External science that requires hard vacuum would be done in the unpressurized section of a supply craft--modified for that purpose. Remember, these are the underdogs

The bad guys? Their space station/s have trusses. Such luxury!

Okay, so there station modules are there own mini-spacecraft, got it. Though really, what more could you put in that Orange Cargo Spacecraft derived design that's not already in the 2 modules, maybe one that includes an interchangeable external scientific thing, like Kibo? (Okay, maybe this shouldn't have a Kibo-alike module, but what do you think the 3rd one should have?)

Edited August 13, 2014 by Nicholander

[Captain_Party]

From what I understand, the 'good guys' are very utilitarian, they sorta salvage and reuse what they can get their hands on, and their design style is 1970's Soviet style.

The 'bad guys' have a bigger budget, and are more American ETS style of design and tend to be a bit more lax when it comes to spending.

Well done by the way, these look excellent.

[Sauron]

The good guys aren't so much low-tech (though they lag behind in pure rocketry) as they are extremely limited in budget. This means that a lot of hardware is built using common modular systems. It also means their LVs are a bit small compared to what they're needed for.

The bad guys are that scary team in the sports film. They have a big military industrial complex and a lot of money to chuck around. So they go big.

[Nicholander]

Sauron, could you also draw the vehicles the "Good guys" used to land a man on the moon? (If they've done it) Like the vehicle that actually lands there, like the LK/LEM.

[Nicholander]

Sauron, any new drawings or something?

[Sauron]

Patience!

[Sauron]

A 2-man lunar lander. Note that this is only the ascent stage--the descent stage isn't done yet. There is no real airlock to save weight--it uses 2 suit ports on the opposite side (not shown due to the difficulty of drawing space suits!) for EVAs. The lander carries a rover and a surprisingly substantial amount of scientific kit. The good guys' architecture involves sending the LM and the CM to the moon separately for a double LOR.

Profile looks like this:

A (LM) ~60 tons:

S1 & S2: LEO

S3: Departure, LOI

S4: Descent

Lander: Part of Descent, Ascent

B ~60 tons:

S1 & S2: LEO

S3: Departure, LOI, Part of Departure

CM: Part of Departure

[OrbitusII]

Looks cool! It should be a fun one to design once I get to it.

[Sauron]

Descent and departure stage. May need to be a bit bigger--law school applications have made me very hostile to thinking this week

Also, a tentative size-comparison to the SM

Edited August 17, 2014 by Sauron

[Nicholander]

Ah, BRILLIANT! I love the way you did the Lunar Lander, just LOVE IT!

[Sauron]

Poking at the side view--as you can see, there are a few problems so far. This is an early iteration yet.

Notes:

-RCS is meant to be offset at 45 degrees (so are the legs)

-Top cargo container contains a rover and folds down to surface level on a lightweight armature.

-Suitports have an automatic closing mechanism so both astronauts can EVA at the same time.

[Sauron]

Yo dawg, I heard you liked paper projects so I made a paper project of a paper project...

But seriously, a theoretical multicore ~SLS class lifter to rival the bad guys' moon rocket that would strictly be a pipe-dream for the good guys. Not nearly enough funding .

Edited August 17, 2014 by Sauron

[Nicholander]

What is that supposed to be? The payload fairing section of the good guys paper project super-rocket? I WANNA SEE THE REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sauron]

For you RSS fiends, the good guys' lightest rocket puts approximately 3 tons or a very small capsule into a respectable LEO. I ran the numbers today.

S1: 1x Enhanced APCP 7-Segment Solid Rocket motor "Gamma 7L" (~86.5mt/~34.5mt, ATM VE 2700)

S2: 2x N2O4/UDMH Upper Stage Motors "OPAL" (~33mt/~4.2mt, VAC VE 3369)

Some assumptions:

-I have no good data on UDMH/N2O2 tank penalty mass fractions. I spitballed it at 1.5%. It might be lower.

-The good guys use cutting-edge SRBs with VEs to the tune of 2600 m/s (this is slightly higher than Atlas SRBs)

-I'm pulling numbers out of thin air for structural mass. But as a sanity check, I'm getting a payload mass ratio of around 2.7. That's reasonable and roughly in line with a Soyuz. So I'm happy with this, I think.

Also, I suspect that this will mean that the good guys larger rocket (shown so far) will have from 2-5 OPAL engines in it's upper stage. Lower stage engines are uncertain at this point.

[Sauron]

I'm baaaaack (ish).

Here is the Kapehu (Compass) rocket. It's in the same general class as the Falcon 9.1 or a larger Atlas (on which it's loosely based) in terms of size and payload. With a full 6 boosters it beats a Proton.

Both configurations shown have 2 SRBs but can have anywhere between 0-6. This variant is a bit overpowered for an Autahi+SM (which weighs under 20 mt) so it's probably launching to a less convenient orbit. Generally, the Autahi doesn't require any SRBs. It's probably a kerolox first stage with a methalox or hydrolox upper stage.

Payload-wise, a 0-booster rocket has a payload of ~20 tons. Multicore variants have been proposed but not built (the 30-70 ton range is pretty sparse in real life too. It's an awkward size for paylaods)

In terms of payloads:

-Space station modules (though the core and perhaps some other modules of the rival's main space station are launched on a Takero and then built up further with smaller launches (ISS sized modules). So they have a 100+ ton core module to start with!

-Autahi+OM (or an alternative payload--the Autahi OM has also been outfitted in all sorts of ways (telescope, earth observation, lab...).

-Disposable resupply craft (ATV+ in size)

-Large comsat and military spy sat payloads

-Tier-1 science missions to other planets

I've shown one sat-launch configuration with a fairing and one with an Autahi orbiter (an OM is hidden in an interstage immediately below).

Uses a cluster of 6 Tawhaki-UR engines in the first stage and 3 upper-stage engines.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Sauron

[wasmic]

Any chance that it could all be compiled into two imgur albums (one for the "good" guys and one for the "bad" guys)? That would make it all much easier to keep track of.