A Modding Community Divided.

[TheAlmightyOS]

Sure, let's talk. So, if I understand your point (correct me if I'm wrong), basically the problem is primarily around two issues:

- finding new mods

- updating already installed mods

If I understand correctly, you would like to have some sort of tool that can automatically install and update mods in a similar fashion to the Nexus Mod Manager.

Is this right or am I misunderstanding something?

YES! Communication! Thank you for talking to me Ippo

You are correct. And the solution for those issues must meet the criteria of not putting an additional burden on the mod author AND satisfying the needs of end users.

Which, is why I want to talk to you guys. Do you or have you thought about using a Version file in your mods, Ippo?

Get those two projects working together and get a few big name mods using them, and maybe you'll start to see a consensus. If it really is as simple as adding a file and maybe writing a script for updating/packaging/building, very few will have an issue. But the moment modders have to start uploading to multiple places that aren't their favorite, you're going to start seeing backlash. Having accounts on tons of different sites and requiring multiple uploads increases workload and the chance that something will be missed. No one wants to add workload because that means less time having fun doing a hobby.

A certain user in this thread isn't exactly helping your cause.

Am I that user?

But yes, I agree with you. I had a spark of an idea last night of combining the two. Right now trying to get some information from Keks to write up what this Version-meta file might look like. But it would require the author to input a bit more information and I want to see if that would fly or not. Still more to talk about.

[sarbian]

***I am starting fresh at this point because you guys have not been listening to me, only attacking me. Let's try to do something a bit more constructive, shall we?***

I'm not exactly sure of the count but is that the third or the fourth time you are explaining that we don't understand you and you need to start over this thread ? At this point do you really think this thread can be saved ?

[*]to alienate anyone else in this thread​

Here I come !

But there is more I want to learn. I want to learn about your processes, how you deal with KSP updates and how you handle support requests when you do get them. I want to know your difficulties and what works (which sounds like almost everything) and what doesn't

Before we start can you show me your ITIL certification ? Because before we start defining awesome processes to handle support requests let's be sure you have the proper formation.

Don't try to be the white knight who saves the modders from whatever you think we need to be saved from. We don't need saving.

You keep talking about divide among modder but as other said there is no such thing. While there may be some feuds most of them don't last long.

For me the main problem with modding is not that users don't install or find my mod properly. It's that some users come on the forum and fill my threads with "It does not work, I m sure you did not even test it and you are evil". A better way to find mods or install them won't change this.

And I don't get paid per install (or per anything actually). I make my mods because I need them, and since I have some masochist tendency I fell the urge to post them on the forum and get blamed for any crash that occurs while my files are somewhere on the user HD.

[Ippo]

[...] You are correct. And the solution for those issues must meet the criteria of not putting an additional burden on the mod author AND satisfying the needs of end users. [...] Do you or have you thought about using a Version file in your mods, Ippo?

Yes, DangIt includes a .version file, which is extra-convenient for its 2 users However, KSP AVC seems to have a pretty serious bug that limits its utility at the moment.

As for the mod manager, basically what users want is essentially the Nexus Mod Manager: great website to browse, super-easy installation, and update notifications. I don't honestly know why the Nexus is not used by this community: I don't know it very well myself, but I noticed that none of the three mods that are on nexus support the mod manager. If anyone knows why, I'd be really interested in knowing why.

Also, your post has generated a lot of heat also because it is not the first time this is suggested and discussed: in fact, a quick search brings up 3 different mod managers (#1, #2 and #3). Please note that #1 and #2 have been abandoned though correction: #1 is still active (my bad, sorry), but in the IRC channel there have been some discussions about a fourth project which is still active, AFAIK.

So yeah, basically the reaction was not extremely positive because this is an old issue that has been raised many times, and no one has ever been able to solve it completely.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Ippo
errata corrige

[southernrock]

Sure, let's talk. So, if I understand your point (correct me if I'm wrong), basically the problem is primarily around two issues:

- finding new mods

- updating already installed mods

If I understand correctly, you would like to have some sort of tool that can automatically install and update mods in a similar fashion to the Nexus Mod Manager.

Is this right or am I misunderstanding something?

----He is saying that the modders don't want such a system, not that it couldn't work for this game. Forcing modders to use it would basically kill off quite a lot of mods but if you're ok with that then..

False considering there is already a mod manager mod out their that requires near ZERO effort from the mod author, but lacks support and relies on Curse, which doesnt work well with me

my complaints-

- Poor community turnover at curse, since that is the closest thing that can handle a mod manager (there is a ksp mod manager mod), which is out and works decently enough, but I currently cannot access Curse through firefox or chrome and Internet explorer isnt really that great on that site for some reason. This mod manager doesnt require the mod author to do anything. You copy the mod URL from curse and the manager keeps tabs of what you have, you can disable and enable mods, and you can update them. The problem on this end is curse and that a lot of mods dont cross over.

- Not only finding new mods, but also trying to find older ones that you have installed from months prior. If we had an official mod manager used by the community, it would be easy to have everything organized

-the mod library works good, to an extent. But isnt a full 100% list and will never be. Not to mention the mods that get broken or lost during the shut down and some moveing to curse

We dont just need the manager, we need the entire mod community to support it and a site, and not be halved and splintered. We need a universal standard on what everyone is using and where everyone is going to get their mods. The forums are great for feedback, but realistically difficult to drudge for mods, and then refind them to update. Curse, at least, has dedicated pages and a better search function, but again, most arent their.

Edited August 5, 2014 by southernrock

[TheAlmightyOS]

Don't try to be the white knight who saves the modders from whatever you think we need to be saved from. We don't need saving.

You keep talking about divide among modder but as other said there is no such thing. While there may be some feuds most of them don't last long.

For me the main problem with modding is not that users don't install or find my mod properly. It's that some users come on the forum and fill my threads with "It does not work, I m sure you did not even test it and you are evil". A better way to find mods or install them won't change this.

And I don't get paid per install (or per anything actually). I make my mods because I need them, and since I have some masochist tendency I fell the urge to post them on the forum and get blamed for any crash that occurs while my files are somewhere on the user HD.

I don't think I am a white knight. I ain't trying to save the mod Authors. The divide is not between the mod authors it is between the authors and the users (please READ my explanation in the post you are using to attack me with). I am sorry so many users can't install your mod correctly. I use MechJeb a lot. Someone would have to be very dense not to install it right.

I do not know where you got the idea about handling support requests. I just want to talk, sarbian. I am sorry I offended you. And you might not like me but, man, you are a brilliant modder. I respect you.

You say your issue is "some users come on the forum and fill my threads with "It does not work, I m sure you did not even test it and you are evil".". User blast back IS an issue I want to consider and talk about. I do not have a solution for this, but if we all talk about these issues maybe we can find a solution.

[Ippo]

We dont just need the manager, we need the entire mod community to support it and a site, and not be halved and splintered. We need a universal standard on what everyone is using and where everyone is going to get their mods. The forums are great for feedback, but realistically difficult to drudge for mods, and then refind them to update. Curse, at least, has dedicated pages and a better search function, but again, most arent their.

Well, considering how well the transition to curse has been handled, I really think that anyone that wants to make a successful mod manager will just have to deal with the fact that curse will never be adopted by the majority of the community. My mod, for instance, is not hosted there.

Right or wrong it doesn't matter: many modders refuse to host on curse, and this is a fact that is here to stay. Basically, modders won't start adopting a standard until it gains some traction, and it cannot gain traction if it only supports curse.

[TheAlmightyOS]

----He is saying that the modders don't want such a system, not that it couldn't work for this game. Forcing modders to use it would basically kill off quite a lot of mods but if you're ok with that then..

False considering there is already a mod manager mod out their that requires near ZERO effort from the mod author, but lacks support and relies on Curse, which doesnt work well with me

my complaints-

- Poor community turnover at curse, since that is the closest thing that can handle a mod manager (there is a ksp mod manager mod), which is out and works decently enough, but I currently cannot access Curse through firefox or chrome and Internet explorer isnt really that great on that site for some reason. This mod manager doesnt require the mod author to do anything. You copy the mod URL from curse and the manager keeps tabs of what you have, you can disable and enable mods, and you can update them. The problem on this end is curse and that a lot of mods dont cross over.

- Not only finding new mods, but also trying to find older ones that you have installed from months prior. If we had an official mod manager used by the community, it would be easy to have everything organized

-the mod library works good, to an extent. But isnt a full 100% list and will never be. Not to mention the mods that get broken or lost during the shut down and some moveing to curse

We dont just need the manager, we need the entire mod community to support it and a site, and not be halved and splintered. We need a universal standard on what everyone is using and where everyone is going to get their mods. The forums are great for feedback, but realistically difficult to drudge for mods, and then refind them to update. Curse, at least, has dedicated pages and a better search function, but again, most arent their.

Southernrock, thank you for the support, but you are not helping. I know you mean well and I agree with what you are saying. But please understand what works for some communities does not work for others. Yes, moving to the nexus would be much simpler, FOR THE END USER. But for the Mod authors? Not so much. They have already had to move twice. Plus it adds yet another point for them to update. They will not be convinced to completely move over and frankly neither would I and I use Nexus for everything.

[Padishar]

False considering there is already a mod manager mod out their that requires near ZERO effort from the mod author, but lacks support and relies on Curse, which doesnt work well with me

This in no way makes what I said false. There is no mod manager mod that modders are forced to use. You even emboldened that part of my quote and you still managed to post an irrelevant response...

We need a universal standard on what everyone is using and where everyone is going to get their mods.

As has been said many times before, this would be unacceptable to a large number of modders. The community would lose a lot of mods if this was forced on them...

[TheAlmightyOS]

Before we start can you show me your ITIL certification ? Because before we start defining awesome processes to handle support requests let's be sure you have the proper formation.

And I know you were just being hostile when you said this, but just for fun if you give me your email in pm I will have CompTIA send you a copy of my A+|ce cert. Also, I have experience using JIRA, Remedy, Tracker, Version Manager and OpenTicket. While I do work with these ticketing systems I much prefer to be in the field solving problems.

I am not exactly sure what the ITIL cert is for. Seems like more of a European standard for IT administration going off a quick glance at the wiki.

I am not qualified to tell you guys what to do if that is what you were getting at with your jab. However, does one need a certification to talk and discuss?

[Padishar]

...hostile...

<DodgySpanishAccent>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.</DodgySpanishAccent>

More seriously, it does mean what you think it does but there is a wide range of "hostile" and, IMO, your posts have been considerably more so than any replies from modders...

Edited August 5, 2014 by Padishar

[Thesonicgalaxy]

And I know you were just being hostile when you said this, but just for fun if you give me your email in pm I will have CompTIA send you a copy of my A+|ce cert. Also, I have experience using JIRA, Remedy, Tracker, Version Manager and OpenTicket. While I do work with these ticketing systems I much prefer to be in the field solving problems.

I am not exactly sure what the ITIL cert is for. Seems like more of a European standard for IT administration going off a quick glance at the wiki.

I am not qualified to tell you guys what to do if that is what you were getting at with your jab. However, does one need a certification to talk and discuss?

It's just the fact you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

[Ippo]

It's just the fact you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

Well, while I agree that there is no real problem, I also think that a good mod manager with auto-updates would be sweet.

[TheAlmightyOS]

<DodgySpanishAccent>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.</DodgySpanishAccent>

HAH! love that meme....

Anyway, what would would you use to describe a remark that is intended to be taken in a negative, possibly hurtful, way towards the general conversation? Seriously, what would you use cause anything I can learn about not offending you guys the better.

Everyone thinks I am trying to do something I am not. This thread has turned into such a mess. I admit it was my own doing in the beginning, should not have started a thread pissed. But now... I don't understand the negativity. I apologized for the caps usage, tried to explain my intent but only two people have been willing to talk to me thus far. I am not a white knight, I am not some dult making demands ether. I don't want to be the guy who fixes everything. I just want to talk. I wan't to understand the modder side of things. That is it.

Edited August 5, 2014 by KasperVld
removed minor profanity

[TheAlmightyOS]

It's just the fact you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem exists. Not for the modders, but for the users. please see the bottom of post #73

[Thesonicgalaxy]

The problem exists. Not for the modders, but for the users. please see the bottom of post #73

Give me a link to all the people who complained about the issue. Not just you. At least 20 people.

[helldiver]

Personally I wouldn't mind a universal standard location. Helps with mod exposure and such.

However, I'm quite content on keeping my stuff on Mediafire since it's easy for me to drag and drop updates and changes in a matter of minutes.

That being said, really wish KSP would go the Skyrim route and have the majority of their stuff on the KSP Nexus and use Nexus Mod Manager.

[TheAlmightyOS]

Give me a link to all the people who complained about the issue. Not just you. At least 20 people.

What you are asking for is not fair. You know as well as I do that those posts would be spread across hundreds of threads. So instead, here are all the threads discussing projects to make mod managers OR somehow make updating easier:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/78861

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/85865

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64058

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/79745

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/55401

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/85989

I am sure you can find your 20 within the comments of those threads. Thesonicgalaxy, there is a problem. It isn't with you. It isn't with your mod. It isn't even with KSP, Squad or Curse! The issue is with those of us that see the problem and have not made a fix yet

I asked a few modders why they mod. The common answer was they mod for themselves and they mod to make the game the way they think it should be. Think of this like research for a mod. I want to make the way mods are updated the way I think it should be and the way the people in those threads and the modders alike agree with.

I am not a bad enough coder to write a mod manager. But I can get ideas, I can share them, I can talk with you guys. And that is what I am going to do

You guys can keep telling me there isn't a problem. Tell me I am being a whole lot of things I am not. But I am here to talk and I am not going to give up.

Personally I wouldn't mind a universal standard location. Helps with mod exposure and such.

However, I'm quite content on keeping my stuff on Mediafire since it's easy for me to drag and drop updates and changes in a matter of minutes.

That being said, really wish KSP would go the Skyrim route and have the majority of their stuff on the KSP Nexus and use Nexus Mod Manager.

Yeah, Nexus would be nice but a vast majority of the mod authors have stated they would not want to move again.

Furthermore, I would like to discus ways that Authors like yourself don't have to move where you put mods nor do much if anything differently.

Mind if I ask you a few questions about your process?

Edited August 5, 2014 by TheAlmightyOS
typo

[camlost]

The OP is basically dreaming. However, I speculate that when multiplayer is introduced the game has to address mod consistency issues, by which time there will be enough reasons to develop a mod-manager. Take a look at another geeky sandbox game: ArmA.

[Justin Kerbice]

Talks goes wrong maybe because the core question was wrongly created, IMHO, it would not be

"hey modders, there are issues with what we have now, you should do this or that, what do yo think ?"

(potential "between the lines" misinterpreted meaning: you're doing all wrong, I'm new and I know better than you and you should do this or that because I'm super awesome")

but

"hey modders, there are issues, what would you think you can do to improve the situation for the greater good of the whole community ?"

or

"hey modders, do you think there are issues with what we have now ? What are your issues and what could you offer to fix them or what would you like to get to help you fix them ?"

Of course, when we are deep inside something, we finally loose the ability to see what was outside our scope, what could be done differently. At least I am, and I'm not different for others, and new comers will not have their vision altered by a knowledge they don't have, they can see new paths where we see only dead-ends.

And a forum is definitely not the best way to share content, especially like the way it is on KSP forums, if we have a single post locked thread (or only authors can modify, but no more than 1 post allowed) for releases, and a forum dedicated to talks, bug reports, ... it would prevent content to disappear deep inside the whole thing just after a few days.

(off-topic: it would be great if people stop misuse thread rating as well, a good content can be advertise in a very bad thread, a deserve a low rating, while a poor content can be well advertise in a nice thread)

[southernrock]

The OP is basically dreaming. However, I speculate that when multiplayer is introduced the game has to address mod consistency issues, by which time there will be enough reasons to develop a mod-manager. Take a look at another geeky sandbox game: ArmA.

meh, like usual, nothing will get done with something like this. It isnt dreaming, considering their are in fact managers out their that will do what we like that take near zero effort from the authors, all we need is a better system of organization and delivery. The problem is the fact that people are stubborn and not willing to compromise on anything. They are set in their ways. Until that happens, mods will continue to get buried and updating from new releases will continue to be a pita. Ill limit my mods to a handful so it doesnt take me an entire afternoon when things break.

[TheAlmightyOS]

Talks goes wrong maybe because the core question was wrongly created, IMHO, it would not be

"hey modders, there are issues with what we have now, you should do this or that, what do yo think ?"

(potential "between the lines" misinterpreted meaning: you're doing all wrong, I'm new and I know better than you and you should do this or that because I'm super awesome")

but

"hey modders, there are issues, what would you think you can do to improve the situation for the greater good of the whole community ?"

or

"hey modders, do you think there are issues with what we have now ? What are your issues and what could you offer to fix them or what would you like to get to help you fix them ?"

Of course, when we are deep inside something, we finally loose the ability to see what was outside our scope, what could be done differently. At least I am, and I'm not different for others, and new comers will not have their vision altered by a knowledge they don't have, they can see new paths where we see only dead-ends.

And a forum is definitely not the best way to share content, especially like the way it is on KSP forums, if we have a single post locked thread (or only authors can modify, but no more than 1 post allowed) for releases, and a forum dedicated to talks, bug reports, ... it would prevent content to disappear deep inside the whole thing just after a few days.

(off-topic: it would be great if people stop misuse thread rating as well, a good content can be advertise in a very bad thread, a deserve a low rating, while a poor content can be well advertise in a nice thread)

I think this is what I have been fighting from the beginning. I really fudged up the wording in the beginning (didn't help that I was pissed) and now I am public enemy number one. Not going to give up though. I might not be very good at this but I am persistent.

[camlost]

meh, like usual, nothing will get done with something like this. It isnt dreaming, considering their are in fact managers out their that will do what we like that take near zero effort from the authors, all we need is a better system of organization and delivery. The problem is the fact that people are stubborn and not willing to compromise on anything. They are set in their ways. Until that happens, mods will continue to get buried and updating from new releases will continue to be a pita. Ill limit my mods to a handful so it doesnt take me an entire afternoon when things break.

On the contrary, most modders are willing to use an "official" hub if it was easy and works. However, SpacePort is cancelled and Curse is really bad, it's Squad to blame

[southernrock]

On the contrary, most modders are willing to use an "official" hub if it was easy and works. However, SpacePort is cancelled and Curse is really bad, it's Squad to blame

And yet, 90% of the ruckos on this thread is, no most modders arent willing to change over or do anything for that matter because it is them who are volenteering their time to make the mods, and they arent doing it for the users, but themselves, and this is all but a stupid request and their actually is no problem. Thats how it seems to me anyways. And its not about blame, thats not what we are trying to do, we are trying to suggest a better method than what we have. It doesnt matter how we got in this postion, all that matters is where we are and how we proceed forward.

Edited August 5, 2014 by southernrock

[Tuareg]

actually i feel op is right. as a modder myself i prefer steam workshop over everything else. why? its extra job for me to upload the newest on top of the old one, it forces general licences on me (not like if i would care, there are far more than enough options) but... it is organised, its automatically available for everybody signed up, its always up-to-date. i, to be honest, dont use any ksp mods just because im fed up scrolling through 200 pages of outdated mods and manually downloading unpacking copying trying to follow what is updated checking back every day if there is a new version (hidden on the 3rd 4th page behind older versions of the same mod) etc... my skyrim has about 3 pages of modlist in the modmanager (with my owns included) and i never have to care, if i go back to play it, i just install the game and it checks if it has the up-to-date mods and at first start it will kick off with all of them included.

When has the entirety of any group of people ever had the exact same opinion? I'd wager, never.

You want world peace? But that would bankrupt the weapons industry!

I would be happy to see the weapon industry going bankrupt and all those ever created any weapons starve to ***

[TheAlmightyOS]

On the contrary, most modders are willing to use an "official" hub if it was easy and works. However, SpacePort is cancelled and Curse is really bad, it's Squad to blame

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/88733

You (unfortunately) do not speak for most modders here. Link goes to my first public reaming on this issue.

You are right though. Curse is bad and Squad should have done their homework before handing it off