0.25 Discussion thread

[Magion]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned since the Squadcast is the better look we got at the new structure between the runway and SPH. It looks to be three horizontal fuel tanks and a water tower-like structure. I wonder if this serves any in-game function or if it was just added as something likely to be crashed into during landings, revealing the destructible buildings.

I've also seen the similar structure (just without the tower) next to the railroad from the VAB, but I don't think it has a special function.

[CptRichardson]

No, it does not destroy the game if it is one sidestep. Then it just delays developing. But I am sure that building crash models and animation have taken hundreds if not thousands of workhours and it is very little thing in game. Bang for the buck is ridiculously low. And they say that it is base work for something bigger, so it seems that they have no intention to develop interesting parts of game in the near future. I fear now really, that their "large artistic project" will be some stupid KSC bling bling instead of desperately needed complete overhaul of planets. I can not imagine any interesting feature in space traveling game which needs building crashes. Game have already collision detection and to all gameplay purposes some kind of information "Object A hit building B. Damage: 45 % Rebuild cost: 50000 money." is enough. It would have been work of one day.

I could understand it better, if it was last polish to almost ready game, but now there is huge amount of much more important basic work to do. Most planets have very simple graphics and topography. Aerodynamic model is awful. Orbital predictions are inaccurate. And there are tens of minor issues in alpha phase, which are in same category as realistic building damage.

Well, we know that some part of this has to do with the secret feature for .26

And, we know that .26 is the largest art feature they have yet put in, which suggests that between destructable and reconstructable buildings that the .26 feature may be kolonization.

[Spartwo]

Bac9 pointed out some problems with the building about a month ago. You should look at it (page 7) It's sad they weren't addressed.

[Hannu]

You're overreacting and over-thinking this. By a lot..

Elaborate please. As I said, I understand that Squad thinks money, but as a customer I can say my opinion and I hope that all who think same way as I would say it. It is the only way to tell to Squad what I want and if enough people agree me Squad can take it into account when they decide what to do next. I have understood that Squad is interested in customer's opinions. And of course, if even more people want spectacular explosions and do not care about planets or nerdy stuff, then things develop to that direction and nobody cares about my opinion.

I tried to be quite correct. If my text looks too aggressive or impolite it may result from the fact that english is not my native language.

[Beale]

Bac9 pointed out some problems with the building about a month ago. You should look at it (page 7) It's sad they weren't addressed.

Wow, a huge shame they didn't take on his advice.

Especially, you'll be hard pressed to find a person who didn't like the existing KSC when it first appeared.

Below - infographic made by bac9

It looks like he made a solid framework for Squad to continue making buildings of the same style and they haven't quite followed it.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Beale

[SelectHalfling0]

Destructible buildings are not the beginning of a Kerbal FPS. They are merely the result of what actually happens when "unplanned dis-assembly on the launchpad" occurs. If you don't believe me, watch a couple of failed NASA launches and what is left of the launch tower after a major failure.

[Hannu]

This is ridiculous. You're acting like they've removed some realistic element to appeal to a new audience. Are buildings indestructible in real life?

As far as I know, buildings inside radius of several kilometers around launchpad are mainly bunkers which are resistant to most accidents. Building halls or other normal buildings are much farther than in KSC and if it seems that rocket deviates dangerously from nominal trajectory, authorities will explode it before it hits to anything. I have never heard that any other important building than launchpad itself have damaged in real world rocket accident.

No, they did not remove anything, but I have waited over year that there would be something really interesting for me in updates and somewhat frustrated to situation.

[SelectHalfling0]

This is Kerbal World. They are known for having a love of explosions, and no form of safety whatsoever.

[Parkaboy]

Elaborate please. As I said, I understand that Squad thinks money, but as a customer I can say my opinion and I hope that all who think same way as I would say it. It is the only way to tell to Squad what I want and if enough people agree me Squad can take it into account when they decide what to do next. I have understood that Squad is interested in customer's opinions. And of course, if even more people want spectacular explosions and do not care about planets or nerdy stuff, then things develop to that direction and nobody cares about my opinion.

I tried to be quite correct. If my text looks too aggressive or impolite it may result from the fact that english is not my native language.

If I can add to the discussion, I must say that from my point of view it does seem that you're overreacting a bit. You basically said that Squad seemed ready to throw away everything that made the game a unique space sim game, trading everything for generic arcade elements. From my interpretation of what you said, your argument sounds like:

KSP is deviating from my view of a pure space simulation --> therefore, it is becoming an arcade game.

It sounds like you're overreacting because a game of the simulation genre isn't the same thing as a simulation. It has game elements, and therefore tends to be less "realistic" than a pure simulation. Also, destructible buildings can even be argued to be a feature that adds realism.

KSP isn't throwing away what makes it unique. Even from a business point of view, that would be stupid. It's just fulfilling its scope as a simulation game. This tend to bother some people who were used to the simulation elements that were already present, but not to the game elements that were intended to be added.

[Tw1]

I could understand it better, if it was last polish to almost ready game, but now there is huge amount of much more important basic work to do. Most planets have very simple graphics and topography. Aerodynamic model is awful. Orbital predictions are inaccurate. And there are tens of minor issues in alpha phase, which are in same category as realistic building damage.

Mostly, I have to agree. It seems strange to have set up this feature now.

They could have worked on the female kerbal, so one could have done one of the roles in the administration building.

The planets need fleshing out. There's not a lot of purposeful things do when you get there, and have clicked off your science and contract parts.

They could have worked on adding more biomes, more situations, and more things to do with your instruments, so it's worth spending time at the spots you visit.

Bac9 pointed out some problems with the building about a month ago. You should look at it (page 7) It's sad they weren't addressed.

It is a pity they did/could? not hire him to work on this one two. He designed the originals, he knows them like no other.

[Frank_G]

Well, destructible buildings are nice, and the announcement, that this is something big which will make .26 even more awesome is good to know.

I would have liked impact craters more, but before lamenting, lets wait and see where this will lead. The explosions look great so far. Well done!

Concerning the things mentioned above, concerning the model and texturing of the admin building, i totally agree, but as .26 will get an mayor art

upgrade / work over, i am looking forward to see several graphical issues fixed in the next upcoming update. I guess, some of that can be already seen

in the new spaceplane parts.

[klgraham1013]

They did say it would be a small feature that would lead to something bigger. Not sure why anyone thought otherwise or had their expectations to high. I assume this will lead to building upgrades, which could add a nice management sim element to the game. Also, buildings exploding is fitting with the Kerbal mythology which has been built over the years. A mythology that has been primarily built by fans. Moar Boosters didn't come from the game, mind you. If I were the devs, I would have expected this to actually go over fairly well with the community.

[Hannu]

If I can add to the discussion, I must say that from my point of view it does seem that you're overreacting a bit. You basically said that Squad seemed ready to throw away everything that made the game a unique space sim game, trading everything for generic arcade elements.

OK. That "they remove gravity" sentence was overreaction and exaggregated.

It has game elements, and therefore tends to be less "realistic" than a pure simulation. Also, destructible buildings can even be argued to be a feature that adds realism.

I did not write about realism. I understand that destructible buildings, limited budgets etc. are realistic things. In real space exploration money is absolutely worst bottleneck. If you get practically unlimited money supply from superpower's budget you can do anything in a decade, as we saw in 1960's. But they are not things that I want to add space travel game. At least before all space things are ready and in high level. There are beautiful planets, interesting and as realistic as practically possible physics (including atmospheric effects, possible clouds and weather), several technical resources to manage (why boring money instead of living supplies). And also more tehchical stuff, porkchop calculator should be essential part of space travel game, better than MechJeb level information windows and control functions etc. After that one can think how about nice explosion animations and complicated buildings around launchpad. Of course it is just my opinion and I understand that most people likes very different things.

[mike9606]

OK. That "they remove gravity" sentence was overreaction and exaggregated.

I did not write about realism. I understand that destructible buildings, limited budgets etc. are realistic things. In real space exploration money is absolutely worst bottleneck. If you get practically unlimited money supply from superpower's budget you can do anything in a decade, as we saw in 1960's. But they are not things that I want to add space travel game. At least before all space things are ready and in high level. There are beautiful planets, interesting and as realistic as practically possible physics (including atmospheric effects, possible clouds and weather), several technical resources to manage (why boring money instead of living supplies). And also more tehchical stuff, porkchop calculator should be essential part of space travel game, better than MechJeb level information windows and control functions etc. After that one can think how about nice explosion animations and complicated buildings around launchpad. Of course it is just my opinion and I understand that most people likes very different things.

IF you don't want to have to deal with budgets, there is science mode AKA Career Mode as it was in .23.5, and Sandbox if you want to have access to all parts right away.

[War Eagle 1]

So now that the majority of .25 has been revealed, do we have an ETA on it?

[Parkaboy]

From the way MaxMaps talked about it, we might be really close. I think we're going to see videos from the media team popping up this week, and possibly a release date announced. Unless there's some setback, I think we might get the update in a couple of weeks at most.

[skeevy]

OK. That "they remove gravity" sentence was overreaction and exaggregated.

I did not write about realism. I understand that destructible buildings, limited budgets etc. are realistic things. In real space exploration money is absolutely worst bottleneck. If you get practically unlimited money supply from superpower's budget you can do anything in a decade, as we saw in 1960's. But they are not things that I want to add space travel game. At least before all space things are ready and in high level. There are beautiful planets, interesting and as realistic as practically possible physics (including atmospheric effects, possible clouds and weather), several technical resources to manage (why boring money instead of living supplies). And also more tehchical stuff, porkchop calculator should be essential part of space travel game, better than MechJeb level information windows and control functions etc. After that one can think how about nice explosion animations and complicated buildings around launchpad. Of course it is just my opinion and I understand that most people likes very different things.

Or maybe destructible buildings is the first phase in all those things that you're wanting. Squad has said many times that they're trying to implement all the features they want and do the fine tuning near the end/close to release. Destructible buildings now means the next update (0.26 I guess) could include building new space centers and/or off-world bases (which is definitely needed in stock KSP without having to resort to mods like Karbonite/MKS/KerbTown). Right now it might only be some eye-candy, but it has the potential to evolve into much more since, to me, it's the logical first step in setting up a framework for adding new buildings -- I think the community as a whole would complain more about having new buildings and/or building new ones if there wasn't some sort of risk to having them or the new buildings were too over powered because you can't screw up and destroy your newly built Mun Base because you suck at landing in airless environments. Just imagine screwing up a plane launch, crashing into the VAB, and not being able to build rockets for a few game weeks while it gets repaired -- While I'd like the more technical stuff and controls you describe, I know that there are mods to use in the mean time that cover most of those complaints as well as the fact that Squad just might be waiting for Unity 5 before they start adding in more serious features or revamping the old ones.

Personally, if I were gonna make a KSP complaint it would be -- I'd rather Squad did a feature freeze with 0.25 and switch to porting that to Unity 5 beta for future releases. I say feature freeze because that allows for bug fix releases and whatnot while also allowing those of us who want to help and produce logs run the Unity 5 version. It could be a bit of a fustercluck, but if U5b KSP testing didn't allow mods, that would clear quite a bit of that up. Once that testing version is released as, say, 0.26, modding would be allowed again. I say no mods for testing so any crashes, bugs, etc would all be from what Squad is releasing.

I run Linux x64 (Mint 17 XFCE) and can install a ton of mods with little issues so I can wait and be patient until Squad gets around to U5, but, like I said, if I had a complaint, Squad not switching to Unity 5 Beta would be it...though it is in Beta so I can completely understand why they haven't. If you (anybody) run Windows and have about 30GB of hdd space to spare (maybe a bit more for a swap partition), you should look into GParted and making a partition for Ubuntu/Mint for playing KSP. My current Mint XFCE system is 16.2 GB on /root, 200mb on /boot, and an 8gb swap (equal to my ram) and that includes plenty of non-stock apps, working Netflix with both Chrome and pipelight, and AMD's 14.9 Catalyst drivers (yes, those exist for Linux). It only takes an hours time and that includes partitioning the HDD, installing Linux (it's literally clickity, click, click, fill a form, click, click with Ubuntu/Mint), installing Steam, and downloading and installing KSP (provided your internet doesn't suck). Getting back to where you were is as simple as mounting your Windows partition, copy/pasting all installed mods (everything under GameData except Squad and NasaMission), and the "saves/your saved games" and "Ships" (selecting don't overwrite existing files...not sure if the Linux defaut ships are the same as the Windows versions) folders in the root KSP directory. You could probably just copy/paste GameData, saves, and Ships and select the "don't overwrite existing files" feature.

Heh, found an AMD beta driver when posting looking for the 14.9 link

Catalyst 14.9 (version 14.201.1009)

Catalyst OpenCL2 (version 14.201.xxxx) newer than above, what I currently have installed

Catalyst 14.50 beta (version 14.50.xxxx) newest, what I'm about to install after I click post; see comments of article for install instructions

[Flyer10254]

This is getting ridiculous...I have been away for some time from the forums because I wanted things to cool down after they scrapped resources. I'm sad to say not much has changed. There are a few people still on the forums that seem to be here to help but the majority of what I've read over the last few days has shown me that the vocal majority of forum users are not. To be completely honest it's no wonder why Squad hasn't given the forums a road map, they don't want their vision of THEIR GAME dictated by others. If these people really wanted to encourage Squad they would have been excited to see the POTENTIAL in this latest developement. And to all those who feel butt hurt about destructible buildings, K.M.A. Also Rowsdower's original hypetrain thread was for THE ENTIRE UPDATE. It was the users who hyped up the secret feature, NOT Squad. So if there is anyone to blame for ANY OF THIS it's the users! So get off your high horses and hype vehicles and go practice crashing jeb into the VAB.

[Moderator Comment - Edited by the Moderation Team]

Edited September 27, 2014 by KasperVld

[Red Iron Crown]

It was the users who hyped up the secret feature, NOT Squad. So if there is anyone to blame for ANY OF THIS it's the users! So get off your high horses and hype vehicles and go practice crashing jeb into the VAB.

Hype was inevitable when the feature was announced but made secret. Squad could have avoided any hype by just revealing what it was upfront or leaving it as a complete surprise. That is if they felt hype was a bad thing, which I would suggest they do not.

[Flyer10254]

That's not the point Redcrown, they were excited about their feature, they wanted the rest of us to be excited too, honestly all this negative reinforcement is only going to make Squad retreat away from the forums even more, why do you think we never see any progress posts from the devs anymore? We scared em off. People ought to realize that there are actual people on the other end of these posts. And how would you feel if your life's project got ridiculed and criticized every step of the way.

[Red Iron Crown]

That's not the point Redcrown, they were excited about their feature, they wanted the rest of us to be excited too, honestly all this negative reinforcement is only going to make Squad retreat away from the forums even more, why do you think we never see any progress posts from the devs anymore? We scared em off. People ought to realize that there are actual people on the other end of these posts. And how would you feel if your life's project got ridiculed and criticized every step of the way.

While I agree that they are more reticent about information to curb community reactions (fairly inevitable after the whole resources thing), I think you are not giving Squad enough credit. I think their skins are thick enough to deal with some criticism, they certainly have enough experience with it by now. And the dev updates have been much more communicative leading up to this release.

[Friend Bear]

While I agree that they are more reticent about information to curb community reactions (fairly inevitable after the whole resources thing), I think you are not giving Squad enough credit. I think their skins are thick enough to deal with some criticism, they certainly have enough experience with it by now. And the dev updates have been much more communicative leading up to this release.

I wholly agree. Criticism is used to build future promotions, creation, implementation, and overall gameplay. If it wasn't, this forum wouldn't be here in many aspects.

But it is direct, insulting criticism, such as "I can't believe you did buildings" that really show no benefit. Why can't you believe that? What could they have done otherwise? I see a lot of posts here complaining; that they should have fixed existing issues (might I remind you this is approaching .25...not 1.25). Yet not one of them mentioned any of those issues individually, or even as a collection. That would be proper.

Just scared this crowd is turning into the League of Legends community where anger is dished constantly with no gain or understanding yet surprisingly promoted by all the other ignorant posters supporting negative feedback (I hesitate to use the word, "feedback").

Edited September 27, 2014 by Friend Bear

[Friend Bear]

I think the worst part are the people who complain here are the same people who say they cannot make it into orbit with mechjeb, etc.

This is by no means an insult directed at people legitimately having trouble. All the luck too you; figuring all that out is the fun part of the game. But what I posted is what I have seen. If you know you are not included in that group, then you are correct to think so.

For most, if not all of you, try to enjoy what there is and even master it if you wish. Enjoy addons that do a hell of a good job implementing months of labor. This is why the team is working on the core of the game...Addons add a lot that would take, themselves, months to implement. Play them if you really want more.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Friend Bear

[Friend Bear]

A lot of the helpful posts are correct. Destructable buildings is one of the easiest things to implement in the long line of code they wish to introduce concerning collision and actuated effects, such as what Firespitter does for mods and cargo bay doors.

You bought an early access game. Help them grow it rather than give them reason to employ more people to quell the unnecessary rage growing in the forums.

[Friend Bear]

This team is rocking. Honestly, so many posters have not taken the time to even assume what goes into programming something like this. It isn't simple VB "If ..., then ..." It takes a long time, and code can disrupt code, etc.