0.25 Discussion thread

[GusTurbo]

That's not the point Redcrown, they were excited about their feature, they wanted the rest of us to be excited too, honestly all this negative reinforcement is only going to make Squad retreat away from the forums even more, why do you think we never see any progress posts from the devs anymore? We scared em off. People ought to realize that there are actual people on the other end of these posts. And how would you feel if your life's project got ridiculed and criticized every step of the way.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[KasperVld]

A lot of the helpful posts are correct. Destructable buildings is one of the easiest things to implement in the long line of code they wish to introduce concerning collision and actuated effects, such as what Firespitter does for mods and cargo bay doors.

You bought an early access game. Help them grow it rather than give them reason to employ more people to quell the unnecessary rage growing in the forums.

The thing is though, as many people as there are on the forums that's how many different views of what the game should be exist. I think a lot of people will like the new feature and some won't. That's fine, and I can understand their disappointment after the hype buildup. The only thing I don't agree with is when people state their Squad is doing a bad job developing a game because it doesn't suit their specific view of what the game should be, or where priorities should be. Disappointment is completely understandable but I can't connect the dots between that and the intensity of criticism that sometimes finds its way to the internet.

[Unabled]

I set my expectations pretty low based off the conditions Max had listed... So I was expecting something very small but maybe kinda cool, or gave the game world a bit more life. To see so much work on what was supposed to be such a small feature was pretty incredible. Destructible buildings was really not something I expected they would be able to pull off.

I'll say, landings with my space planes are going to be much more hairy!

I think that runway damage needs to be tweaked though, from the stream the damage looked far larger than the runway but I know this is all a work in progress.

I understand what everyone has been feeling from the reveal. For me it wasn't what the feature was, but what it seems to be leading towards: upgradeable buildings. Yes that would be neat and all, but I had to be honest with myself; I am still waiting for "my patch", which would be a beautification patch doing for the planets and moons what was done with the Mun.

For me the saddest moment was finding out my awaited feature, enhanced exhaust effects, was being pushed to .26. Dang!

And so my wait continues...

Edited September 27, 2014 by Unabled
tablets...

[Renegrade]

Just for the record, I don't think this destructible building stuff is BAD, it's just underwhelming.

As a case in point, I'm more excited about other features in the 0.25 update, such as difficulty scaling.

Hype was inevitable when the feature was announced but made secret. Squad could have avoided any hype by just revealing what it was upfront or leaving it as a complete surprise. That is if they felt hype was a bad thing, which I would suggest they do not.

^ this here is what we call 'constructive criticism'. It identifies a problem, without ridicule, and generously offers a possible solution. Anybody at any time should be willing and able to accept this kind of criticism with grace.

And yeah, if they'd kept it as a surprise instead of a secret, those of us who find it underwhelming would have given it at least a golf clap of mild approval. Sales people back at my place of work would jabber on about "memory markers". A light surprise would be a positive event, likely a non-marker, but the hype that naturally sprung up around the 'secret' resulted in that whiplash shown in the hype cycle graph (that gets posted here from time to time), giving a number of people negative "memory markers".

And now it's filling the forums up with babble in both directions, completely overshadowing the difficulty settings and the admin building and such.

So Squad, next time: Surprises, not secrets. And g₀/thrust correction.

[Friend Bear]

For me the saddest moment was finding out my awaited feature, enhanced exhaust effects, was being pushed to .26. Dang!

And so my wait continues...

I feel ya. Way stoked on that. But you pointed out the most important thing....

What we all want in this game is on its way. Whether its in .25 or .85.

I will say this and hopefully you all agree. There is a reason this team is programming it and not something like Activision...Because we want a good product and not just an old, reskinned game selling for $60 and happily being bought because console kids won't try new, actually good games that sell for less. (Yes...Call of Duty jab because it is terrible)

Squad, you rock.

You are building a game we actually want and not one you tell us to want.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Friend Bear

[Red Iron Crown]

^ this here is what we call 'constructive criticism'. It identifies a problem, without ridicule, and generously offers a possible solution. Anybody at any time should be willing and able to accept this kind of criticism with grace.

It wasn't really criticism even. I was just suggesting that it's not fair to blame the users for getting hyped when the info was released in such a way as to generate hype. Hype is not necessarily bad IMO, and the way info is doled out suggests that Squad wants to generate a bit of hype with each release. All part of the PR game.

I definitely agree with Friend Bear's point that there's a big difference between "I don't find this feature worthwhile, why was it important?" and "OMG Squad are a bunch of clowns for implementing this!". Useful feedback, even if negative, is useful. Inflammatory feedback is much less so.

[Friend Bear]

Useful feedback, even if negative, is useful. Inflammatory feedback is much less so.

Exactly where I am on that, as well. Unfortunate people feel the need to turn on their computer, log into the forums, and take the time expel a unrealistic and truly non-existent anger. Pretty absurd people get a rise out of making defamatory comments.

[EnderSpace]

Exactly where I am on that, as well. Unfortunate people feel the need to turn on their computer, log into the forums, and take the time expel a unrealistic and truly non-existent anger. Pretty absurd people get a rise out of making defamatory comments.

That is true

[skeevy]

The thing is though, as many people as there are on the forums that's how many different views of what the game should be exist. I think a lot of people will like the new feature and some won't. That's fine, and I can understand their disappointment after the hype buildup. The only thing I don't agree with is when people state their Squad is doing a bad job developing a game because it doesn't suit their specific view of what the game should be, or where priorities should be. Disappointment is completely understandable but I can't connect the dots between that and the intensity of criticism that sometimes finds its way to the internet.

I like the new feature because I see it as a stepping stone for future features. In my previous Wall-of-Text I stated as much.

The blame critics do get old, though a lot of us can be accused of that whether we were meaning to or not -- especially non-English people typing in English...I imagine that I might not come off clearly typing or Google Translating a post to a French forum (I don't speak/read French). I can even be accused of being a priority ass because I stated that I'd prefer ya'll to switch focus to Unity 5 and feature freeze 0.25 (except bug fixes) until that's done; then again, I also stated that I understood why ya'll aren't (it's in Beta and possible user confusion) as well as suggesting using 64 bit Linux over ANY bit Windows with a basic guide on how to import all KSP Windows mods/saves/ships over to Linux KSP (pretty much it's just copy/paste a few folders and skipping what's stock). There are fine lines between discussion, suggestions, criticism, and being an ass; and they're really easy to cross when all one sees is text and can't hear emotion in a voice. That's why, using my previous post as an example of this, I listed something that I'd like done and why I don't think ya'll are doing it because I'm hoping that I'll be understood as a person that wants a feature but is also patient and understands the reasons of why not.

I can connect those dots pretty easily for ya (IMHO) -- nobody really knows other people online. That allows one to come to the internet and spew all sorts of trash while not really thinking of the consequences of their words. When actions don't have consequences more than "I've been banned...time for a new forum account", it doesn't give one much incentive to be a decent person.

[Friend Bear]

I can connect those dots pretty easily for ya (IMHO) -- nobody really knows other people online. That allows one to come to the internet and spew all sorts of trash while not really thinking of the consequences of their words. When actions don't have consequences more than "I've been banned...time for a new forum account", it doesn't give one much incentive to be a decent person.

I think most of us are aware these are the reasons behind lots of online indecent acts. But the real problem is that people feel the actual drive to do it. Punishment is great...but that is what I hate about those people. They need punishment to stop. They aren't deterred, and no one is stopping them.

Maybe its maturity, and I am really not trying to jab too hard at this, but I feel absolutely no reason to post negative things. In fact, I feel terrible at even considering it or considering why someone would feel compelled to do it.

What we are doing is empowering them. Just ignore them. I do, its easy. Almost none of them followup on their posts or reply to responses. They just want to get the initial one and troll. Kids are predictable.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Friend Bear

[skeevy]

OMG Squad sux. Wherz my magikal unicorn for JeB to rid with 700000 thrust? What a wsate of an udate

(Please read that in jest. With all the serious discussion about complaints currently going on, I though a funny, ridiculous complaint was due. )

[Renegrade]

It wasn't really criticism even. I was just suggesting that it's not fair to blame the users for getting hyped when the info was released in such a way as to generate hype. Hype is not necessarily bad IMO, and the way info is doled out suggests that Squad wants to generate a bit of hype with each release. All part of the PR game.

Well, it was indeed couched in conditionals, but it was still a (constructive) criticism if Squad is alarmed by the hype crash and want to avoid it in the future.

Regarding hype being not necessarily bad, that all depends. The Sales guys were really emphatic about the 'memory marker' business, and they repeatedly said that negative ones are to be avoided at all cost since they're proportionally stronger and longer lasting than positive ones. If you can deliver on the hype (at least to a vast majority), all the more power to you, but if not.. ouch. Danger ZOoOoooNe!

(NB: this was several years ago, and 'memory marker' is possibly a mondegreen, and very probably wearing a new buzzword these days, but it's a valid concept in my experience)

I definitely agree with Friend Bear's point that there's a big difference between "I don't find this feature worthwhile, why was it important?" and "OMG Squad are a bunch of clowns for implementing this!". Useful feedback, even if negative, is useful. Inflammatory feedback is much less so.

That is indeed a fair and proper stance. Balanced, rational feedback is important. Trash-talking or rabid fanboyism is utterly inappropriate.

[Friend Bear]

OMG Squad sux. Wherz my magikal unicorn for JeB to rid with 700000 thrust? What a wsate of an udate

So demanding! God get a grip! Ripping on Squad like that.

[Ted]

So, this appears to be as good a thread as any to post the following in. As with everything that we disclose, folks, please do remember that things do change.

In 0.25, the Win64 build is actually more unstable than in 0.24.x.

Whereas in 0.24.x we'd see it being pretty reliable with stock but crashing with add-ons/plugins, in 0.25 it crashes for nearly everyone and almost at the exact same point. We've spent a significant amount of time in Experimentals, both on a tester and developer side, looking into it, chasing leads, narrowing down reproduction cases and generally digging deeper and deeper into probable causes. However, despite the efforts of a handful of the testers who have tirelessly (and I mean tirelessly) worked on it since the beginning of Experimentals, we have yet to hammer this one out, find the cause and fix it. The dastardly issue that causes it to crash still eludes us.

Believe me, this frustrates no-one more than myself, the testers who've worked so hard on the issue and, without a doubt, the developers. However, sometimes we have to bite the bullet, call it a day and concentrate on the issues that effect all platforms. Until such a point where this issue is at least narrowed down to a specific cause, if not fixed, 0.25 Win64 will continue to be extremely unstable for many. We'll hopefully have something sorted out for the release that is beneficial to all.

My apologies that the win64 build has such issues, but rest assured we work tirelessly to hammer 'em out!

Hope you can all still enjoy the rest of the delicious update when the time comes.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Ted

[skeevy]

I think most of us are aware these are the reasons behind lots of online indecent acts. But the real problem is that people feel the actual drive to do it. Punishment is great...but that is what I hate about those people. They need punishment to stop. They aren't deterred, and no one is stopping them.

What we are doing is empowering them. Just ignore them. I do, its easy. Almost none of them followup on their posts or reply to responses. They just want to get the initial one and troll. Kids are predictable.

I ignore them too...er, I try to anyways. There are some good trolls out there.

I know a good punishment -- If they can link a forum account to purchase account -- NO UPDATE FOR YOU. That's even worse than not getting any soup.

Obviously that's not a realistic punishment...but it would be funny seeing the look on someone's face when this pops up when they click update -- "You called Max a poopyface and stated immoral comments about Squad developers' Mothers . Because of that, you are ineligible for the next 2 updates. Please continue playing 0.24.2 while the rest of us are having fun with 0.25. Have a nice day."

[Friend Bear]

Understandable but too bad. I hope its fixed soon (an understandably once it is done). Got 16g ram to feed my 20+ addons.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol I love that. Would be interesting writing the terms of agreement for it though but I like the idea. Hell, they already bought the game.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Friend Bear

[skeevy]

Understandable but too bad. I hope its fixed soon (an understandably once it is done so, reasonably). Got 16g ram to feed my 20+ addons.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol I love that. Would be interesting writing the terms of agreement for it though but I like the idea. Hell, they already bought the game.

Do you have Linux installed? It lets me use the most of my 8GB of ram and runs much better than Windows x64. If not, for an experienced Linux user, you can have KSP Linux up-and-running with all your mods in about an hour or two depending on internet speed. All you really need is a blank storage medium (cdr, dvdr, usbstick, etc) and about 30-40 GB hdd space. I recommend Linux Mint 17 over Ubuntu 14.04 or 14.10 and installing graphics drivers from the vendor's website. Right now, I'm somewhere around the 50+ mods mark and I don't even need Active Texture Management even though I do use it -- I wish ATM would have fixed the KSO just installed too much crap alongside the other 50 mods I have slowdown...not blaming KSO for that.

Importing all your Windows saves, mods, etc is just a few simple copy/paste jobs. All you have to do is delete the ATM texture cache and you're good to go (or at least I was).

[Renegrade]

In 0.25, the Win64 build is actually more unstable than in 0.24.x.

I made a joke earlier in one of the threads (or on twitch? I forget) about the secret feature being that 64-bit Windohs support was removed. Heh~

Whereas in 0.24.x we'd see it being pretty reliable with stock but crashing with add-ons/plugins, in 0.25 it crashes for nearly everyone and almost at the exact same point.

The whole point of 64-bit would be to run lots of mods, so I generally just run the Win32 edition because of the above, personally. This won't impact me very much. Some others who are more.. crash tolerant might not be pleased though.

I hope we can avoid delaying 0.25 for this though. This sounds like something that would be best handled in 0.25.1.

Also, I hear Unity 5 will be addressing a lot of 64-bit concerns as well as improved multithreading and such. I would GUESS that 0.26 will NOT be on Unity 5, and that would have to be 0.27+, and I'd hate for Unity 5 support to be delayed because we're still patching up some really old Unity 4 issues ... or in other words, Unity 5 will alias any fixes that are being done now... >.<

[xtoro]

@Ted, I hope the Linux 64bit is fine... Otherwise I'll be keeping 24.2...

Do you have Linux installed? It lets me use the most of my 8GB of ram and runs much better than Windows x64. If not, for an experienced Linux user, you can have KSP Linux up-and-running with all your mods in about an hour or two depending on internet speed. All you really need is a blank storage medium (cdr, dvdr, usbstick, etc) and about 30-40 GB hdd space. I recommend Linux Mint 17 over Ubuntu 14.04 or 14.10 and installing graphics drivers from the vendor's website. Right now, I'm somewhere around the 50+ mods mark and I don't even need Active Texture Management even though I do use it -- I wish ATM would have fixed the KSO just installed too much crap alongside the other 50 mods I have slowdown...not blaming KSO for that.

Importing all your Windows saves, mods, etc is just a few simple copy/paste jobs. All you have to do is delete the ATM texture cache and you're good to go (or at least I was).

I've only ever run KSP on Linux 64-bit. Tried on Windows once and it was horrible! So many crashes... I use Kubuntu with the latest opensource graphics drivers included in the OS install and have no problems. Also running about 50 mods. And I love that I can go into the processes and pause/resume KSP for when I'm not using it... I never actually exit the game, I just put it to sleep!

Long Live Linux!

[Friend Bear]

Do you have Linux installed? It lets me use the most of my 8GB of ram and runs much better than Windows x64. If not, for an experienced Linux user, you can have KSP Linux up-and-running with all your mods in about an hour or two depending on internet speed. All you really need is a blank storage medium (cdr, dvdr, usbstick, etc) and about 30-40 GB hdd space. I recommend Linux Mint 17 over Ubuntu 14.04 or 14.10 and installing graphics drivers from the vendor's website. Right now, I'm somewhere around the 50+ mods mark and I don't even need Active Texture Management even though I do use it -- I wish ATM would have fixed the KSO just installed too much crap alongside the other 50 mods I have slowdown...not blaming KSO for that.

Importing all your Windows saves, mods, etc is just a few simple copy/paste jobs. All you have to do is delete the ATM texture cache and you're good to go (or at least I was).

Not an experienced Linux user nor do I have it. From what I know of it, my comp has too much hardware to benefit from linux over windows, so idk.

[Hannu]

Or maybe destructible buildings is the first phase in all those things that you're wanting. Squad has said many times that they're trying to implement all the features they want and do the fine tuning near the end/close to release. Destructible buildings now means the next update (0.26 I guess) could include building new space centers and/or off-world bases (which is definitely needed in stock KSP without having to resort to mods like Karbonite/MKS/KerbTown).

I hope so but I think still that this is very odd order for implementing things. I would have done game functionality first. Fancy destruction animations are not necessary to making new buildings or even damaging them. Buildings could be simple boxes and damages percentages (maybe we could have pictures for intact building, damaged but partly working and completely useless) and nice models and animations could be things of last visual polish.

Just imagine screwing up a plane launch, crashing into the VAB, and not being able to build rockets for a few game weeks while it gets repaired

I can imagine. But with current game it is time acceleration and one minute waiting. If you miss a launch window then you wait couple of minutes to next one.

It is just what I try to say. My opinion is that functionality should be first. Time should have real effect to game before it is possible to use time penalty against bad playing. I agree, that time should have more value in game, but it would need living supply resources, finite lifetime of components, long planning and building times of spacecrafts, tightly deadlined contracts etc. So that kerbals die and vessels age in space or you get contract breaking fee if you miss a planned launch window because you damaged the assembly hall. After that it is time to think accurate damage models and nice crashing animations. But I do not have high expectations about time as functional resource because many of these things are on "do not suggest" -list. I assume that they are things that Squad has thought and decided that they do not want to implement them in foreseeable future.

Personally, if I were gonna make a KSP complaint it would be -- I'd rather Squad did a feature freeze with 0.25 and switch to porting that to Unity 5 beta for future releases.

I can not say is it good idea to change to beta version of Unity. As far as I know there are some bugs and limitations caused by Unity 4, but probably there will be much more problems out of Squad's possibilities to fix with new beta version. But I hope that waiting the migration to new Unity is one reason why Squad concentrate building models now. Probably they are much more straightforward to move next version than code or visual effects on planets.

[Hannu]

I see a lot of posts here complaining; that they should have fixed existing issues (might I remind you this is approaching .25...not 1.25). Yet not one of them mentioned any of those issues individually, or even as a collection. That would be proper.

What do you mean. You can find many detailed lists even in this thread. Most of these things have suggested so many times by so many writers that they have been collected in official "do not suggest" -list.

[skeevy]

I've only ever run KSP on Linux 64-bit. Tried on Windows once and it was horrible! So many crashes... I use Kubuntu with the latest opensource graphics drivers included in the OS install and have no problems. Also running about 50 mods. And I love that I can go into the processes and pause/resume KSP for when I'm not using it... I never actually exit the game, I just put it to sleep!

Long Live Linux!

I can't say the same, but only because I didn't have a PC worth using for games until about two years ago. When I finally purchased KSP, I was dual booting and using Windows to game on. When I finally got around to installing Steam and KSP on my Debian disk, wow it was so much better....except the graphics, but I'm old school and look at game play and fun factor before graphics.

Not an experienced Linux user nor do I have it. From what I know of it, my comp has too much hardware to benefit from linux over windows, so idk.

What kind of hardware? Other than, like, AMD Graphics cards in crossfire and other oddball quirks, Linux usually utilizes hardware better than Windows does. Some wireless cards have issues, but that's about it.

• These days, a typical Ubuntu/Mint install is simply burn then boot a live disk (I really recommend Mint 17 LTS over Ubuntu 14.04 LTS...Long Term Support...until 2019...Mint is based on Ubuntu and even more noob friendly...no offense)
  
• a page or two of filling information out like keyboard layout, host name, language, etc
  
• then you'll get to the partition screen where ***it depends on your HDD setup*** (read up on this step before you go to install Linux, it's really the only step you actually need to know anything Linux specific; Ubuntu and Arch have awesome guides)
  
• after that it'll install and then you reboot
  
• and install the proprietary graphics drivers, reboot
  
• and install Steam then KSP
  
• followed by the copy/paste jobs to move all your Windows KSP stuff over to Linux KSP
  
• Delete the Active Texture Management cache and play KSP on Linux
  

On the HDD part, if you only have a single hard drive, you'll have to shrink the Windows partition about 30-40GB, create up to 4 more (logical...MBR) paritions for boot (1-2GB), swap (4GB or equal ram...mine's 8GB), root (15GB or rest of disk if you don't have a home paritition), rest of space for a home partition if you want/need it. I recommend ext2 for boot, swap for swap...and xfs for the rest...or ext4 for the rest. I get decent speeds with XFS so that's what I go with. A home partition is mainly useful if you distro hop a lot and don't like losing stuff like Documents and Downloads, or if your install messes up you can format the root partition and reinstall your system without losing your data.

If you have multiple drives and/or a blank HDD, then (for easy mode) just tell the installer to use the blank disk and you're done. I'd still suggest doing the partitions manually versus letting the installer do it for you. You'll be able to set various volumes to mount on boot like your Windows partition and, in my case, my other Windows partition that I use to backup my Windows games as well as to share files between my Windows and Linux installs (Windows can't read Linux file systems....reliably, there are some hacky methods around, but none are really worth a crap or suitable for everyday use...last I checked a year ago).

[skeevy]

I hope so but I think still that this is very odd order for implementing things. I would have done game functionality first. Fancy destruction animations are not necessary to making new buildings or even damaging them. Buildings could be simple boxes and damages percentages (maybe we could have pictures for intact building, damaged but partly working and completely useless) and nice models and animations could be things of last visual polish.

I can understand that. Maybe Squad did it so they'd have some fun while testing? We did buy a game in an alpha/beta state. What we see as the logical next step might not be the logical next step on their end. What if they did all the mechanics end stuff and the destructed buildings were lackluster? We'd then have people complaining about it being an incomplete feature because the destructions aren't up to par with that the users would like.

I can imagine. But with current game it is time acceleration and one minute waiting. If you miss a launch window then you wait couple of minutes to next one.

That's on us to not "cheat" and warp to the future when it's completed.

It is just what I try to say. My opinion is that functionality should be first. Time should have real effect to game before it is possible to use time penalty against bad playing. I agree, that time should have more value in game, but it would need living supply resources, finite lifetime of components, long planning and building times of spacecrafts, tightly deadlined contracts etc. So that kerbals die and vessels age in space or you get contract breaking fee if you miss a planned launch window because you damaged the assembly hall. After that it is time to think accurate damage models and nice crashing animations. But I do not have high expectations about time as functional resource because many of these things are on "do not suggest" -list. I assume that they are things that Squad has thought and decided that they do not want to implement them in foreseeable future.

Quite a bit of what you suggested is already here in the form of mods.

Destructible buildings is a chicken/egg kind of situation in terms of how we're discussing it -- Should they be destructible or should the game play mechanics for destroyed buildings be implemented first (includes contracts, funds, resources, etc)? Personally, I like they way they seem to be going with it, which is slow and steady. Squad'll be able to see what modders do to incorporate it in mods which can then be used to determine how Squad should proceed forward.

I think some of the items on the "do not suggest" list are there because they'll get to it.

I can not say is it good idea to change to beta version of Unity. As far as I know there are some bugs and limitations caused by Unity 4, but probably there will be much more problems out of Squad's possibilities to fix with new beta version. But I hope that waiting the migration to new Unity is one reason why Squad concentrate building models now. Probably they are much more straightforward to move next version than code or visual effects on planets.

I believe I stated as much when I made that comment. Still, it seems that U5 will be the future for KSP, so why not start sooner versus later? I'd like to think that in the back room over at Squad HQ, there's a guy on a PC compiling KSP for U5 to do some initial assessments and they're just not telling us because it might be somewhat close to working...dammit, I can hope.

Welp. Dinner's done (bbq cocktail smokies) so it's time to fire up Netflix and continue on with my Star Trek TNG marathon (trying to watch it from start to finish...never have before). Netflix on Linux has never been easier than it is now.

[SelectHalfling0]

After reading pages upon pages of seemingly pointless arguments (this update is going to come out after all), I have decided to try to set this discussion thread back on track.

Who's excited for the new spaceplane parts? I am. Already built some stuff out of SP+ in anticipation, even though it won't carry over.

In preparation for the stream of spaceplanes I will be building a crashing and needing to refuel, I am fueling up my waystation.