Going to the Mun and going to Duna in career mode, lack of difficulty increase

[luinux]

I see as a big problem in career mode that, after getting enough tech for taking a kerbal to the Mun, there is no big difference going to Duna. Just some extra dV, and add a few parachutes to the lander. The evolution in the game is very unbalanced because of that, cause when I get to the point of being able to go to the Mun, I kind of lose interest in R&D...

So I would like to know how you'd solve this. I would propose to follow real-life problems, and add life support needs for a months-long mission (yes, I know there are mods...). I think this could be a way of making a Duna mission harder than a few days' Mun mission.

I know life support has been already proposed, but not related to the career mode difficulty curve. Do you have any other ideas about how to make a difference in tech requirements/liftoff weight/overall difficulty for such different missions?

[Pecan]

Why should there be a big difference between Mun and Duna? There are other planets if you want it harder - try going to Moho or a return Eve lander ;-0

If those are too easy for you then, yes, you've probably 'won' KSP and can only resign yourself to mods like FAR, KIDS, DRE, one of the LS versions, RT2, etc. etc. etc.

[Mister Kerman]

Just build something more elaborate. Try and assemble an S&G research facility near the face on Duna, or a space station Start being creative instead of scratching stuff off your checklist. I'd try and launch satellites to places I've never been.

I'm still pretty much a noob at KSP but hopefully some of my genuine whimsy rubs off on you.

Also bonus points for whoever guesses what an S&G research facility is.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Mister Kerman

[cantab]

I dunno, Duna can be tricky to land on. Chutes alone aren't usually enough and they can rip clean off if you're not careful, and engines alone will need a hefty chunk of delta-V for descent because the atmosphere just doesn't slow you down that much. I'm 0/2 from attempts so far.

Also, while going to Duna or Eve doesn't require much more of a rocket, interplanetary travel is a considerable step up in working out your manoeuvres.

But if Duna and Eve really do seem too easy, there's nothing stopping you making a trip further afield instead.

EDIT: Poos and Giggles?

[BlackAdder128]

Why should there be a big difference between Mun and Duna? There are other planets if you want it harder - try going to Moho or a return Eve lander ;-0

If those are too easy for you then, yes, you've probably 'won' KSP and can only resign yourself to mods like FAR, KIDS, DRE, one of the LS versions, RT2, etc. etc. etc.

I found Duna a step up in that it requires a little more launch stage or Lander intelligence. For Dres, I literally just reused my Duna rocket, because it was a tad overengineered. I have to admit I lost a little bit of interest after doing flyby missions of the Jool moons, but I can't claim there was nothing to do. Still, I'm getting back into it a little more with contracts, and I also loaded the realism mods. They're... bit more of a challenge, so far, and the planet tectures are really pretty.

[Jhonny007]

Since stock game was getting to easy for an old veteran of spacetravel I started using 6.4x Kerbal System (RSS Mod required) and added a lot of other mods too. It was a challenge and you really have to watch your money. Reusability was required to succeed. DebRefund is a mod you need for this kind of challenge. Also KIDS and Ferram will help you. The rest is up to you. If you want more Realism (RT2, Lifesupport, Realchutes, Deadly Reentry), better Rockets (KW, NovaPunch), more science (ScanSat, Station Science) or spaceplanes (B9, Firespitter, Spaceplane+).

I tell you 6.4x Kerbal System got me really started into this game. The challenge is enorm, but fun.

[No one]

There may not be an increase in difficulty in rocket design, but there's definitely an increase in difficulty in flight. It's much easier to get to the mun's SOI than Duna's. Especially if you don't know the trick where you target the planet.

Also I think a manned Mun landing is easier than a manned Duna landing in that my standard lander usually has quite a bit of excess fuel when landing (One can return from the Mun with ions) on the Mun but taking off (It landed with parachutes, and couldn't take off and return with just ions) from Duna took almost all its fuel.

If you want a harder rocket design then land on Moho.

[How2FoldSoup]

Just build something more elaborate. Try and assemble an S&G research facility near the face on Duna, or a space station Start being creative instead of scratching stuff off your checklist. I'd try and launch satellites to places I've never been.

I'm still pretty much a noob at KSP but hopefully some of my genuine whimsy rubs off on you.

Also bonus points for whoever guesses what an S&G research facility is.

snacks and games. kobviously.

[Caelib]

When you can do a full Duna mission WITHOUT quicksave or quickload with landing and return ... then you can say it's too easy If you reach that point, give Tylo a shot.

[BlackAdder128]

When you can do a full Duna mission WITHOUT quicksave or quickload with landing and return ... then you can say it's too easy If you reach that point, give Tylo a shot.

I never quicksave during a mission

[problemecium]

From my perspective the increase in difficulty comes from the fact that the Duna transfer window only comes once a year and thus a very long time after the game starts. I don't like the idea of timewarping years and years ahead while all the Kerbals just sit around bored waiting for me to decide it's time for a mission. If you enforce some degree of rule about not abusing timewarp, you'll find the game ends up involving a lot more planning and optimizing to make the most out of every window, especially since the Jool window comes first.

[Liowen]

You really want to up the difficulty do not use KER or mechjeb, depending on what on you have, or any mod that sets up maneuvers or makes them easy to adjust. This should prove a challenge to most from what I have seen on here as of late.

[No one]

You really want to up the difficulty do not use KER or mechjeb, depending on what on you have, or any mod that sets up maneuvers or makes them easy to adjust. This should prove a challenge to most from what I have seen on here as of late.

Launch Window planners combined with the in-game maneuver nodes make Duna rather easy to get to. I've never used KER or MJ, but imo the maneuver nodes+launch window planners make every planet other than Moho easy to get to, provided you know to set the planet as your target.

Of course, when I finished with Kerbin's SOI I didn't know about the "target planet" feature, and thus had no clue how to get anywhere. I instead started trying to get as close as possible to the sun which has the exact opposite problem of Duna: No orbital mechanics involved (Other than Hohmann and Bi-elliptic transfers) but lots of delta-v.

[juanml82]

I think Duna being relatively easy is fine. You can't have all destinies to be hard - each should have their own quirks and challenges. Duna isn't hard. Then go for Dres. If it's not enough, aim for Jool and all its moons. Send a manned mission to Eve's surface and back. Go to Moho, explore the moholes.

But you need a planet that's relatively easy for people starting the game. Otherwise, they'll just get frustrated and stop playing.

[tater]

I'm a new player, and I think OP makes a good point, though I think the idea of "difficulty level" is wrong-headed (meaning making it arbitrarily harder). As was pointed out above, when life support is in, it will be a game-changer. Your ship for a distant mission will require much more work and planning. The same might be said for more realistic atmospheres, and reentry parameters that are life and death.

I don't really see any arbitrary difficulty levels as being useful. Orbital mechanics is orbital mechanics.

[biohazard15]

It is sad that Planet Factory kinda breaks career mode - there is some challenging planets.

[sedativechunk]

OP, I recommend just getting some mods, not much more else you can do. Most people complain this game is too hard, a lot of casuals can't even get past the Mun or Minmus.

On my game, I use deadly re-entry and tac life support. Definitely makes interplanetary missions more interesting/challenging. Especially if you are one of those kind that likes to Aerobrake on Duna. Try doing that on Duna with deadly re-entry and you will get a much more challenging experience.

If Duna is too easy, shoot for Eve. A true hardcore player of this game can do Eve with life support and deadly reentry and return. Please attempt this and then come back and tell me this game is too easy after that. Or Moho, like one of the others said. Definitely the most Delta V costly missions in the game.

[regex]

after getting enough tech for taking a kerbal to the Mun, there is no big difference going to Duna. Just some extra dV, and add a few parachutes to the lander.

That's spaceflight for you; a bit more fuel will do wonders and it's a big part of the reason why you can't simply clamp a player's achievements to tech tree advances. You need some sort of other limiter, like life support, to make those in-between steps more important.

[Xavven]

I see as a big problem in career mode that, after getting enough tech for taking a kerbal to the Mun, there is no big difference going to Duna. Just some extra dV, and add a few parachutes to the lander.

From an experienced player's perspective, yeah, you don't even need to redesign your Mun rocket to land on Ike and return. It's so easy... HOWEVER, and that's a big however, thinking back to the first time I played KSP, there were enough new things I had to learn about interplanetary missions that Duna was a sufficiently challenging stepping stone!

Even though I had Mun down easily and could land it in my sleep, my first Duna mission had me in heliocentric orbit for a few years before I got into Duna's SOI because I didn't know about phase angles.

And then I entered Duna's SOI 3 million meters to the north pole (this was in .23 before the better conics views were added to stock). I used up so much delta-v on my orbital insertion because I didn't know it was better to adjust your periapsis waaay in advance of your orbital insertion burn to make your insertion burn close to the planet.

AND, I entered in a polar orbit instead of counter-clockwise orbit. AND I didn't know that changing planes was best done at the apoapsis of a highly elliptic orbit. I used up SO MUCH delta-v it's not even funny.

Personally, I'm grateful to have had a gentle stepping stone. If they just threw Jool at me next, I would have hit a wall.

[Brofessional]

I think for a novice player, doing an interplanetary transfer is still pretty daunting compared to the Mun.

That said if you are finding it too easy, install Deadly Reentry and TAC Life Support to add some challenge.

[Elington]

That's spaceflight for you; a bit more fuel will do wonders and it's a big part of the reason why you can't simply clamp a player's achievements to tech tree advances. You need some sort of other limiter, like life support, to make those in-between steps more important.

Simple rules for interplanetary flights and working with the stock game (sorry I can't find the thread where I first saw these discussed):

1. 
   
2. manned ships must carry at least 3 kerbals
   
3. manned ships must carry 1 hitchiker module per 3 kerbals and per mission year rounded up (must be brought back to Kerbin)
   

I generally rely on alexmoon's launch window planner to estimate the duration of the mission.

Believe me this leads rather brutally to extra DV and ship complexity, and which increases with the distance flown!

[WeirdCulture]

with RT2 is gonna a little more complicated

[Kasuha]

Once you're in Kerbin orbit, you're halfway to anywhere. I have an SSTO that can barely return from Mun, but it can also barely return from Duna, Laythe, or can establish orbit around Moho or Eeloo. When I was a newbie, my first interplanetary flight was - to Eeloo. Because I told myself, if I can get there, I can get anywhere.

I don't see a problem here or anything that would need any kind of solution. In my opinion, it should be used by the game.

In my opinion, technology progress should be quest-based. If you want this part, you need to fly to this place and do that research there. After a few steps in technology, you can already reach most of the system. That's a good thing as it allows for the technology graph to be wide - if you're not brave enough to fly to Dres yet, you give up for a while on technology you don't desperately need. But you can fly somewhere else and get something else. Better solar panels in low Sun orbit and on Eeloo. More powerful space engines for research on Tylo. Better jet engines for visiting Laythe. Better parachutes after sending probe on Eve surface and on Duna. You can reach wide variety of places and that gives you freedom in which way will you enhance your technology further.

[Marclev]

What's wrong with KER now? Removing it just adds frustration as you have to faff around switching between map view and flight view while trying to work out what's going on from the limited information the game gives you.

I find the game pretty frustrating to play without KER, not easier or harder, but really annoying. That and precise manoeuvre node and enhanced navball, just to make everything slicker.

Mechjeb I agree with.

[tater]

Not really liking "quest" idea. You don't gain much engineering knowledge from planetary science. You gain engineering knowledge somewhat by trial and error (doing stuff), and that's already in, really (could be tweaked, but in). Really, if you were planning on a sophisticated mission that required new tech, you'd get it BEFORE you went.

Perhaps certain destinations/missions could be suggested along with "experimental" tech to accomplish them. Such tech would have interesting chances of random failures, so you'd get all the way to the planet, and the new chute fails to deploy, or the engine is less effective than designed, etc. Returning or transmitting data on the new tech helps unlock the "finished" version.