Compulsory vaccination

[Kryten]

The problem is we don't live in a world governed by the scientific method, but a world ruled by governmental and economic power. I like arguing fact before theory. It's why my stance on GMO's isn't that they are a wonder drug for all the worlds problems, but a scam to sell more round up.

That doesn't follow at all.

[78stonewobble]

One could also argue that it is morally reprehensible to put others at risk via not vaccinating.

I'm a big believer in personal freedoms, but not at the cost of others, potentially many others, freedoms and health.

EDIT: I mean, normally if we deem a person to be of risk to other people. We lock them up or otherwise prevent them from being a risk to other people ie. really really shoddy doctors or close the restaurant of the non hand washing cook.

Edited August 23, 2014 by 78stonewobble

[peadar1987]

But returning to subject i share my mum belief that's vaccines should be used only in case as last resort only in urgent situation, and not use for common disease like ordinary flu or chickenpox (I fell ill with chicken pox 17 years old and lived, it was not nice, but I do have immunity for life:D )

You survived because you were a healthy young adult. These "common diseases" like seasonal flu and chicken pox can kill the very young, old, and immunocompromised. As said previously in this thread, chicken pox in pregnant women can cause huge complications for the developing foetus. They're not trivial conditions. It's not like we're vaccinating the entire population against male pattern baldness.

[Brethern]

Right now, Polio, smallpox, mumps. And several other diseases that were abolished are coming back. But if they're abolished then why are they coming back?

Good question glad you asked that.

The way vaccines in humans work is called herd immunity. They vaccines only work effectively if everyone is vaccinated against the disease. So by having people who refuse to get vaccinated, they're endangering everyone.

So it should be mandatory under punishment of death if refusal.

[Master Tao]

But returning to subject i share my mum belief that's vaccines should be used only in case as last resort only in urgent situation, and not use for common disease like ordinary flu or chickenpox (I fell ill with chicken pox when i had 17 years old and lived, it was not nice, but I do have immunity for life:D )

You don't necessarily have immunity for life. Resistence can change over time – I personally lost immunity to something I was vaccinated for as a child. So can the effects of the disease; chicken pox as an adult can be so much worse that it's more commonly called shingles. It can cause hearing loss in both the adult and is one cause of congenital hearing loss[1, 2]. In other words, if you're ever around pregnant women, you want to be vaccinated against chicken pox, flu, and rubella, among others.

The way vaccines in humans work is called herd immunity. They vaccines only work effectively if everyone is vaccinated against the disease.

Exactly. Vaccines aren't 100% effective for the individual. The flu vaccine, for example, is about 50-70% effective[3]. The vaccine becomes effective if enough people are immune that the disease can't spread. This is particular important for people who can't receive the vaccine because of allergies or compromised immune systems.

[RockoDyne]

Right now, Polio, smallpox, mumps. And several other diseases that were abolished are coming back. But if they're abolished then why are they coming back?

Good question glad you asked that.

The way vaccines in humans work is called herd immunity. They vaccines only work effectively if everyone is vaccinated against the disease. So by having people who refuse to get vaccinated, they're endangering everyone.

So it should be mandatory under punishment of death if refusal.

And you would end up killing more people than would probably end up dying from the illness had no one been immunized. Brilliant. Why not just have people guard the border in full hazmat suits and chuck anyone who so much as coughs into an incinerator. There, problem solved at the source.

Between sanitation and healthy diets, there is little reason why anyone older than four and younger than eighty should fear getting sick with anything actually dangerous.

[K^2]

Between sanitation and healthy diets, there is little reason why anyone older than four and younger than eighty should fear getting sick with anything actually dangerous.

If you bothered to actually read the thread, you'd probably realize how ignorant this statement is.

First of all, diseases mutate, and lack of vaccination assits them in doing so. Every once in a while, an otherwise harmless disease becomes deadly. Yes, to healthy individuals with good diets. If you don't vacinate, the next time you have an ordinary flu, you might be actually contributing to deaths of hundreds of thousands in a future outbreak. How do you feel about that?

But even if we forget about that, simply the decline in productivity due to mundane flu result in huge amounts of losses to the economy. Losses that can be easily avoided with imunization. Losses that could have otherwise become higher wages. Or more money for research. Or even just longer holidays at work.

And we're throwing it all away because?

[RockoDyne]

If you bothered to actually read the thread, you'd probably realize how ignorant this statement is.

First of all, diseases mutate, and lack of vaccination assits them in doing so. Every once in a while, an otherwise harmless disease becomes deadly. Yes, to healthy individuals with good diets. If you don't vacinate, the next time you have an ordinary flu, you might be actually contributing to deaths of hundreds of thousands in a future outbreak. How do you feel about that?

But even if we forget about that, simply the decline in productivity due to mundane flu result in huge amounts of losses to the economy. Losses that can be easily avoided with imunization. Losses that could have otherwise become higher wages. Or more money for research. Or even just longer holidays at work.

And we're throwing it all away because?

The last horrible outbreak in the west was what? Spanish flu a century ago? Unless I've been completely ignorant, I have yet to hear of a virus that desolated middle class america.

Sorry, I don't buy the ........ that vaccinating is going to stop the next super virus from being created. I'm sure I'll feel real guilty about my contribution to that virus, although chances are that would probably make me immune to it.

[Dodgey]

The last horrible outbreak in the west was what? Spanish flu a century ago? Unless I've been completely ignorant, I have yet to hear of a virus that desolated middle class america.

Sorry, I don't buy the ........ that vaccinating is going to stop the next super virus from being created. I'm sure I'll feel real guilty about my contribution to that virus, although chances are that would probably make me immune to it.

The reason there hasn't been a major outbreak is because of a vaccinations. It limits the spread of regular deseases which limits the likely hood that they will mutate, not to mention the fact that you can be vaccinated against deadly deseases as well, such as polio, whooping cough, swine flu. Also what about those who are not able to be vaccinated such as the very young, a desease which is almost harmless to an adult or teenager could be deadly to an infant.

[Brethern]

And you would end up killing more people than would probably end up dying from the illness had no one been immunized. Brilliant. Why not just have people guard the border in full hazmat suits and chuck anyone who so much as coughs into an incinerator. There, problem solved at the source.

Between sanitation and healthy diets, there is little reason why anyone older than four and younger than eighty should fear getting sick with anything actually dangerous.

Washing hands and eating vegetable's does nothing to prevent things such as the Ebola virus.

There are also many cases of diseases becoming resistance antibiotics.

And as far as ending up killing more people than an outbreak would so what. The survivors are vaccinated and most likely the ones who are not buying into the vaccines cause autism crap.

So it's a win win situation.

[Dodgey]

You are being sarcastic correct?

[Master Tao]

Superviruses are microevolution in action. In the long term, they probably won't survive as long as less potent variants, but in the short term, they reproduce and spread rapidly. Viruses like Ebola are uncommon in part because they kill off so many potential carriers. Vaccines can keep them from spreading and developing into something worse.

On an individual scale, this is why doctors remind patients to take the full course of antibiotics. There's enough variation even in your own body that some of the microorganisms are probably partially antibiotic resistant. You want to eradicate the microorganism so that the resistance doesn't develop further.

[Brethern]

You are being sarcastic correct?

It's already been proven that if someone knowingly infects someone with HIV they can be charged.

Anyone who knowingly refuses a vaccine for a disease that is known to be lethal and contagious should be covered under the same laws. After all they know they are vulnerable to the disease.

EDIT:

It's a view like it or not there would be good reasons for this policy. Most of the reasons people have for avoiding vaccines are because of ignorance and a stubborn refusal to accept scientific fact.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Brethern

[Dodgey]

Yes however there is quite a difference between being charged and being put to death. That was where my objection mainly lies.

[Vanamonde]

Although this is an issue which involves politics, and sometimes religions, please keep in mind that we have had to rule those subjects off-limits on our forum for the sake of preventing arguments.

[Brethern]

Yes however there is quite a difference between being charged and being put to death. That was where my objection mainly lies.

Vaccination is a series issue. In fact all diseases are, remember reading about typhoid mary? They could have saved allot of people by removing her permanently once they first hard her.

Yes I am well aware that there are such things are human rights, but a line has to be drawn when it comes to the danger of somethings.

[RockoDyne]

Anyone who knowingly refuses a vaccine for a disease that is known to be lethal and contagious should be covered under the same laws. After all they know they are vulnerable to the disease.

And then you end up with idiots who don't follow normal precautions, because they were vaccinated and think they are immune. The US might as well just declare martial law every time someone in china keels over looking funny.

The reason there hasn't been a major outbreak is because of a vaccinations.

Because there aren't about a thousand other variables to people's standards of living that have changed in that time. We've pretty well phased out the need to route smoke through houses in that time.

Also what about those who are not able to be vaccinated such as the very young, a desease which is almost harmless to an adult or teenager could be deadly to an infant.

Sucks to be them. We are still dealing with the lowest child mortality rate of anytime in human history. If we are talking about the elderly, most of the time it's just their time and something was bound to happen, otherwise it's typically a case where they ended up sick after a procedure and were too weak to fight it.

[Dodgey]

Yes there is a risk with not vaccinating however thankfully the majority of people to vaccinate therefor the risk is lowered. Murdering the people who do not vaccinate would not decrease said risk by any measurable account for any outbreak at the moment. So it isn't justifie on that front. If your justification is to motivate people to vaccinate then it falls flat on that front also as studies have shown that capital punishment does little to stem crime.

Edit:

Yes there are other variables. There are also other variables at work when someone who is intoxicated drives and crashes a car. That doesn't mean that them being intoxicated wasn't a major variable. Here in Australia we had the swine fu come around a few years back, are you telling me that me being vaccinated didn't do anything to prevent it being a very major outbreak? What about whooping cough, cases are happening of children catching the deadly desease, low and behold in the vast majority of cases (I won't say all because I don't have all of the cases here in front of me) the children weren't vaccinated.

The statistics show that in communities where the vaccination rates are low outbreak cases are higher. It works, it stems the spread of deseases, I mean it sounds as if you are suggesting that vaccinations are ineffective.

Sucks to be them? It was their time to go? This could be applied to anypoint in history as an argument against an advance in medical science.

Edit 2:Brethern

Sorry I didn't see this edit of yours, yes there would be a worst case situation where it would be applicable, but that situation isn't happening now.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Dodgey

[RuBisCO]

Lets say Ebola broke out across the world and they came out with a vaccine, who would not take it? Come on, be honest.

[Brethern]

Lets say Ebola broke out across the world and they came out with a vaccine, who would not take it? Come on, be honest.

Probably the same people who think that vaccines cause autism.

[Napaeozapus]

Lets say Ebola broke out across the world and they came out with a vaccine, who would not take it? Come on, be honest.

Depends. If there was no vaccine before the outbreak and then there suddenly was a vaccine, I would like to see how reliable it was before deciding to take it. Probably be best to look into possible alternative treatments/preventive measures and not rely entirely on a vaccine in any case. If there was a world pandemic I would question the current way of handling these things. I don't know maybe I am just crazy for this line of thinking. I have more concern over how people would react rather than the actual disease.

[Albert VDS]

I don't see how a well informed person could be against vaccination.

Vaccination is a way to create anti bodies against a pathogen by administering a dead, weakened or a part of a virus or bacteria.

The other way is directly adding anti bodies.

Imagine it being a boxing match, what harm would become to you if you boxed again a dead, weakened or partial boxer?

[RuBisCO]

Depends. If there was no vaccine before the outbreak and then there suddenly was a vaccine, I would like to see how reliable it was before deciding to take it. Probably be best to look into possible alternative treatments/preventive measures and not rely entirely on a vaccine in any case. If there was a world pandemic I would question the current way of handling these things. I don't know maybe I am just crazy for this line of thinking. I have more concern over how people would react rather than the actual disease.

Yeah because it not like vaccines have been the primary means of stopping and fighting these disease off, no no we killed of small pox off with homeopathy, we bet polio to near death with Ayurveda! I don't see how a world wide pandemic of Ebola would lead to questions against vaccinations. Let me make the questions more specific: if the vaccine was to have say a 90% efficacy and no known side-effects verses dying horribly of ebola, which would you take? How people would "react" (what does that even mean?) verse millions of people dying horribly, melting from the inside out, is more important to you?

[Kryten]

I think he just means 'alternative to a vaccine' rather than the standard alternative medicine, i.e. 'alternative to anything that actually works'.

[Napaeozapus]

I think he just means 'alternative to a vaccine' rather than the standard alternative medicine, i.e. 'alternative to anything that actually works'.

Yes. If there was a global pandemic I would want look into other options. There would be no guarantee of having accesses to a vaccine if there was one.

I never said I wouldn't take the vaccine just that I would like to see that it works before taking it. By people reacting I mean if it was a global situation there would be more going on than just people getting sick.