[0.24.2] Interstellar Lite - Tweakscale Integration [v0.12.3][Sept 7]

[Jarin]

So... I'm confused. I get the impression that this was started at some point when Fractal vanished for a while? But now both are being updated in parallel. I see tweakscale, but other than that, is there any sort of listing of the general differences between the two mods now? How "lite" is this version? (gotta admit, regular KSPI is kinda intimidating-looking)

[AetherGoddess]

So... I'm confused. I get the impression that this was started at some point when Fractal vanished for a while? But now both are being updated in parallel. I see tweakscale, but other than that, is there any sort of listing of the general differences between the two mods now? How "lite" is this version? (gotta admit, regular KSPI is kinda intimidating-looking)

it's probably time i posted this again:

Hi, I have a question, What is the difference between KSPI and KSPI Lite ?

Ah! the perennial question:

i'm not sure what you mean here, so i'm going to theorize wildly and hope i hit.

both KSPi and KSPi_lite are based on the same core, that is, KSPi .11 for .23.5, so they share lots of the same parts and resources. KSPi_lite went down the path of play-ability, and as such there are pretty dramatic changes to the way it operates, and there is a lot less game-play impacting complexity. a good example of this is the simplified reactor design: where KSPi is concerned with getting the reactor design as close to real as possible, KSPi_lite takes the tact that reactors are a game mechanic for converting nuclear fuels into power, and removes the complex fuel cycles and unclear part interactions that often causes unfun activities, like having to revert to editor because your space plane can't start it's reactor without it's reactor running.

i didn't realize what a problem for usability this was until recently, but way back in .22, i had to redo a complex space station servicing mission because i had chosen the wrong fuel mode for my fission-based station power module, and couldn't run the reactor i had just spent and hour ascending, orbiting, intercepting and docking with my station. after having messed with KSPi for more then a year now, i think i have a good understanding of the various nuclear fuels and their cycles, but i was NOT happy at the time.

hopefully this answered your question?

The difference is largely down to personal preference. Interstellar tries to portray, relatively realistically, what certain advanced technologies would be like. As a result, Interstellar parts have an incredibly wide range of capabilities.

Lite is less interested in realistically portraying technologies with real numbers and tries to balance all the parts more into line with what you might more usually expect in KSP.

Both approaches are valid, it just depends on personal preference.

[Edited Liberally]

Interstellar Lite is a derivative of the KSP Interstellar, originally developed by Fractal UK. This version was developed, in part, by me, WaveFunctionP, not FractalUK. Do not blame him for broken stuff. (Assuming you can find him. )

Tweakscale Integration

Most parts will scale from .625m to 5m! The appropriate values are automatically adjusted for the new size. The mod includes a modified version of tweakscale which only includes configs for Interstellar and stock parts. If you have other parts you want to tweak, you will need to download the full version of tweakscale from the mod's author.

Part Pruning

Many parts were removed. The intent is to bring them back when/if they have a strong role. Many models have been removed as part of the tweakscale integration, they may find their way back eventually given a interesting use.

Part Rebalance

Scaling was out of control. Parts now have much more stock like behavior to fit within the confines of the kerbal sized universe. The focus was a on fun and interesting choices.

Bigger reactors have more thrust, smaller have more ISP. Higher tier reactors can be better, because of higher energy density, but have rarer resources. (Resource revamp is not done yet. Costs are placeholder.)

Radiators were buffed, especially radial radiators.

Huge and Inline versions were removed due to weak art.

Radiators now glow according to waste heat accumulation. (Thank Mellon85.)

Feature Pruning

Many upgrade mechanics were removed to reduce scaling and confusion. Most extra modes were removed from parts to reduce confusion as well.

This is affects reactors, radiators and generators as thier upgrades were simple stat inflation.

Only interesting upgrades/modes were kept like thermal turbojet's lfo mode or plasma's quantum vacuum mode.

Resource Compatibility

Many resources have changed to improve compatibility. The mod supports CommunityResourcePack. Expect much more tight integration with resource/life support/logistic mods in the future. This was the first step. The VAB has tweakable fuel resources with preliminary costs. (Not all that balanced.)

Polish!, Polish!, Polish!

A great deal of focus was spent on player messaging. Many tooltips, descriptions and buttons are improved over stock KSPI. Many of the weaker models were removed or replaced with better art. Many bug fixes.

My answer over anyone who had any real contribution. who's the queen now?

[INSULINt]

If I replace the Tweakscale dlls in this with the new .25 compiled version is there any issues?

[WaveFunctionP]

I don't know that there are issues with the current versions, but assuming no changes to the way that parts are configured, it should be no problem.

[Zaranthan]

The current included version of Tweakscale doesn't work. The scale bit just doesn't appear when you right-click on parts in the VAB.

EDIT: The version in the current release of KSPILite. I haven't tested the new version of Tweakscale for 0.25 yet.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Zaranthan

[UAL002]

Assuming you get tweak-scale working can you report back? I think I'm going to try interstellar lite for the first time. Does this add new nodes or does everything go in stock nodes?

[AetherGoddess]

Assuming you get tweak-scale working can you report back? I think I'm going to try interstellar lite for the first time. Does this add new nodes or does everything go in stock nodes?

this is, in fact, the major issue with both KSPi and KSPi_LITE right now. Treeloader, the method to create the far future research nodes, is broken, and the license prevents us from doing anything about it. it. it's going to have to be rewritten from a clean room, or some other competitor is going to have to start it up again before the new, far future nodes where most of the coolness sits is usable in career and science modes.

[UAL002]

Ok that's what I was afraid of. I'm well aware of the treedit/treeloader issues. My own tree is quite gone and will need a rebuild. I just cant until some enterprising you modder decides to take up the gauntlet. ( I HOPE THEY'RE READING THIS)

[blindcoder]

I have downloaded the latest Tweakscale and it works quite fine with KSPILite. I needed to remove/reattach some parts in the VAB, but it works fine then.

What unfortunately does not work is activating the science lab (I don't mean getting science from it, I know that doesn't work in 0.25 atm), but I can't even activate it. It says 'Not enough crew' even though the Science Lab has two Kerbals sitting in it.

[AetherGoddess]

I've been skeptical of the removal of direct conversion, but it looks like

has issues with that, so i can see the justification now.

[Poofer]

so i've been reading and found why my research building is not showing the interstellar nodes: treeloader. kspil is really the only mod i'm missing for the .25 transition but is also pretty much a core mod, are there any news on how to solve the treeloader issue? i see fractal already released a .25 version, how'd he get around it?

[UAL002]

I'm not sure he really did. I'm wondering if Lite could somehow integrate into the stock tree. I'm not familiar with the parts though as I haven't used it yet. I want to but the treeloader issue is stopping me.

[Poofer]

integrating into the tree would make it far less challenging since it would drastically reduce the amount of science required to unlock the parts, at least that's why i like more nodes with less parts in each.

[Bishop149]

Any update on 0.25?

This is now the only mod (of my extensive installed list!) which hasn't been updated yet.

Unfortunately its also probably the most important / "potentially game breaking if I get it wrong" one!

[undercoveryankee]

so i've been reading and found why my research building is not showing the interstellar nodes: treeloader. kspil is really the only mod i'm missing for the .25 transition but is also pretty much a core mod, are there any news on how to solve the treeloader issue? i see fractal already released a .25 version, how'd he get around it?

I'm not sure he really did. I'm wondering if Lite could somehow integrate into the stock tree. I'm not familiar with the parts though as I haven't used it yet. I want to but the treeloader issue is stopping me.

Fractal set most parts' TechRequired to nodes that are in the stock tree and then wrote his tree.cfg so TreeLoader would move them to the proper places in the extended tree. Because that much compatibility was baked into the design, the no-TreeLoader ModuleManager patch is only a few dozen lines.

Wave shipped a tree.cfg that creates the extra nodes but doesn't move any parts around and listed the TreeLoader nodes directly in parts' TechRequired entries. I was in favor of Wave's approach at the time because it's cleaner and preserves the possibility of changing parts' TechRequired with ModuleManager, but the conversion to the stock tree is going to be a longer patch.

[Spyre2000]

I have played KSPI in the past but am trying a new group of mods and figured I'd give KSPI Lite a try to see the differences. However I noticed that with treeloader missing it causes some issue. I've unlocked all the techs and noticed the Alcubierre Drive is missing, I'm guessing it's still in Lite just buried in one of those missing tech nodes?

Also is there a way to unlock the missing parts? In KSPI they revert to the default tech tree but in Lite they don't according to other post in the thread. So I was wondering if anyone has made changes to the files to move them into stock nodes.

[Poofer]

the parts themselves have a configfile where it pulls the required tech, maybe changing it to a stock node would suffice but i'd rather wait for custom nodes to return.

[Spyre2000]

So I did a search for all interstellarTech* items in the mod's folder. I found 12 part files and changed them to stock nodes. This worked for "most" of the parts but there are a few that still don't seem to be showing up even though I tried multiple nodes. The Antimatter collector, Antimatter Tank, and Antimatter Reactor. For some reason these 3 parts don't show up regardless of what node I try to move them too.

[UAL002]

Ok you lost me. If I want to try this with the stock tree, what's my solution?

[WaveFunctionP]

You'd need an MM config to edit the tech requirements for the parts and the upgrade requirements.

For now, only sandbox can work correctly because of the treeloader issue.

Even if you modify the tech tree to stock, you won't have a very good experience with science progression because the tree is just too small.

Edited October 23, 2014 by WaveFunctionP

[UAL002]

The man himself, ha. Is there such a MM config? I mean the best possible fit for the parts in stock nodes. Or is it truly not worth bothering? Im playing on hard mode and science does not come easy. Or is it just that there aren't enough late nodes? I guess the fear is that if you start placing your parts in nodes too soon it cheapens the other stock parts that have no further use.

[Spyre2000]

The man himself, ha. Is there such a MM config? I mean the best possible fit for the parts in stock nodes. Or is it truly not worth bothering? Im playing on hard mode and science does not come easy. Or is it just that there aren't enough late nodes? I guess the fear is that if you start placing your parts in nodes too soon it cheapens the other stock parts that have no further use.

I don't think there is one yet. Personally I just manually went to the part cfg files and edited them to use stock techs. Now they show up at the stock nodes. I put most of the parts in nodes that don't see much traffic, like nanolithing, experimental science, and others that only had 1-2 parts to begin with that really weren't worth getting. I suppose if one knew how they could also edit the science cost of those nodes, since they are pretty much worthless nodes to begin with.

In terms of difficulty I know what you mean. I went a step further than hard and decreased it from 60% to 50% on all income. It does pose a bit of challenge as unlocking the nodes is not the only issue but also paying for the parts. I have like 30+ mods and thus far several nodes have had 100-400K worth of parts to unlock. So I have to choose wisely which ones to get.

When it comes to science though the ultimate problem, as I see it, is that the tech tree ends and you ultimately have no real need for science beyond that point. Having the really high cost of the Interstellar nodes only post pones the inevitable. It makes things feel longer by putting off that final part behind a rather high cost tech node, but once you reach it science becomes like reputation which is a fairly worthless commodity as far as I can tell. Strategies help reduce this issue when it comes to contracts, since you can convert them into funds, but science from science parts becomes worthless.

As for cheapening the stock parts I haven't played KSPI Lite that long and only really glanced at them in an old save to ensure my cfg changes were done properly so they showed up in stock nodes. But one thing I did notice was some of the parts seemed rather cheap. The A-Drive for example only cost 25K while in KSPI it cost millions. In my old save before Difficulties I have 9M in the bank so building a couple of those wouldn't be too hard. In my new campaign I've earned at least 1M but spent a large part of it on unlocking parts, however once the tech tree is done I imagine I will be rolling in the cash as more profitable contracts seem to appear later in the game. Combined with lot better parts being marginally cheaper that doesn't really put much choice into which way to go.

[AetherGoddess]

[...]When it comes to science though the ultimate problem, as I see it, is that the tech tree ends and you ultimately have no real need for science beyond that point. Having the really high cost of the Interstellar nodes only post pones the inevitable. It makes things feel longer by putting off that final part behind a rather high cost tech node, but once you reach it science becomes like reputation which is a fairly worthless commodity as far as I can tell. Strategies help reduce this issue when it comes to contracts, since you can convert them into funds, but science from science parts becomes worthless. [...]

There's enough science in Kerbin local space to unlock all of the stock science tree. adding more nodes with higher science costs makes sense in that you are essentially unlocking easier methods to get to places you are forced to go to with crap methods first.

[Spyre2000]

There's enough science in Kerbin local space to unlock all of the stock science tree. adding more nodes with higher science costs makes sense in that you are essentially unlocking easier methods to get to places you are forced to go to with crap methods first.

That's actually a lot more than just enough science to unlock stock tech tree in local Kerbin space. I recall on one of my Earlier Campaigns I got a few of the KSPI nodes unlocked as well. I just needing to send some probes to get science in orbit around a few of the inner planets and I had Warp Drive unlocked.

Before you had to go to every little biome to achieve that but now with contracts it's even easier to get all the science you need. You can toil away with lots of local contracts to get the science you need to unlock the later tiers.

But that wasn't really the point I was making. I was saying that once you unlock all the tech nodes science serves no purpose. Increasing the cost of the nodes only delays this inevitability. Funds are the only resource that maintain some value, since every ship you make requires funds to build. The only thing to do with science after you unlock all the nodes is change your strategy to convert science into funds or reputation for contracts, and running science equipment serves no purpose other then getting the achievements.

[AetherGoddess]

[...]But that wasn't really the point I was making. I was saying that once you unlock all the tech nodes science serves no purpose. Increasing the cost of the nodes only delays this inevitability. Funds are the only resource that maintain some value, since every ship you make requires funds to build. The only thing to do with science after you unlock all the nodes is change your strategy to convert science into funds or reputation for contracts, and running science equipment serves no purpose other then getting the achievements.

So that's really a balance issue for squad, since the same applies to stock. i don't think they ever adjusted their science values after adding all those planets and muns and biomes and junk. i also don't think they thought through declaring reputation and science to be resources in the same way as funds, and a frangible one at that.

the reason for Interstellar parts to be locked behind higher cost nodes is to require more effort for more advanced parts.

also, by "Kerbin local space", i ment Kerbin's SOI, i.e. Kerbin, the Mun, and Minimus.