Feelings about being able to fly without MechJeb

[SkyHook]

Mechjeb allows two things:

1. Repetition

2. Accuracy (sometimes).

Once I did my 100th equatorial launch to the same altitude, I realized that I had bigger fish to fry and mechjeb did (does) the boring stuff for me.

[Red Iron Crown]

Mechjeb is in an odd place, it's simultaneously the most popular mod and the most hated mod.

I use MechJeb for informational displays, automation of things I find boring or repetitive, and control of ships with high partcounts where lag is a significant factor and I have difficulty controlling them manually due to the delay of control input effects. I can do most everything manually, but MJ makes the game more enjoyable for me by allowing me to focus on the parts I enjoy most.

Whether a player new or old should use it is entirely up to them. There are no medals for doing all your maneuvering manually, or doing delta-V calculations by hand, or doing manually anything else that MechJeb does.

There is a subset of players who enjoy the building and mission planning portions of KSP but not the piloting; MechJeb would seem to be a perfect fit for them.

MechJeb is also a useful learning tool for some people. I don't really see a substantial difference between watching someone complete a maneuver in a youtube video to learn about it and watching MechJeb perform the same maneuver in game to learn about it.

As for those players who look down their nose at those who use or depend on MechJeb, IMO that's childish and imposing their standards of gameplay on others. Play the game how you like and stuff those who think you're doing it wrong.

[Thomas988]

To be completely honest, I think MechJeb is a little cheaty. Don't hurt me!

I believe that KSP is about doing everything yourself, no matter how tedious or boring it may be. And even though MechJeb is more than an "autopilot," as it also provides lots of information on orbital properties and such, I still like to stay stock, using nothing but my skills and knowledge to complete any task.

[Felsmak]

All new users should learn how to fly manually. Once they get good at it they can make the choice to use Mechjeb to automate the repetitious process of launching payloads into orbit or to another location for the purpose of building stations, bases, or assembling that big rocket for deep space exploration.

But what would happen if they'd make that choice before they've learned manual flight?

No but seriously, no one "should" do anything. How you play is a personal decision and no one else's business.

[Alfondoo]

Mechjeb taught me how to fly in the beginning, monkey see monkey spends 10 months to master.

Now though, I can achieve whatever I like in the game, all while using less fuel than an autopilot

Mechjeb is great but it doesn't do a single thing in the most efficient way possible. From de-orbits, landings within 5m of a target to the ascent burns, human powered will ALWAYS use less fuel. Human power will also rendezvous with a target much more quickly and more efficiently.

I'm a supporter of mechjeb, but I think experienced players get more out of a tool like Kerbal Engineer.

[Random Tank]

As we learned from Films such as 2001: A Space Odyssey, the Terminator Series and I, Robot, all A.I is inherently evil. Therefore, I will never ever use MechJeb for fear of it killing my Kerbals, ruining my space program and it trying to take over the world.

But on a serious note, I love flying, and I love playing this game, so I don't want someone playing it for me, as I don't find the tedious bits tedious!

[KingPhantom]

i played ksp in the first carreer (0.23.5) without mods through the whole tech tree... after i finished it i startet to use some mods. after this many starts i'm happy that i can focus on building and don't need to do the start by my own. i only use ascending helpf, landing help, randevouz help and maneuver executen via mechjeb. i think it's not good on interplanetary travels (only maneuver management and execution...)

[tater]

So here's a thought (as someone who has no mods yet): Why not include something like mechjeb in stock? Have the accuracy of it flying autopilot based on the Stupidity rating of the pilot on that mission (most stupid is off by say, up to +-20% altitude up to +-20 degrees inclination, +-XX seconds of executing a node maneuver, etc (it's 0-20, so they might do perfectly, worst os the number cited)), least stupid by up to +-1% or something, in between is in between. More stupidity=more error, lower stupidity=lower error (tweak numbers for balance).

This would make the management and tracking of astronauts actually useful, and the devs have said we will track pilot careers, etc. (maybe their stupidity can be trained downwards).

Then you can always pilot yourself with even the stupidest pilot, and perhaps he gets "learning" points for success and gets smarter, and if it's to the point of being boring, you let the kerbs do it, but in a "legit" way from a space program management sense.

[SorryDave]

I have not been on the forums much, but it is easy to see that this is a heavily debated mod.

Often I see that there are non-MJ players who proudly fly without any aids. The MJ players often state (sometimes very defensively) how there is nothing wrong with using it.

I am a little of both types: I use Kerbal Engineer and Kerbal Alarm Clock because who wants to tediously flip back and forth among spreadsheets? I also enjoy launching 1000 rockets into orbit.

[GreeningGalaxy]

To be completely honest, I think MechJeb is a little cheaty. Don't hurt me!

I believe that KSP is about doing everything yourself, no matter how tedious or boring it may be. And even though MechJeb is more than an "autopilot," as it also provides lots of information on orbital properties and such, I still like to stay stock, using nothing but my skills and knowledge to complete any task.

The argument most people make about that is this: Stock KSP isn't detailed enough for you to be able to do everything yourself. Nuclear engines do all the reactor management for you, you never have to worry about kerbal life support or radiation or heat shielding, and using maneuver nodes is literally only a few button presses away from Mechjeb. I agree that doing stuff yourself is fun, but if you're playing an unmodded game, MJ is just a tiny tiny step away from you on the scale of how much the game does for you.

That said, my personal argument for not getting mods back when my game was stock was that I didn't care about realism, and was just having a lot of fun seeing what I could do under the constraints of the stock game, and only those constraints. If mods that improve the aerodynamics model, make nuclear engines more realistic, add more wing shapes, make engines scale their thrust with altitude, etc. don't feel right to you and undermine the kerbal aesthetic, I totally understand, but it is a bit strange to hear people talking about how they don't use mechjeb because they 'like to do everything themselves.'

Edited August 30, 2014 by GreeningGalaxy

[tater]

I agree that in many ways some sort of auto feature is actually "more realistic" in terms of gameplay (JPL doesn't plan out a slingshot, then have a guy standing by with a stopwatch waiting to do the burn manually, etc).

I'm pure stock just because I wanted to learn the game before I altered it---I really do think that there should be a stock mode that looks like this mod (it's a major PITA to have to remember that you have a probe someplace that news to make a burn in XXX game days, another in YY game days, etc, etc.

[Red Iron Crown]

I'm pure stock just because I wanted to learn the game before I altered it---I really do think that there should be a stock mode that looks like this mod (it's a major PITA to have to remember that you have a probe someplace that news to make a burn in XXX game days, another in YY game days, etc, etc.

Kerbal Alarm Clock is actually better for that. It's one of my top nominees for mods that should get their functionality implemented in stock.

[Dunbaratu]

I agree that in many ways some sort of auto feature is actually "more realistic" in terms of gameplay (JPL doesn't plan out a slingshot, then have a guy standing by with a stopwatch waiting to do the burn manually, etc).

There's a significant difference between using software outside your responsibility to help do tasks like this versus using software that *is* in your responsibility. That's the main reason I don't care for mechjeb, but don't mind if someone else wants to use it.

If you install an autopilot onto an integrated circuit chip installed in your plane, that chip itself is *not* piloting your plane - in a sense a human being is still doing it - its just a human being who worked at typing in software in an office on a computer keyboard some time in the past. Computers don't make decisions. The people who wrote the software for them made the decisions. And I want those people to be part of my Kerbal's Space Program, not entities that exist outside of it. If I can't make errors then it doesn't feel like a sense of accomplishment when I get it right, at least not to me. With mechjeb, I can't make errors in the autopilot's algorithm. Only the dev team of mechjeb can do that.

[tater]

I'm actually thinking that executing the burn is OK, too at some point. Early, you want to fly everything, because it's cool. When you have a bunch of stuff "in the air" at once, it would be nice to have your astronauts actually do something. Any such implementation would idealy have them no more prefect than a real person at doing the operation.

Heck, the tech tree might modify that. Mk1 pod has NO automation, for example. It would require the pilot, and any mechjeb like feature would use the pilot stupidity to add some error to any assigned piloting. A later command pod might have some automation, and it uses 1/2 pilot stupidity as the upper limit for error. Probe improvements in the tech tree have smaller and smaller error. (in any of these cases, if the player does it himself, then the burn is done however the player manages it).

Note that in space, the errors are not a huge problem, even launch, or kerbin reentry. The Mun… I'd want to land myself, or at least take over near the surface, as a small % error is a Bad Thing near the ground. Ditto docking, I'd think (errors are where those stranded verbal contracts come from )

[Frank_G]

In my 9 months of playing KSP, i tested MechJeb for about a week, before returning to manual flight. My maneuvers are more precise and save fuel all the time. Ok, i sometimes have to watch an hour of a transfer burn but who cares... a lot of time to relax, drink some tea, listen to music and think about things to do in KSP.

MechJeb is really a nice and complete mod, but it takes the fun and some spice out of the game for me. If i want info about my ship and about the ongoing flight, i go with VOID or Kerbal Engineer Redux. VOID is my favorite so far, because there is no need, to attach extra parts to the craft and i like to play KSP as vanilla as possible. Some people consider using MechJeb as cheating, but viewing from a point of realism, flying without an auto-pilot is really stupid. Its just more fun (at least for me). Installing it or not was and will be a consideration of personal preference.

[tater]

There's a significant difference between using software outside your responsibility to help do tasks like this versus using software that *is* in your responsibility. That's the main reason I don't care for mechjeb, but don't mind if someone else wants to use it.

If you install an autopilot onto an integrated circuit chip installed in your plane, that chip itself is *not* piloting your plane - in a sense a human being is still doing it - its just a human being who worked at typing in software in an office on a computer keyboard some time in the past. Computers don't make decisions. The people who wrote the software for them made the decisions. And I want those people to be part of my Kerbal's Space Program, not entities that exist outside of it. If I can't make errors then it doesn't feel like a sense of accomplishment when I get it right, at least not to me. With mechjeb, I can't make errors in the autopilot's algorithm. Only the dev team of mechjeb can do that.

I agree, hence my suggestion that if ever a stock feature, it is NOT an "autopilot" but would in fact represent Jeb flying (50% stupidity) and would have errors. The maneuver nodes assigned him would be the mission planners at mission control planning the mission, he'd be doing the flying, and would have some error bars based on his skill (a CHANCE of error, not a standard error. Nominally, with the node set, you can chase the marker and correct if you over burn, for example, until you get the green check. The "error" on the part of the pilots might just waste fuel, as they'd chase the marker (abstracted) til they got it right, but would waste fuel doing so.

Again, this is something I could see for larger space programs, along with the notion of "administering" such a program. Right now, astronauts mean exactly nothing in KSP, they are seat-fillers.

[Red Iron Crown]

If i want info about my ship and about the ongoing flight, i go with VOID or Kerbal Engineer Redux. VOID is my favorite so far, because there is no need, to attach extra parts to the craft and i like to play KSP as vanilla as possible.

Just FYI, the latest version of KER (1.0.x) has gone partless. Might be worth looking at again.

[sarbian]

With mechjeb, I can't make errors in the autopilot's algorithm. Only the dev team of mechjeb can do that.

And man, we sure make errors !

[regex]

Just FYI, the latest version of KER (1.0.x) has gone partless. Might be worth looking at again.

The latest KER is awesome. Much tighter GUI styling for laptops, more options, partless, includes Padishar's simulation goodness...

Back on topic...

[r_rolo1]

Well, TBH I always though that something like Mechjeb autopilot should be in the game ... and now, that we will have dificulty levels , even more: would not be a good thing to say to the people playing the lower dificulties ."Here, have this mini jeb plushie part, stick it in your cockpit and it will help you drive the ship" ? The rest of the functionalities ... it is stuff that other mods do, but it is always better to have it in one mod to skip all the issues that you can get out of trying to make mods work together ...

Disclaimer: ATM not using Mechjeb , but only because I come from a long break in the game ( 0.17 to 23.5 ) and want to get my meager pilot skills back

[WWEdeadman]

In my opinion MechJeb is pure cheating. At least the auto pilot is. (I use KER for dV and Alarm Clock for stopping time acceleration at a manouver nodes etc.)

Siriosuly, where is the fun in having MechJeb fly everyting for you? Where is the challenge? I have never used mechjeb, hell, I didn't use any mods for over 200 hours of gameplay, and still got to and landed on a lot of planets/moons. Anyone who can't play the game without the autopilot is just really bad at playing the game. And that is a fact, not an opinion. (If you use it cause you're bored of launching from Kerbin for the millionth time, or something like that, but you could do it yourself, that's fine BTW)

Also, especially when it comes to landing, Mechjeb is sirously effing wasteful on fuel. I don't like wasting fuel.

[Javster]

I used to rely on Mechjeb, but once I was in a career save without MJ, I managed fine without it.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, TBH I always though that something like Mechjeb autopilot should be in the game ... and now, that we will have dificulty levels , even more: would not be a good thing to say to the people playing the lower dificulties ."Here, have this mini jeb plushie part, stick it in your cockpit and it will help you drive the ship" ? The rest of the functionalities ... it is stuff that other mods do, but it is always better to have it in one mod to skip all the issues that you can get out of trying to make mods work together ...

Disclaimer: ATM not using Mechjeb , but only because I come from a long break in the game ( 0.17 to 23.5 ) and want to get my meager pilot skills back

Maybe you would only get MJ/autopilot if you had a really clunky flight computer.

[r_rolo1]

In my opinion MechJeb is pure cheating. At least the auto pilot is. (I use KER for dV and Alarm Clock for stopping time acceleration at a manouver nodes etc.)

Siriosuly, where is the fun in having MechJeb fly everyting for you? Where is the challenge? I have never used mechjeb, hell, I didn't use any mods for over 200 hours of gameplay, and still got to and landed on a lot of planets/moons. Anyone who can't play the game without the autopilot is just really bad at playing the game. And that is a fact, not an opinion. (If you use it cause you're bored of launching from Kerbin for the millionth time, or something like that, but you could do it yourself, that's fine BTW)

Also, especially when it comes to landing, Mechjeb is sirously effing wasteful on fuel. I don't like wasting fuel.

Hum, that is a contradiction of terms, isn't it ?

Anyway, that is a point that people hammered to death for ages ... and besides missing the fact that people making it are assuming that all the others get their fun in the exact same way than themselves ( it is that hard to believe that people might like/want to design ships, planes and rovers without the hassle of actually piloting them ? I do not remember Werner von Braun insisting to go in the pilot seat of all of his rockets ... ), I might point out that this is Kerbal Space Program, not Kerbal Rocket, Plane and Rover Pilot Simulator. Piloting is only a part of the game and if people want to focus elsewhere in the game, who am I or you to judge them ? That is like saying that using the stock ships or downloading some from the Spacecraft exchange is cheating, because you are skiping the fun of the game , that is clearly designing a functional rocket, plane or rover ...

And yeah, as far as I remember it, MechJeb autolanding is quirky, but it is efficient if you know when and how to use it ...

Edited August 30, 2014 by r_rolo1

[Mister Kerman]

*Grabs a handful of Aethon's popcorn*

[No one]

1) Arriving at a destination with MechJeb does not provide an equal feeling of satisfaction to getting there manually.

This is why I will never use a mod which makes the game easier* until I have landed and returned a Kerbal from every planet/moon (Other than Jool).

*Actually I wouldn't feel too bad about using FAR even though that makes things require less delta-v. I haven't used it yet because I'm currently all stock, but I might use it at some point in the future if I start using mods.