I finally decided to play on Career Mode for the first time in a long while...

[Commissioner Tadpole]

...and I am finding myself in the same pitfall that led me to leave to Sandbox: Hard-to-acquire science.

As you know, we start with very weak rockets lacking the most basic things like SAS and Solar Panels(two of my launches were destroyed because I lacked a SAS system), and due to this it's very hard to actually get to space and do things when you can barely get out of the atmosphere because your capsule's torque isn't enough to counteract the mysterious force that's tilting your rocket to the west.

Any tips? I alterady got a contract to get to the MÃœN for christ's sake, and I just barely managed an orbital flight! not to mention that I lost most of the science because the Kraken insists in attacking me at 4km height during reentry and destroying everything but my capsule, resulting in me losing my goo canisters

Edited September 13, 2014 by Commissioner Tadpole
Treaking Fypos!

[Tex_NL]

Launchpad, runway, KSC, shores, water, grasslands. All Biomes within walking distance. Get as much from those as you can for a free science boost.

'Landed' test contracts can also be a very cheap and easy source of science. Remove all fuel from the engine, activate it on the launchpad and recover for a full refund.

[O-Doc]

Any tips?

LV-T45s + Angle snap FTW.

[tater]

Huh? You can get all the 3d tier stuff in about 15 minutes I think. Do the "landed" contracts, and while you are out there, do crew reports, and take surface samples (at the KSP facility, right there on the launchpad). I think it's too easy, frankly.

[Commissioner Tadpole]

Ah. Those methods are quite cheaty.... but screw it, I'm missing vital parts! And besides, those are Kerbals we're talking about, so I don't know why I'm not believing that they would get smarter by observing the concrete they used to build a space center they use so much.

Anyway, thanks for the tips.

[Guest]

Launchpad, runway, KSC, shores, water, grasslands. All Biomes within walking distance. Get as much from those as you can for a free science boost.

I almost feel like SQUAD should just remove all the KSC biomes from the game and just put more parts into the Start node since getting the KSC biome reports is essentially just twenty tedious minutes of play for free.

[r4pt0r]

I see you just only got into orbit, but flybys are your friend early on, and also leaving Kerbin SOI just barely, snagging science, and returning. If you can accomplish those you can easily farm out minmus' biomes.

my favorite design uses 3 landers (with complete science loadout) all attached radially to the main craft. all 3 land in separate biomes and all have the fuel to land from LmO and return to Kerbin.

[tater]

I almost feel like SQUAD should just remove all the KSC biomes from the game and just put more parts into the Start node since getting the KSC biome reports is essentially just twenty tedious minutes of play for free.

I agree. There are a few things that they should presumably have ready to go. It's not like you'd design a reentry capsule, but fail to bother with a separator.

[magico13]

Don't forget that you can take science out of containers on EVA. That way if you lose (or decide to drop) goo containers and material bays it's no big deal since all the science is in the command pod. Also, you can take multiple crew reports by going on EVA, grabbing all the data out of the command pod, then going back in.

[SkyHook]

As soon as you can, design and fly a mission to Minmus. The planet's low gravity decreases the size and complexity, and with several experiments, you can get about 200-400 science per biome. You can make several hops to adjacent biomes for ALL TEH SCIENCE! Seriously..even with my constraints (life support, FAR, etc.), I was able to manage about 1700 science from my first (Manned) Minmus trip. Those EVA Reports and surface samples add up.

[Eric S]

...and I am finding myself in the same pitfall that led me to leave to Sandbox: Hard-to-acquire science.

I think this is a matter of experience. In a stock career mode, my first flight is a polar orbit where I pick up EVA science over all 9 biomes (only actually takes two orbits, so not that much time) plus the high over altitude EVA report if my launch was efficient enough, which is enough to unlock two full tiers and a good bit of the next tier. I don't bother farming surface altitude kerbin biomes. If I'm there, I'll grab it, otherwise I don't sweat them. My second flight tends to be dragging goo canisters and science juniors into orbit collecting those two at all altitudes. By my third time, I'm ready to flyby or even orbit the Mun or Minmus, and just getting into orbit of either of those can be huge science since the Mun has 15 biomes and Minmus has 9. I'll admit that getting all the "space over" EVA reports for the Mun can be a pain if you're not familiar with the biomes there, but there's biome maps to help if you're not.

Fourth flight tends to be a multi-biome landing at the Mun (3 or 4 biomes) or Minmus (all 9 biomes).

Once you get the negative gravioli detector, science starts flowing, because that experiment can be run per biome at both "space near" and "high over" altitudes.

What do your early career mode craft look like? What's your normal ascent profile? I'm just trying to figure out what the problem is, because I could probably orbit the Mun with just the first purchased tier of tech, and definitely with the second. This may be rocket design issues, it could be piloting issues. There may also be room for improved science gathering, but that wouldn't be the cause for having barely managed an orbital flight.

[Daffs]

Watch the youtube/Scott Manley Video's on doing all the science in two launches.

I didn't do this but I found the idea of a science lab / refueling depot in orbit around the mun/minmus is a great idea for reaping the science from all the biomes. His lander was good too.

My only other trick that gets me lots early on is to orbit Kerbin and gather EVA reports on different biomes, with a handful of goo's this can bring in the early points.

[Commissioner Tadpole]

I almost feel like SQUAD should just remove all the KSC biomes from the game and just put more parts into the Start node since getting the KSC biome reports is essentially just twenty tedious minutes of play for free.

Pretty much.

I see you just only got into orbit, but flybys are your friend early on, and also leaving Kerbin SOI just barely, snagging science, and returning. If you can accomplish those you can easily farm out minmus' biomes.

my favorite design uses 3 landers (with complete science loadout) all attached radially to the main craft. all 3 land in separate biomes and all have the fuel to land from LmO and return to Kerbin.

I think I can take on flybys, but barely leaving Kerbin's SOI and then returning is beyond my capacities.

And don't even bother suggesting landers - I'm far away from any kind of docking port.

Don't forget that you can take science out of containers on EVA. That way if you lose (or decide to drop) goo containers and material bays it's no big deal since all the science is in the command pod. Also, you can take multiple crew reports by going on EVA, grabbing all the data out of the command pod, then going back in.

Really? I tried to do that with a goo canister and nothing happened.

As soon as you can, design and fly a mission to Minmus. The planet's low gravity decreases the size and complexity, and with several experiments, you can get about 200-400 science per biome. You can make several hops to adjacent biomes for ALL TEH SCIENCE! Seriously..even with my constraints (life support, FAR, etc.), I was able to manage about 1700 science from my first (Manned) Minmus trip. Those EVA Reports and surface samples add up.

Well, I would prefer if there was a contract for exploring Minmus first. And I don't think my vessel will have enough for multiple biome hops, even in Minmus' low gravity.

I think this is a matter of experience. In a stock career mode, my first flight is a polar orbit where I pick up EVA science over all 9 biomes (only actually takes two orbits, so not that much time) plus the high over altitude EVA report if my launch was efficient enough, which is enough to unlock two full tiers and a good bit of the next tier. I don't bother farming surface altitude kerbin biomes. If I'm there, I'll grab it, otherwise I don't sweat them. My second flight tends to be dragging goo canisters and science juniors into orbit collecting those two at all altitudes. By my third time, I'm ready to flyby or even orbit the Mun or Minmus, and just getting into orbit of either of those can be huge science since the Mun has 15 biomes and Minmus has 9. I'll admit that getting all the "space over" EVA reports for the Mun can be a pain if you're not familiar with the biomes there, but there's biome maps to help if you're not.

Fourth flight tends to be a multi-biome landing at the Mun (3 or 4 biomes) or Minmus (all 9 biomes).

Once you get the negative gravioli detector, science starts flowing, because that experiment can be run per biome at both "space near" and "high over" altitudes.

What do your early career mode craft look like? What's your normal ascent profile? I'm just trying to figure out what the problem is, because I could probably orbit the Mun with just the first purchased tier of tech, and definitely with the second. This may be rocket design issues, it could be piloting issues. There may also be room for improved science gathering, but that wouldn't be the cause for having barely managed an orbital flight.

Normally they use the medium-sized rockets from Jeb's Junkyard, and are mostly divided in three stages; the first with a Mk1 Capsule, an FL-T400 tank and an LV-909 engine; the second with the same FL-T400 tank but accompanied by an FL-T200 tank but with the same LV-909 engine; and the last stage with a single main FL-T800 tank, with six other T800s radially attached with the help of radial decouplers, each of them with a LV-T45 engine. The second stage now uses the SAS I just recently unlocked, while the first stage typically uses two Goo canisters and one Science Jr. laborotory.

This loadout is just a sliver of Delta-V away from a Mun trip(7628m/s).

[juanml82]

I think you should use SRBs for your first stage, LV-T45 for the second stage and an LV909, maybe with just an FL-T200 as your upper stage.

That should let you do Mun and Minmus flybys.

Your upper stage should be perfectly capable of reentering the atmosphere. I think the lack of solar panels is the more limiting thing of the early tech nodes. You can carry batteries, but you can't reload.

[Renegrade]

As you know, we start with very weak rockets lacking the most basic things like SAS and Solar Panels(two of my launches were destroyed because I lacked a SAS system), and due to this it's very hard to actually get to space and do things when you can barely get out of the atmosphere because your capsule's torque isn't enough to counteract the mysterious force that's tilting your rocket to the west.

FYI: ALL stock command units (pods/cockpits/probe cores) have SAS integrated nowadays, AND reaction wheels. Note that SAS and reaction wheels are different things; Squad had a brainfart in the past which very much needs to die wherein they wrongfully became synonyms...

SAS: Uses your various items (reaction wheels, RCS, vectored thrust, aero control surfaces) to keep your ship pointed in one direction ('autopilot').

Reaction wheel: Spinny bit which can turn your ship (with magic overpoweredness and #nosaturation technology!).

The game engine actually models both of these independently, although all parts that have reaction wheels also have a SAS module built-in.

[Eric S]

And don't even bother suggesting landers - I'm far away from any kind of docking port.

Landers don't imply docking ports, it can be a lander that is capable of returning to Kerbin on its own.

Really? I tried to do that with a goo canister and nothing happened.

We need to get that sorted out, that can help a lot. You had run an experiment in a goo canister, keep the data (transmitting it makes this not work), and then EVA a kerbal, get the kerbal close to the goo canister, and right clicking on the goo canister doesn't bring up a menu? Or it brings one up that doesn't offer the option to take the data?

Normally they use the medium-sized rockets from Jeb's Junkyard, and are mostly divided in three stages; the first with a Mk1 Capsule, an FL-T400 tank and an LV-909 engine; the second with the same FL-T400 tank but accompanied by an FL-T200 tank but with the same LV-909 engine; and the last stage with a single main FL-T800 tank, with six other T800s radially attached with the help of radial decouplers, each of them with a LV-T45 engine. The second stage now uses the SAS I just recently unlocked, while the first stage typically uses two Goo canisters and one Science Jr. laborotory.

Hmmm... the description got messed up, in editing this I can see that you described the bottom stage in more detail than is showing in the message. Ah, found the problem, a " got deleted somehow.

At any rate, my best attempt at recreating this craft looks like your bottom stage has too high of a TWR (thrust to weight ratio, you could get away with using two T800s on each radially mounted LV-45) and I'm not sure about the lower lv-909 stage. If that's for circularization, I like to keep my circularization stage a little more powerful than that, long circularization burns tend to lead to changing the apoapsis while I'm trying to circularize.

[SRV Ron]

Grab all the science you can from Kerbal and testing contracts. Do manned flights with goo canisters and the material bay. You can pick up enough science to unlock the more advanced tech needed for low cost exploration.

Soon as you can unlock oxstat panels and the Too Hot thermometer, fulfill the Mun and Minmus explore contract when this cheap design, then place the probe back in orbit to fulfill additional data contracts.

You don't need to mess with complex Apollo style landings. Just build a simple ship to land directly on Mun and Minmus for missions that require a flag and bring back soil samples.

[timsfitz]

Yeah if u get all the walking distance stuff u can land on Minmus by the 2nd or 3rd launch.

[Srpadget]

With all the traffic here on the Forum complaining about how the science track is TOO EASY, I think it's good we hear the occasional "too hard" post. Folk with a pre-existing stable of finely-tuned craft and vast experience in both ship design and piloting are found in abundance here...but those are not the people that the science track is intended for. The science track and tech tree are a LEARNING TOOL for beginners. And I think it's important that our heroic and hardworking devs hear from those people, not just from those who do a crew-return from Tylo before breakfast.

That said, I see you wished for a Minmus contract before tackling Mun. I'm with you there--and you actually can make that happen.

If you have a vehicle with the dV to get to Minmus orbit, you can get to Mun orbit with the same vehicle. Right? So:

Launch your Minmus lander. Yes, I know, you don't have a contract. Don't sweat it. It's going to take DAYS to get there, and you'll have your contract soon enough.

Once it's left LKO and is on that long coasting trajectory for Minmus rendezvous, DO NOT WARP, DO NOT FINISH THE MISSION. Go back to KSC and make a second launch of the same type ship. Target this one for Mun. Don't worry that it doesn't have the T/W or dV to land, you're just trying to get to orbit. That trip takes about 5 hours one-way. Get into orbit, transmit a crew report. That gives you half of the criteria for the "Explore the Mun" contract, and that's enough.

Go back to KSC, and there should be a nice juicy "Explore Minmus" contract waiting for you. (You may have to do a bit of churn by rejecting some offerings and maybe taking a few "science from space near Kerbin" or "science from space near Mun" contracts. Which you can do, because you have a ship in Mun orbit and I assume you've got something in Kerbin orbit specifically to pick these up. But the Minmus contract WILL show up, well before your Minmus lander actually GETS to Minmus.)

[Commissioner Tadpole]

Amazing how everyone here is quick to answer!

I think you should use SRBs for your first stage, LV-T45 for the second stage and an LV909, maybe with just an FL-T200 as your upper stage.

That should let you do Mun and Minmus flybys.

Your upper stage should be perfectly capable of reentering the atmosphere. I think the lack of solar panels is the more limiting thing of the early tech nodes. You can carry batteries, but you can't reload.

Thanks for the tip, although the rocket I used for the orbital flight I barely managed to complete was exactly like you described.

FYI: ALL stock command units (pods/cockpits/probe cores) have SAS integrated nowadays, AND reaction wheels. Note that SAS and reaction wheels are different things; Squad had a brainfart in the past which very much needs to die wherein they wrongfully became synonyms...

SAS: Uses your various items (reaction wheels, RCS, vectored thrust, aero control surfaces) to keep your ship pointed in one direction ('autopilot').

Reaction wheel: Spinny bit which can turn your ship (with magic overpoweredness and #nosaturation technology!).

The game engine actually models both of these independently, although all parts that have reaction wheels also have a SAS module built-in.

Well, what I meant is that the capsules' reaction wheels aren't powerful enough to steer the entire rocket, needing a more powerful reaction wheel that you only unlock later on.

We need to get that sorted out, that can help a lot. You had run an experiment in a goo canister, keep the data (transmitting it makes this not work), and then EVA a kerbal, get the kerbal close to the goo canister, and right clicking on the goo canister doesn't bring up a menu? Or it brings one up that doesn't offer the option to take the data?

Yes, pretty much. Although it might have been because I didn't approach it quite enough. I'll have to see more about that.

At any rate, my best attempt at recreating this craft looks like your bottom stage has too high of a TWR (thrust to weight ratio, you could get away with using two T800s on each radially mounted LV-45) and I'm not sure about the lower lv-909 stage. If that's for circularization, I like to keep my circularization stage a little more powerful than that, long circularization burns tend to lead to changing the apoapsis while I'm trying to circularize.

Now that I think about it, yes, the lower stages DO have a bigger TWR, although not by much - the booster stage has 3.45 while the stage following that has 1.46, and both have very little fuel. On one of my rockets, I literally only used the first two stages for around 40 seconds, whereas the bulk of my mission was spent in the final stage, which had the most fuel(despite being so tiny).

[Eric S]

Now that I think about it, yes, the lower stages DO have a bigger TWR, although not by much - the booster stage has 3.45 while the stage following that has 1.46, and both have very little fuel. On one of my rockets, I literally only used the first two stages for around 40 seconds, whereas the bulk of my mission was spent in the final stage, which had the most fuel(despite being so tiny).

When playing stock, you want to avoid lifters with a TWR over 2.2, as it can push you over terminal velocity which drastically increases aerodynamic drag. I tend to aim for 1.4-1.8. If I have a TWR above that, then it's time to add more fuel, sometimes increasing the available delta-v in the mission stage and sometimes even eliminating an intermediate stage.

[Commissioner Tadpole]

When playing stock, you want to avoid lifters with a TWR over 2.2, as it can push you over terminal velocity which drastically increases aerodynamic drag. I tend to aim for 1.4-1.8. If I have a TWR above that, then it's time to add more fuel, sometimes increasing the available delta-v in the mission stage and sometimes even eliminating an intermediate stage.

Aaah, I see. It's just that I get worried that my rocket will begin to get Spaghetti-Thin and be prone to snapping easily, so I focus most of the power into the lowest stage to make it be more pyramid-like.

[Captain Vlad]

I almost feel like SQUAD should just remove all the KSC biomes from the game and just put more parts into the Start node since getting the KSC biome reports is essentially just twenty tedious minutes of play for free.

You can have my early flights to the North Pole when you pry my dead, frost-bitten, polar-bear gnawed fingers from them.

[Vanamonde]

This question about how to play the game has been moved to Gameplay Questions.

[Kryxal]

My initial TWR for booster stages is about 1.5 or so ... a big enough booster on a small enough rocket gets insane TWR right before burnout, so it's worth tweaking it down.