sedativechunk Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Hello fellow kerbalnauts! Not sure if this was ever talked about on these boards but I want to bring up the subject of the first man in space. Let me start by saying this is a slightly serious discussion from someone who's studied space and astronomy in college, I don't believe in crackpot theories like the fake moon landing or anything. I also have a huge respect (probably more than most Americans do) for what the Russia has done for space exploration in general. I am just curious as to see how other people feel or think on this subject. A few months ago I watched this documentary on amazon about Vladimir Illyushin and how he was the first man in space. Now yes, this was only a documentary, and documentaries can be made to convince their side of the few and etc. (like the fake moon landing ones). Most of them out there are total BS. With that being said, I've done some of my own digging and research into this question; was Vladimir Illyushin really the first man in space and not Yuri Gagarin? From one side of the story, I've heard that most of the documents on the early days of the Russian Space Program have been declassified. There were not "official" records of him ever having gone to space, and there are many accounts/witnesses that have said Illyushin did not go to space. Russia pretty much recognizes Gagarin as the first true man in space. All is good, right?When we start piecing things together, however, it does seem logical to think that Illyushin really did go to space or they tried to get him there. The story of it is, he did in fact go to space, but a problem occurred during reentry and he ended up crash landing somewhere in China I believe. Evidence to support this is the facts that he was supposedly in a car crash two days before Yuri Gagarin went to space. Isn't that kind of odd? Not only this, but the Soviet Union, their political system was nuts back then. They were a very scandalous country still shaped in the ways of Marxism-Leninism. They could and would have covered something like Illyushin's crash up if it were to cause some kind of political implications or negative image against the Soviet Union. Furthermore they were so notorious that they could have threatened everyone and anyone who could have known of Illyushin going into space. Even after the USSR disbanded, people still feared them hence why declassified documents give a different opinion. What do you all feel, here on the KSP forums? Has anyone else thoroughly read/researched this topic? I do this there are a lot of crackpot theories behind the death of Yuri Gagarin. I personally don't think he was assassinated as part of a cover up or anything, he was a national image of Russia. I do believe however, that it would have been possible that Vladimir Illuyshin was the first man in space and it could have been a cover up after a failed reentry and crash landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camacha Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I am missing the most important bit - why try to hide it when he did go to space? Even if he crash landed in China you just say you used the territory of your good friend and ally for your mission. Any damage can easily be covered up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASAFanboy Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I am missing the most important bit - why try to hide it when he did go to space? Even if he crash landed in China you just say you used the territory of your good friend and ally for your mission. Any damage can easily be covered up.Sino-Soviet split. China and Russia had different interests and hated each other in a mini-Cold War of their own by the 1960's. If they admitted he landed in China, it would've been a huge propaganda heyday for the Chinese government since they could now make up all sorts of myths on why the first man in space landed in their country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSlash27 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I haven't thoroughly researched this by any stretch, but I have heard of it before. The story goes Ilyushin's flight made it into space, but did not run according to plan and severely injured him on impact. Because of that, the flight was a failure. As a rule, the Soviet space program never admitted anything less than perfection, so the flight "never happened". No idea how much (if any) of this is true.Best,-Slashy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elthy Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Maybe it would have been a secret back then, but someone would have talked about it until now. We know quite much of soviet stuff that was classified years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godot Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I agree ... considering the current good relations between russia and china, none of them would have a reason to still maintain secrecy about it.Not to forget that nowadays we have in depth knowledge about more horrific events involving Kosmonauts (like the fate of Vladimir Komarov) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Gagarin's flight was announced by radio before he'd actually landed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lajoswinkler Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I wouldn't be surprised if this was true. Even after Stalin's death conditions in the society were insane. The whole USSR was a reenactment of Third Reich, but with different ideology. Fear. Pure fear and subordination to a system built on the principles of worshiping Stalin. Once you set up the system like that and you kill unwanted people and install brainwashed murderers in criminal agencies you've made invincible, it sticks. You can't rid of them unless you kill them.Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if prisoners from gulags weren't sent up there like monkeys to see what happens with human physiology.They could've encased it in top secret shroud so that only selected few knew what is the payload.Don't think they couldn't have been capable of it. USSR did a lot worse with lot more people and even today we know only tiny bits.If you think humans in general or even those who were supposed to be good (doctors, nurses) couldn't perform evil, you should check out the war crimes of Japan. People are beasts. Always expect the worst behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolai Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I wouldn't be surprised if this was true.That's not the question we should be asking, though. If we want to get to the truth of the matter, we should be asking, "What evidence exists that compels me to accept that this happened in a manner consistent with the stories?"If you start looking into things like the pilot rotation, or the manufacture and subsequent use of Soviet rocket hardware, or even looking at how the claimed radio intercepts of the mission could have occurred with the sorts of orbits the Soviets were using for their Vostok spacecraft, the whole idea falls apart pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lajoswinkler Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 That's not the question we should be asking, though. If we want to get to the truth of the matter, we should be asking, "What evidence exists that compels me to accept that this happened in a manner consistent with the stories?"If you start looking into things like the pilot rotation, or the manufacture and subsequent use of Soviet rocket hardware, or even looking at how the claimed radio intercepts of the mission could have occurred with the sorts of orbits the Soviets were using for their Vostok spacecraft, the whole idea falls apart pretty quickly.I was not talking about those "lost astronauts" who allegedly screamed help over radio. That's almost certainly a hoax. If you strap a human being into rocket as a payload, he/she doesn't need to speak anything. Its function is to be an organism subjected to test.Germans did it during Third Reich. Japanese did it. Not with rockets (because they still weren't advanced enough), though. I would be surprised if Soviets didn't, give the fact the country was hell on Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolai Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I was not talking about those "lost astronauts" who allegedly screamed help over radio.My mistake. Sorry about that.I would be surprised if Soviets didn't, give the fact the country was hell on Earth.I'd advise you to look into manufacture and subsequent use of Soviet rocket hardware. Rockets take a lot of resources to put together, and it's hard to manufacture one and then use it in complete secret. It's impossible to state absolutely, obviously, but I think we can state with reasonable confidence that the Soviets didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
problemecium Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Perhaps they would have covered it up because "crash-landed" means he went splat. Not a very monumental achievement when it ends like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Perhaps they would have covered it up because "crash-landed" means he went splat. Not a very monumental achievement when it ends like that.Again, Gagarin's flight was announced before he landed. Had somebody had a fatal incident a few days earlier, it wouldn't even have taken place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sedativechunk Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Interesting replies, thanks everyone. Like some of you have been bringing up, I am on the boat that they could and would have covered it up because of their national pride. Even to this day, even after the end of soviet Russia and their new world relations, think about it. Wouldn't Russia look kind of stupid admitting after 50+ years that Vladimir Illyushin was actually the first man in space? They would have to rewrite history books, tear down statues of Gagarin, and ultimately make themselves look bad. Another thing to think about is, how would a rumor like this even surface? Even for those who hated Russia back in the 50's and 60's, why would you create a conspiracy about someone else going up into space within their own country? It sounds like this conspiracy theory may actually have some truth to it. Why do I care about any of this? Well, don't you all feel Illyushin should get the credit then for being the first man in space if he really was? Even if his flight was a crash land, he would have still technically been the first person to break Earth's orbit and risked his life in doing so. I don't think we will ever know the real answer. I think the history books accept Gagarin as the first man in space, but I think it's always going to bother me and I'm always going to question if he was really the first one. Not that he isn't a hero by any means and accomplished a great feat himself in the first successful orbit and reentry from space, but I will always wonder if he really wasn't the first one to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I think we do conclusively know that Vladimir Ilyushin can't have been killed in a spaceflight in 1961; because he lived for another 69 years after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benzman Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I think we do conclusively know that Vladimir Ilyushin can't have been killed in a spaceflight in 1961; because he lived for another 69 years after that.He died in 2030? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 2010. Note to self; do not attempt to do basic maths after three hours of sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specialist290 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I'm afraid this particular topic falls afoul of our guidelines against discussing conspiracy theories, so I'll be locking this one up. Y'all have a nice day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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