Editor being revised for 0.90: What would you like to see?

[Red Iron Crown]

According to yesterday's dev notes and the 0.26 planned feature list, the editor is getting a much needed revamp. Here's what's been revealed so far:

"Tired of trying to guess which key from WSADQE you should press to rotate some way or another? So are we. The gizmos are but one part of a massive Editor overhaul we are working on for 0.26, and they should make life a LOT easier. Really, there aren’t many ways to overstate just how much of an improvement this should be. I think trying to guess part rotations during construction is the most frustrating part of the game at the moment, so finally being able to work on this… Well it feels good! I’m adding both a rotation and a translation gizmo here. Translating parts is going to be something of a new feature actually… More on that later, but construction is going to feel like a whole new game if things go as planned here.

"Another big thing I was able to do here, which isn’t very visible but should make life much easier going forward, I’ve merged both the VAB and SPH into one single scene. How? Well, apart from scenery, craft orientation, designated launch site and camera behavior, there isn’t anything else the SPH and VAB scenes have different from each other. In fact, about 90% of the scene logic is an exact copy on both of them, so instead of having two scenes with a lot of repeated components, there is now a single Editor scene, and the game moves into it by calling a method where you specify which Facility you want to head into. The options there being SPH or VAB, of course. The implications of such a feature are very far-reaching, but at the moment all we want from it is the added simplicity of working with a single Editor scene (the scenery is loaded on top from separate scenes). Also, this should make it very simple to add a switch to the editor UI to let you simply flick between Mirror (SPH-style) or Radial (VAB-style) symmetry modes. On the same build, on the same vessel."

- HarvesteR

Sounds very good! I thought I'd start this thread for further suggestions to improve the editor, seems like a good time to pool our suggestions so the devs can incorporate any ideas that they like while they are working on it.

Edit to add more info from this week's devnotes:

There are now four construction modes when you are building a ship.

Place Mode: This is the standard mode, where you click on parts to pick them up or attach or detach them from the ship.

Offset Mode: In this mode, you can select parts from the ship, and on selecting, a translation gizmo will pop up, allowing you to slide the part freely, without detaching it.

Rotate Mode: In this mode, you can rotate the selected parts using a rotation gizmo. This mode also works on unattached parts, and you can also switch to it while attaching too.

Root Mode: This mode is only available if you have an eligible set of parts selected. Activating root mode will allow you to select another part (from the children of the selected set) to attach by. It will reflow the hierarchy much like docking does, so the selected part becomes the new root of the hierarchy. This one is particularly useful for subassemblies and such.

The last few days were mostly devoted to ironing out issues with the new implementation, and improving the way the editor handles rotating parts and symmetry. It is now possible to switch between Radial and Mirror symmetry modes using the Y key (a UI button will follow shortly), both in the VAB and SPH. This is amazingly useful for building shuttles and hybrid type vessels.

- HarvesteR

Some more details emerged in this week's dev notes (paraphrased for brevity):

- Some symmetry fixes.

- Persistent crew assignment.

- More keyboard shortcuts (including ones for the new gizmos) that are rebindable.

- Fixed Undo/Redo functionality.

- Some reworking of how struts and fuel lines work internally (not clear to me how this will affect players).

- Elimination of the category tabs, replaced by filters. User-definable categories.

More devnote information:

To recap on last week, I’ve made several tweaks to improve usability on the editor gizmos. Angle-snapping is improved now: holding LeftShift (remappable) will engage extra precision, reducing the angle snap interval from the default 15° to 5°. This also works with both gizmos. The offset gizmo snaps to a 0.2 unit sized grid, or 0.1 when holding shift.

I added a new edge-highlighting effect. ... this new edge-highlighting effect is now used to highlight valid root candidates when using the root tool, to highlight valid destination parts (in flight) when transferring crew members around, and also to highlight parts when you mouse over their staging icons, both in the editor and in flight.

The improved angle snap granularity is a bit of a letdown to me after using Editor Extensions for so long, let alone the high degree of precision that PartAngleDisplay permits (looks like those mods are not redundant just yet). The new part highlighting looks great (pic here).

My own suggestions:

- Better keyboard shortcuts: Being able to switch part tabs and pages by keystroke. Hopefully the "gizmos" can be manipulated by keys, too. Confirmed.

- Better camera manipulation that doesn't require a middle mouse button or scroll wheel, to better support laptop users. True 6DOF camera control would be best.

- More robust symmetry. If parts can be placed individually, they should be able to be placed with symmetry (just try putting two turbojets on the new SP+ 2-way adapter). Also permit lower symmetry than parent parts (e.g. can place two parts with symmetry on four boosters made with symmetry). Symmetry bugs are being worked on.

- Larger buildings. I'm not really into making enormous craft, but I know a lot of people are and the VAB/SPH can feel a bit confining.

- Buy, borrow, steal, or reimplement m4v's RCS Build Aid. It is an incredibly useful tool for construction.

- Allow all context menu items in action groups. Allow action group items to be added to staging. Allow action group editing while in flight.

- Thumbnails of parts when moused over in the staging list. Allow context menu access through clicking staging icons.

What things would you like to see added or changed regarding the editor?

Edited November 12, 2014 by Red Iron Crown
Added devnote info.

[FishInferno]

- Buy, borrow, steal, or reimplement m4v's RCS Build Aid. It is an incredibly useful tool for construction.

yesyesyes. But my impression is that Squad doesn't like additional info boxes, so probably not.

Allow all context menu items in action groups. Allow action group items to be added to staging. Allow action group editing while in flight.

This, too. I want to be able to set action groups for fuel tanks, full throttle/0 throttle engines, and fuel lines on/off

[Sirrobert]

I want to see Editor Extentions

[BudgetHedgehog]

I want to be able to define specific engines for the CoT. Say, building shuttles - once I put the OMS on, the CoT takes into account the SSME as well which makes balancing the OMS nigh on impossible. And during the final balance, it's taking into account the OMS engines as well instead of just the SRBs and SSME.

Another instance - VTOLs. Separate out the engines used for vertical and horizontal flight to tell if they're both balanced right.

[MKI]

I will have to wait and see at what they are doing before suggesting it. For all we know the changes they are implimenting are covering a lot of what is proposed.

Simply put the Editor can be changed A LOT. But at the same time doesn't need to be changed at all. As any player now is accustom to it.

All I can say is i feel the hint of this udpate being a basis for something bigger than we realize. Im sure it has something to do with upgradable buildings.

[Red Iron Crown]

I want to be able to define specific engines for the CoT. Say, building shuttles - once I put the OMS on, the CoT takes into account the SSME as well which makes balancing the OMS nigh on impossible. And during the final balance, it's taking into account the OMS engines as well instead of just the SRBs and SSME.

Another instance - VTOLs. Separate out the engines used for vertical and horizontal flight to tell if they're both balanced right.

I've worked around that issue by tweaking the thrust of the undesired engines to 0 for analysis. Makes for some interesting fails when I forget to tweak it back up. I agree that some simpler method would be much better.

I will have to wait and see at what they are doing before suggesting it. For all we know the changes they are implimenting are covering a lot of what is proposed.

My thinking is that we can make our suggestions now before it is fully implemented, or even had its features finalized. If a suggestion is already planned, great! The problem with waiting too long to discuss it is that the changes might be too far along to incorporate good suggestions. I figure the editor won't be revisited for a long time after 0.26 if at all, so this is our chance to ask for the things we want and actually have a chance of them being implemented.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I've worked around that issue by tweaking the thrust of the undesired engines to 0 for analysis.

Ingenious! Can't believe I didn't think of that..

[Darnok]

My own suggestions:

- Better keyboard shortcuts: Being able to switch part tabs and pages by keystroke. Hopefully the "gizmos" can be manipulated by keys, too.

- Better camera manipulation that doesn't require a middle mouse button or scroll wheel, to better support laptop users. True 6DOF camera control would be best.

- More robust symmetry. If parts can be placed individually, they should be able to be placed with symmetry (just try putting two turbojets on the new SP+ 2-way adapter). Also permit lower symmetry than parent parts (e.g. can place two parts with symmetry on four boosters made with symmetry).

- Larger buildings. I'm not really into making enormous craft, but I know a lot of people are and the VAB/SPH can feel a bit confining.

- Buy, borrow, steal, or reimplement m4v's RCS Build Aid. It is an incredibly useful tool for construction.

- Allow all context menu items in action groups. Allow action group items to be added to staging. Allow action group editing while in flight.

- Thumbnails of parts when moused over in the staging list. Allow context menu access through clicking staging icons.

+1 for all

I would want to see more action groups and we should be able to assign action group to command part. So after you dock to space station and pick "current command" on part of station... pressing key 2 won't execute action from shuttle or SSTO, it will only trigger command from selected space station module.

I want to be able to define specific engines for the CoT. Say, building shuttles - once I put the OMS on, the CoT takes into account the SSME as well which makes balancing the OMS nigh on impossible. And during the final balance, it's taking into account the OMS engines as well instead of just the SRBs and SSME.

Another instance - VTOLs. Separate out the engines used for vertical and horizontal flight to tell if they're both balanced right.

You can set zero thrust for engines you don't want to see.

[Prime flux]

Vertical snap function. Would be great to make sure thing match up, for an example multiple dockingports

[Superfluous J]

I want the gizmos to be something you can click, but on them it shows the keys you'd hit to do the same thing. That way we don't lose keyboard functionality but instead can see what to do with the keyboard to get what we want.

I also want everything from Editor Extensions plus more granular vertical snap.

[Sirrobert]

What do you mean with granular vertical snap?

[Superfluous J]

What do you mean with granular vertical snap?

In the current Editor Extensions, you turn on vertical snap and it snaps to the center of the part. I want to be able to cycle through options:

1x: Snap to the center like it does now.

2x: Snap to 2 places, 1/3 and 2/3 of the way down the part.

3x: Snap to 3 places, 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 of the way down.

4x: Snap to 4 places, 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5th of the way down.

...etc.

And also maybe the option to snap to the very top and very bottom (but still on the side) to make placing landing gear a little easier.

Edited October 16, 2014 by 5thHorseman

[KandoKris]

+1 for all

I would want to see more action groups and we should be able to assign action group to command part. So after you dock to space station and pick "current command" on part of station... pressing key 2 won't execute action from shuttle or SSTO, it will only trigger command from selected space station module.

Oh Yes Yes This sounds like a great idea. if the Devs don't implement that soon somebody should so make a mod for it

I'd also like it if they could just work out the glitches that see me always moving the camera to place parts in large builds

[Sirrobert]

In the current Editor Extensions, you turn on vertical snap and it snaps to the center of the part. I want to be able to cycle through options:

1x: Snap to the center like it does now.

2x: Snap to 2 places, 1/3 and 2/3 of the way down the part.

3x: Snap to 3 places, 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 of the way down.

4x: Snap to 4 places, 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5th of the way down.

...etc.

And also maybe the option to snap to the very top and very bottom (but still on the side) to make placing landing gear a little easier.

I see. So next basicly turn the vertical snap into another circle that lets you set degrees of snap. I like it

[Random Tank]

They should add in the functions of TweakableEverything... The fact you can't attach stuff to shielded docking ports because you can't open them in stock is plain dumb... Also, toggling crossfeed in the editor is really useful, as normally you have to remember to do it every time you launch a ship, or else you drain a tank you don't want to drain :/

[Red Iron Crown]

They should add in the functions of TweakableEverything... The fact you can't attach stuff to shielded docking ports because you can't open them in stock is plain dumb... Also, toggling crossfeed in the editor is really useful, as normally you have to remember to do it every time you launch a ship, or else you drain a tank you don't want to drain :/

So it drains a .... random tank? *sunglasses*

Love the granular vertical snap idea. I believe Padishar was planning something along those lines for Part Angle Display but is holding off until the new editor is implemented. Another planned option was to match vertical position of an already-placed part, which I can see being incredibly useful.

[CaptRobau]

After what I've read about 0.26 and what's been added in 0.25, the only thing that I really need in there is a button or vertical snap. Sometimes you just need that precision.

yesyesyes. But my impression is that Squad doesn't like additional info boxes, so probably not.

RCS Build Aid didn't always have a info box and the core functionality of the mod works perfectly without it. At the most you're going to need to press extra on the Thrust Vector button, to get the visual representation of RCS balancing.

[Supergamervictor]

I would like a better save system.

• A much more organized system that allows us to place crafts into "folders" if you want to call them that
  
• Include a search bar and organize system (amount of parts,alphabetical,etc)
  
• An autosave feature in case of crash (able to change it on a settings menu at the editor)
  
• much better revert system where if you didnt want the new design you can see the changes you did on it on a toolbar menu
  

In terms of camera

• Allow extensive movement area for people like me who likes to build massive crafts
  
• A wireframe mode to remove parts which are clipped
  

UI

• A toolbar extension where you can easily change certain settings
  

-Part clipping

-Camera Speed

-Autosave

-wireframe mode

-Disable/Enable Left Click (usefull for certain situations)

-Merging Parts

• A search bar and organizer for parts (ie.Cost,Type,etc)
  

In construction

• Allow a part merging system like Ubio's Welding System to significantly reduce part count
  

• Support System (A feature to solidly rig your parts without struts at cost of weight and fuel)
  

• GIVE US ROBOTIC PARTS!!!!!!!
  

Well,thats only what I'd like to see in the editor change.I hope someone can relay this message to squad

Edited October 16, 2014 by victor tan

[Red Iron Crown]

Great ideas, victor tan. The toolbar opens up a lot of possibilities for more options without cluttering up the main UI.

I think a dialog when opening a saved craft or starting a new one confirming that the current design will be lost if unsaved would be a good addition, too.

[John FX]

My own suggestions:

- Better keyboard shortcuts: Being able to switch part tabs and pages by keystroke. Hopefully the "gizmos" can be manipulated by keys, too.

- Better camera manipulation that doesn't require a middle mouse button or scroll wheel, to better support laptop users. True 6DOF camera control would be best.

- More robust symmetry. If parts can be placed individually, they should be able to be placed with symmetry (just try putting two turbojets on the new SP+ 2-way adapter). Also permit lower symmetry than parent parts (e.g. can place two parts with symmetry on four boosters made with symmetry).

- Larger buildings. I'm not really into making enormous craft, but I know a lot of people are and the VAB/SPH can feel a bit confining.

- Buy, borrow, steal, or reimplement m4v's RCS Build Aid. It is an incredibly useful tool for construction.

- Allow all context menu items in action groups. Allow action group items to be added to staging. Allow action group editing while in flight.

- Thumbnails of parts when moused over in the staging list. Allow context menu access through clicking staging icons.

What things would you like to see added or changed regarding the editor?

A big YES to everything you said...

I`d like `shift` to be removed from the hotkey to zoom in either editor. I can`t count the times when flying that I have pressed shift to zoom in and ended up messing up my trajectory and fuel remaining (sometimes docking)

I`d like to keep scroll wheel zoom but add something for laptop users that can zoom in and out quickly (not painfully slow as it currently is)

I`d also like to be able to place four fuel tanks and have two different engines placed with symmetry on opposing tanks (if that made sense, think battenburg cake)

RCS build aid for sure

Allow all context menu items in action groups. Allow action group items to be added to staging. Allow action group editing while in flight. Very much this, and allow more actions to be done in the VAB (like extend antenna etc) so parts can be placed better

Maybe a text descriptor when hovering on the part in staging as well?

One option I would like is to decide whether to automatically cut thrust on staged parts to stop accidentally staged boosters thrusting into your craft and destroying it (obviously not SRBs). Sometimes I use this `feature` to deorbit spent stages (very low thrust, aim retro, stage then thrust forward and to the side leaving the spent stage to deorbit)

I`d like KAC to be something built into the game, also RPM and KER (build computer, not flight) RCS build aid, editor extensions and EVE. Those would be a good start and make vanilla feel like a real game for me.

EDIT : Welding parts in an interesting one and I feel this could be done without the user having any knowledge it has been done. Say you build a craft. It has an engine, a fuel tank a separator and a pod. There is no reason that the physics between the engine and the tank needs to be calculated every frame, they may as well be treated like one part and run on `physics lite` until any form of impact happens at which point they should have `full physics`. This would lead to less wobbly rockets but with the full ability to break up in the way they do now. Maybe keep two versions of a craft in memory and switch between? Might not save memory but would speed up the flight screen with large craft.

I`d like robotic parts like hinges and rotators and motors. Would expand the game no end. Sounds like a post 1.0 addon though to me at this stage.

EDIT 2:

After what I've read about 0.26 and what's been added in 0.25, the only thing that I really need in there is a button or vertical snap. Sometimes you just need that precision.

There already is a vertical snap. `v` in the editor activates it IIRC

Edited October 16, 2014 by John FX

[Joonatan1998]

Being able to change the root part would be usefull.

[John FX]

Being able to change the root part would be usefull.

You want `selectroot` mod. It does exactly what it says on the tin...

I agree it should be a stock behaviour though.

[Red Iron Crown]

There already is a vertical snap. `v` in the editor activates it IIRC

Guess how I know you use Editor Extensions?

SelectRoot is an essential construction mod, it makes subassemblies much easier to use. Not sure how it would fit in with Squad's "keep it simple" philosophy though.

(Changing thread title to correct version number, yay Beta!)

[GusTurbo]

One thing that might persuade the devs to implement more technical features (like those available in Part Angle Display and Editor Extensions) would be to have the option to toggle between "Basic" and "Advanced" mode in the VAB/SPH. That way you could keep it simple for new players while giving powerful tools to people who know how to handle them. Basic could be like the current stock editor setup, while the more advanced one would have features like PAD and EE.

[Boomerang]

One thing that might persuade the devs to implement more technical features (like those available in Part Angle Display and Editor Extensions) would be to have the option to toggle between "Basic" and "Advanced" mode in the VAB/SPH. That way you could keep it simple for new players while giving powerful tools to people who know how to handle them. Basic could be like the current stock editor setup, while the more advanced one would have features like PAD and EE.

This sounds great