I just mapped the Mun - in 3D - topography style!

[togfox]

By taking Corax\'s telemetry plugin and playing with the output guess what I can make?

A 3d topography map of any part of Kerbin or the Mun I like. 8)

Now I admit this is probably the nerdiest thing I\'ve done in my life but to see if I could do it I took a crater Vincent has named McConnell Crater (see thread http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/index.php?topic=9049.0) and thought I\'d try to map part of it. Here are the results.

The red dot is my landing site

[togfox]

And this is what the landing site looks like in the game. You\'ll see some resemblance but it is not an exact representation. That is expected. It\'s a map! It\'s not a 3D image ripped from the guts of KSP. This is about exploring, surveying, documenting. Explorer style.

That mound on the right and the rise on my left is visible in my first map above.

A long shot - not exciting - but you can see the valley I\'m parked in. If I had better maps I could choose a better landing spot.

The 3D image is not 100% accurate. The more \'surveying\' I do, the more accurate the map becomes. If there are blank spots in my data then the map is extrapolated and approximated. If I think a feature is not represented well enough, I just need to survey that feature and provide more data for it and my map is updated. Oh, and by surveying, I mean sending a crew there and surveying. No short cuts!

When I decide to set up my Mun base I\'m going to produce a topography of the area, evaluate what is flat land and what just looks like flat land and then plan my buildings properly.

I\'m such a nerd. ;P

(Mod note: posted over two posts due to size)

[E. F. Kranz]

That\'s really awesome.

[Meatsauce]

Congrats on seemingly being the first person to have ever done a \'real\' science mission in KSP.

You know what would be badass...

An instrument that we can place on probes, and can create these images for display at the Kerbal Science Academy or via instrumentation.

[Shedao]

I guess a 'normal' person would ask: 'why are you making such an effort for an easy task like finding a good landing spot'

The nerd in me just apploads you for this great work and is simply amazed

You should make a map of the entire moon with all mountains and find the inclination for the lowest possible orbit *nerdgasm*

Ok serious now: With the new terrain engine, the entire Mun and Kerbin will change in shape, aren\'t they?

[Ydoow]

Congrats on seemingly being the first person to have ever done a \'real\' science mission in KSP

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[togfox]

You know what would be badass...

An instrument that we can place on probes, and can create these images for display at the Kerbal Science Academy or via instrumentation.

OMG! Lightbulb moment! I think i can do this whilst in orbit!

[VincentMcConnell]

Hey, just stumbled upon this thread. Thanks for mapping my crater.

Actually, McConnell crater was arbitrarily picked while still in orbit. Then I made the landing there and found that the ground actually wasn\'t too bad of a landing site. Very cool that you did this. I\'d like to do something similar for a mountain I named after my dog on the near side.

[togfox]

I\'d like to do something similar for a mountain I named after my dog on the near side.

If your mount still exists with the new terrain then post screenies and ill see if i can map it.

[SteevyT]

If your mount still exists with the new terrain then post screenies and ill see if i can map it.

I wonder if there is anyway you could set up a craft in a polar orbit that returns data. Just leave it orbiting and create a full 3D map.

[PakledHostage]

A 3d topography map of any part of Kerbin or the Mun I like. 8)

Brilliant! Remote sensing comes to KSP. You\'ve given me an idea for when other planets are eventually added... To the Batcave!

[zombiphylax]

So, how would the rest of us go about recreating this?

[Corax]

So, how would the rest of us go about recreating this?

Basically, you take a capsule, put it on surface of the Mun, move it around, and record the height of terrain at your location onto a piece of parchment. Move a bit further, and repeat the process. That\'s really old style. Nowadays, we use tools to help us with that kind of task, such as rovers, and altimeters with radio transmitters... and a lot of patience and dedication.

[mossman]

So, togfox, did you just drive around the area with a rover and use the altitude records from the telemetry plugin to make the map?

If so, I\'d think you could do this from orbit fairly easily with a radar altimeter, of which I believe there is a plugin for.

[PakledHostage]

So, togfox, did you just drive around the area with a rover and use the altitude records from the telemetry plugin to make the map?

If so, I\'d think you could do this from orbit fairly easily with a radar altimeter, of which I believe there is a plugin for.

I\'ve tried to do it from orbit but I can\'t get it to work on my system because my radar altimeter doesn\'t detect the munar surface while moving at orbital speeds. It detects the surface fine when I\'ve slowed down to final approach speeds but I can\'t map much of the Mun\'s surface that way.

I think this is related to the reports over in the KSP development thread where people\'s landers are falling through the Munar surface.

[Corax]

I\'ve tried to do it from orbit but I can\'t get it to work on my system because my radar altimeter doesn\'t detect the munar surface while moving at orbital speeds. It detects the surface fine when I\'ve slowed down to final approach speeds but I can\'t map much of the Mun\'s surface that way.

If you look at the animation in my post above, it\'s obviously being done from orbit. Because the previous version of the telemetry plugin didn\'t provide altitude above ground, togfox had to rely on a rover. The problem with doing it from orbit is the really limited range of the altimeter. You have to be very close to the surface for it to detect anything, which explains your observations.

I think this is related to the reports over in the KSP development thread where people\'s landers are falling through the Munar surface.

I don\'t think these issues are directly related. Measuring altitude above ground appears to be limited by how collision detection is handled in Unity; you have to be at the highest terrain LOD for the raycast ('altimeter') to detect anything, for me here that means at or below about 3km around the Mun, or 10km around Kerbin (which makes orbiting really difficult ). It might be that on different graphics settings, the LOD is handled differently, which would explain people falling through the surface. So while there may be a common denominator (the LOD model), the issues are still different ones; in one case, the LOD decreasing too fast for useful results, in the other case maybe the LOD increasing too late to allow a safe touchdown.

I think both methods, orbiter and rover, have their justification: Orbital mapping for coarse resolution, wide area; and ground based surveying for high resolution, but limited area maps.

[Zephram Kerman]

This might work:

Set up your orbital probe in a dangerously low orbit for good resolution. Reduce orbit velocity so that it frequently requires a small amount of thrust to maintain this dangerous altitude. Pop up as you approach mountains, push down into the valleys. Save more often than you crash. Have fun barnstorming in space!

[PakledHostage]

If you look at the animation in my post above, it\'s obviously being done from orbit. Because the previous version of the telemetry plugin didn\'t provide altitude above ground, togfox had to rely on a rover. The problem with doing it from orbit is the really limited range of the altimeter. You have to be very close to the surface for it to detect anything, which explains your observations.

Thanks, but I wrote my own altimeter plugin so I\'m able to adjust the range that it works over. As I said in my previous post, it doesn\'t work on my system while moving at orbital speeds. That doesn\'t mean it won\'t work on other peoples machines. I know my computer is marginal for playing KSP (it is only a little netbook). Also, the security settings on my work computer cause the map in your post to not show up as an animation, so it wasn\'t obvious that your measurements were done from orbit.

Mu and HarvestR\'s explanation over in the other thread of what might be causing the problem suggests to me that the collision meshes aren\'t being filled in under my spacecraft while it is moving at orbital speeds. That prevents the altimeter from working and it also allows the spacecraft to fall through the Munar surface without a collision being detected. To reiterate, my altimeter does work from sub-orbital speeds and it does work from higher than 3 km.

If I get a chance, I\'ll try running it on a faster computer and will report back what. In the mean time, it is great that it works for you.

[Corax]

Thanks, but I wrote my own altimeter plugin so I\'m able to adjust the range that it works over. As I said in my previous post, it doesn\'t work on my system while moving at orbital speeds. That doesn\'t mean it won\'t work on other peoples machines. I know my computer is marginal for playing KSP (it is only a little netbook). Also, the security settings on my work computer cause the map in your post to not show up as an animation, so it wasn\'t obvious that your measurements were done from orbit.

Mu and HarvestR\'s explanation over in the other thread of what might be causing the problem suggests to me that the collision meshes aren\'t being filled in under my spacecraft while it is moving at orbital speeds. That prevents the altimeter from working and it also allows the spacecraft to fall through the Munar surface without a collision being detected. To reiterate, my altimeter does work from sub-orbital speeds and it does work from higher than 3 km.

If I get a chance, I\'ll try running it on a faster computer and will report back what. In the mean time, it is great that it works for you.

I agree, without seeing the animation it isn\'t quite that obvious. I didn\'t mean to sound demeaning or anything...

Of course I had hoped my plugin would work for others as well, as I hadn\'t heard anything to the contrary.

[togfox]

I used a rover with telemetry plugin.

If there is a \'radar altimeter\' then I haven\'t seen this yet. the crxTelemetry isn\'t much use in orbit as the orbital deviations in KSP tends to be larger than the hills and gully\'s I wish to map. This means in mountains/troughs in my map are due to the orbit deviations and not the actual terrain.

If there is another tool available I\'m keen to try that.

[PakledHostage]

If there is a \'radar altimeter\' then I haven\'t seen this yet. the crxTelemetry isn\'t much use in orbit as the orbital deviations in KSP tends to be larger than the hills and gully\'s I wish to map. This means in mountains/troughs in my map are due to the orbit deviations and not the actual terrain.

If there is another tool available I\'m keen to try that.

I\'m trying to develop one but I haven\'t got it working yet. As I mentioned above, I can measure terrain height while I\'m flying at sub-orbital speeds, but something seems to be limiting my ability to do it at orbital speeds.

The spoiler below contains a sample map that I created from data acquired while flying NW out of KSC. Lowest elevations are dark blue while highest elevations are red. Black pixels are 'no data' pixels. You can just make out the coastline and the mountains to the NW of KSC in the image.

My radar plugin measures the distance from the spacecraft to the terrain by scanning a 'beam' from side-to-side in a ±40° arc. It subtracts the resulting distance vector from the spacecraft\'s position vector to get the terrain height at locations between the angular limits of the beam. I record the data to a file and then use another application to process the data into a bitmap.

All the pieces are in place for this to work but at this point I seem to be limited by the game engine (I know that I\'m WELL outside of the intended use of the game here). Maybe I\'ll get this working eventually but for now I\'m stuck.

If I get it working and if it doesn\'t violate the prohibition on reverse engineering the game, then I\'ll share my results and the plugin.

[tncm]

What program do you guys use for the 3D mapping, and how I could I (a noob) start to do this?

Eventually we may map the entire Mun!

[PakledHostage]

What program do you guys use for the 3D mapping, and how I could I (a noob) start to do this?

I rolled my own by modifying my old Mandelbrot Set Explorer project. (Do I get uber geek points for that?)

[Caleb1]

I rolled my own by modifying my old Mandelbrot Set Explorer project. (Do I get uber geek points for that?)

Hey this looks nice and the intended game could get this in a while. It would be awesome

[togfox]

PakledHostage: Your idea of terrain elevation is more suited for mapping (no disrespect to Corax). The crxTelemetry records the altitude of the telemetry part - not the altitude of the terrain. This is obviously as designed and it does this well. What you\'re doing is far more fit-for-purpose. If you\'d like me to play test to see if I can get a different result then I\'m happy to do so. Raw data files and 3rd party programs for mapping do not scare me. As you can see in the OP I\'ve used the same technique myself.