Ulsa (united lunar states of america)

[frankm134]

I have recently learned that NASA is testing a new rocket that will take stuff to the moon. but more currently I have heard a rumor that they are planning a moon base called united lunar states of America, or new America. I would like to hear how plausible this is and would it pass the united states' government in the present.

[vger]

Uhh... where did you read this?

[Frida Space]

Building a permanent base, even on the moon, probably won't happen soon. There are so many challenges to overcome (life support technologies, astronaut psychology, protection from radiation...) and so much testing to do that it definitely won't be before the next decade or so that we see something really happening out there. If you're interested, in 2017 NASA will launch a probe called Lunar Flashlight to investigate the moon's water ice deposits. Here is the thread about it: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/96697-NASA-s-Lunar-Flashlight-Mission

But that mission will be the furthest NASA has gone in developing life support technologies. I know a few people who work at NASA, and they say too that a moon base is far from happening. I think the rumors you heard are probably false.

Plus, NASA will have to put a lot of effort in getting the SLS program funded by the new Congress, so I guess a moon base is really the last thing they'll be thinking of.

[MoeKitsune]

Was I the only person who thought of Elsa while reading the title?

[Bill Phil]

A Lunar Base is easy, especially if you built logistics back in the 80s.... Oh wait. We didn't.

The ISS can last for a good while without resupply, and maybe algae could be used as food primarily. Recycling water will likely be common, so as to make the lunar ice last a long time. I recommend a crew of four, so you can use the buddy system at all times.

The initial construction could be done easily with Von Neumann machines that construct habs with about half a meter of regolith for radiation protection.

So, the base is easy, we just need to develop Von Neumann machines and maybe genetically engineer super-algae for food, and it recycles CO2.

[Tery215]

It's rather pointless to call it the ULSA, especially with the cost of putting enough humans there to have more than one "lunar state" would be a little much.

[KerikBalm]

My sarcasm detector is giving strange readings on that 2nd to last post.

".... Oh wait. We didn't."

Sarcasm detected.

"The ISS can last for a good while without resupply, and maybe algae could be used as food primarily"

Ummm, no it can't, sarcasm?

"done easily with Von Neumann machines .... we just need to develop Von Neumann machines and maybe genetically engineer super-algae for food"

Sarcasm?

[vger]

Was I the only person who thought of Elsa while reading the title?

Elsa can be the name of the polar base that we build right on top of the ice.

[Bill Phil]

My sarcasm detector is giving strange readings on that 2nd to last post.

".... Oh wait. We didn't."

Sarcasm detected.

"The ISS can last for a good while without resupply, and maybe algae could be used as food primarily"

Ummm, no it can't, sarcasm?

"done easily with Von Neumann machines .... we just need to develop Von Neumann machines and maybe genetically engineer super-algae for food"

Sarcasm?

Oh no, the first part about logistics was. But algae is actually considered as a food source for deep space colonies. It's easy to care for and is extremely common on Earth, which means that it can probably use a plethora of resources to grow. So it's a perfect food source.

The Von Neumann machines are also not sarcastic comments. A 3D printer was launched to the ISS recently to print small plastic tools. An adaption in the fairly near future could mine materials and print pieces of itself, then it would assemble a copy and the process repeats until enough for construction are present.

[Dkmdlb]

So it's a perfect food source.

There's only one problem...

[Bill Phil]

And that is...

[xenomorph555]

1. There is no moon base plan.

2. There is no will to build a moon base.

3. US cannot claim the moon.

4. That name is bad...

[NERVAfan]

Unfortunately, the US signed the Outer Space Treaty (a huge mistake, IMO), which would prevent the US from claiming the Moon, so even if they did build a Moonbase they wouldn't call it anything like that.

[Bill Phil]

Unfortunately, the US signed the Outer Space Treaty (a huge mistake, IMO), which would prevent the US from claiming the Moon, so even if they did build a Moonbase they wouldn't call it anything like that.

Besides, America isn't on the moon. Maybe UST, or United States of Tycho. Or USC, with Copernicus.

[Kryten]

How would a single base be the 'united states of' anything?

[Bill Phil]

How would a single base be the 'united states of' anything?

I didn't say a single base, but I was trying to imply large city-states in a federation in Tycho or Copernicus.

[K^2]

Yeah, we all know it will take 13 colonies.

[Bill Phil]

Yeah, we all know it will take 13 colonies.

Nope. 12. Come on, people, we all know this!

But what about algae as a good source? I'm not an expert, but it should be easy, right?

And then, what about underground caverns being pressurized? Is that practical* in any way? Or are surface domes more practical?

*practical as in feasible

[Kryten]

I highly doubt any algae could provide all essentials elements of somebody's diet, even a GM one.

[KerikBalm]

But algae is actually considered as a food source for deep space colonies. It's easy to care for and is extremely common on Earth, which means that it can probably use a plethora of resources to grow. So it's a perfect food source.

Do you know of anyone eating a diet of algae now? There is a little use of some seaweed in food, but its far from a staple like rice or wheat.

You were sarcastic about building logistics (infrastructure you mean?), which can be done with a concerted effort - but its not easy.

The same goes for Algal foods - We need to develop that first, its not a trivial task

The Von Neumann machines are also not sarcastic comments. A 3D printer was launched to the ISS recently to print small plastic tools. An adaption in the fairly near future could mine materials and print pieces of itself, then it would assemble a copy and the process repeats until enough for construction are present.

Umm, there is a giant leap in between there. People tend to vastly over estimate 3d printing. It doesn't really do anything you can't do with older CNC machines, except it uses plastics and not metals. But to make the machine, you need a lot of metal containing parts. Then of course you need massive advances in AI....

We are a long long way from von neumann machines.

When you consider the infrastructure that could have been built in the 80's, you're sarcastic, but then you're willing to handwave away the technical challenges to GMO algae suitable as a food source, and even more so, the technical hurdles to making von neumann machines....

It doesn't make sense to me.

As to the OP's question - it sounds patently ridiculous

[K^2]

I highly doubt any algae could provide all essentials elements of somebody's diet, even a GM one.

Why not? Everything we need, short of some minerals, is bio-synthesized. Algae is a perfect machine for doing so.

Not to mention that human body is capable of synthesizing most things anyhow. You really only need the algae to produce sugar, essential amino acids, and some vitamins.

[vger]

Why would you need self-replicating machines in order to build a base on the moon?

If you want to do manufacture there, focus on the paneling, which I think NASA suspects is already possible with current technology. The lunar surface can provide the raw materials to construct a system of modular panels from which to assemble a habitat. Bring the rest of the tools with you and put it together upon arrival.

Edited November 8, 2014 by vger

[Bill Phil]

Why would you need self-replicating machines in order to build a base on the moon?

If you want to do manufacture there, focus on the paneling, which I think NASA suspects is already possible with current technology. The lunar surface can provide the raw materials to construct a system of modular panels from which to assemble a habitat. Bring the rest of the tools with you and put it together upon arrival.

It then requires one launch of a small machine that would proceed to build the base. No construction equipment needed, just the machine.

[K^2]

But you are effectively requiring an ultimate engineering problem (self-replicating machines) to be solved as prerequisite for completing an infinitely easier problem.

We can build a moon base right now. Nobody seems to want to fund it, but we have the resources if people suddenly decided that it's worth funding. We can't build self-replicating machines of any relevant complexity or durability, regardless of how much money we throw at it.

[Bill Phil]

Do you know of anyone eating a diet of algae now? There is a little use of some seaweed in food, but its far from a staple like rice or wheat.

You were sarcastic about building logistics (infrastructure you mean?), which can be done with a concerted effort - but its not easy.

The same goes for Algal foods - We need to develop that first, its not a trivial task

Umm, there is a giant leap in between there. People tend to vastly over estimate 3d printing. It doesn't really do anything you can't do with older CNC machines, except it uses plastics and not metals. But to make the machine, you need a lot of metal containing parts. Then of course you need massive advances in AI....

We are a long long way from von neumann machines.

When you consider the infrastructure that could have been built in the 80's, you're sarcastic, but then you're willing to handwave away the technical challenges to GMO algae suitable as a food source, and even more so, the technical hurdles to making von neumann machines....

It doesn't make sense to me.

As to the OP's question - it sounds patently ridiculous

I wasn't over estimating 3d printing, and I was using the general term. Should I have said additive manufacturing devices? I said fairly near future, as in within 100 years but not 50. And if you consider how much technology is advancing already, it's likely. I don't understand why you need AI for Von Neumann machines, they're given input dependent commands. Then they're told to gather resources and build what they need to.

Btw, I didn't hand wave anything...

I just said fairly near future, which it is.

What does GMO mean?