DRM and KSP

[sal_vager]

Light DRM would be cracked, rendering it pointless, heavy DRM would also be cracked, rendering it pointless and inconveniencing the players, any kind of DRM will cost Squad money to implement and maintain, removing resources from KSP.

No game made needs DRM to work or to sell and I long for the day when the company executives realize it loses more money than it makes and I won\'t have to find cracks to play my legally bought games.

We are seeing a rise in Independent game producers and the big companies are worried, they don\'t like competition, not from Indies, and certainly not from the used game market which EA\'s top guy has stated he\'s trying to kill.

Companies like EA, Ubisoft and others will claim 'piracy' is killing their business until the final day when they collapse, despite the game industry thriving more these days than it ever has before, people are spending on smaller casual games, browser and phone games, and on Indie titles like Minecraft and KSP.

DRM is a fools game, don\'t play it.

[Sordid]

Companies like EA, Ubisoft and others will claim 'piracy' is killing their business until the final day when they collapse, despite the game industry thriving more these days than it ever has before, people are spending on smaller casual games, browser and phone games, and on Indie titles like Minecraft and KSP.

You know what\'s also funny? That only companies that make mediocre games complain about that. I don\'t recall ever hearing that rubbish from, say, id Soft, Blizzard, Bioware, or Valve. So to the companies that do complain I\'d say this, perhaps people\'s unwillingness to pay for your games has less to do with the prevalence of piracy and more to do with the fact that your games are crap? That ever occur to you, hm?

[AlternNocturn]

That\'s easier said than done, I\'m afraid.

Well, they don\'t have to shut the link down, simply have the file removed, just like they\'re doing now. It\'s still a better investment than adding DRM.

[Moach]

DRM is quite simply a 'no-go'

harvester himself has more than once claimed to have his own array of issues against the very idea of it (which i do too)

bottomline is - DRM only serves to treat paying users as potential thieves - it gives crackers an 'enjoyable challenge' to take them apart, and then pirates never even have to care about the damn thing

in the end, people who pay are pissed off, whereas people who steal are 'rewarded' with not having to deal with the inconvenience

Squad does a good job in presenting themselves in a way that makes it clear that piracy would really mean stealing - it\'s a different thing when you know it\'s real people hard at work, and not some greedy corporation who thinks of users only as 'income'

so that\'s that - while DRM means 'cap\'n patchy' saves the day - having no DRM really has the same final impact on the whole thing, but shows users that their satisfaction is more important than their dollars

and you wouldn\'t wanna go against dedicated devs who are willing to give you that big a vote of confidence, right? :

:cheers:

[Deviant]

(im only 13 years old and i understand the law and video game crackers)

Lol.

No matter what you try to do, DRM will not stop people from pirating your game.

Keep doing what you\'re doing. It\'s in development. They need money to keep the development going. Spread the word of KSP, people will buy, and you will see money come in.

But I hate when people cry about DRM. If they choose to, so be it. They are protecting their rights. Don\'t cry about oh it will break the game and Indie and blablabla.

[rustymcclintock]

the DRM I hate the most is the kind that makes me have an active internet connection 24/7...that\'s bullshit. What if I take my comp over to a buddies house or my internet is down? But I agree that DRM kinda treats everyone like thieves. I always decide to buy a game on merit if I play a 'less-than-purchased) version and it knocks my socks off. I\'m buying it. like skyrim. Is it so crazy to think that people should get to really try a game before they buy it? Anyone ever play 'vampire rain'? I bought that POS for 60 bucks, played for about 20 mins and flew back to the store only to be told to gtfo.

[socket7]

The only DRM I\'d ever want to put into a game would be one that can only add to the players experience.

Perhaps your name comes up as a kerbal or somewhere when you pay for the game. 'Username memorial space center' for example.

This could be hardcoded in somewhere that is not impossible, but not trivial to find. End users would never see it as anything but bonus, 'Cool! My Name is on something!'

At the same time, potential pirates of the game will say 'Wait a minute. This game has my NAME ON IT. I don\'t want to release it to the net as a torrent, I\'ll get caught.'

The Hardcore pirates will create an app that will let you change the name to whatever you want. You can\'t stop them, they probably do software cracking with a white hat as a day job, and put the black hat on at night. So why bother thwarting them. Such a light sort of protection might not even be worth their time.

The ultimate result of a system would be the paying player gets something that makes his copy of KSP unique (even if it\'s just a silly nameplate). Casual pirates won\'t want to host their copy (because it has a silly nameplate) and hardcore pirates might not bother with what would probably be a 1 minute hack in a hex editor.

But I stand behind what HarvesteR says regardless of my own views.

[rustymcclintock]

'Wait a minute. This game has my NAME ON IT. I don\'t want to release it to the net as a torrent, I\'ll get caught.'

Bahahahaha! yeah right. It seems a lot of folks on this board have no idea how piracy really works...

[semininja]

Bahahahaha! yeah right. It seems a lot of folks on this board have no idea how piracy really works...

He has a point, though; some of the less-aggressive pirates would be deterred by the idea that they are publicly labeling themselves as such.

[Sordid]

Your name could be hardcoded in somewhere that is not impossible, but not trivial to find. Hardcore pirates might not bother with what would probably be a 1 minute hack in a hex editor.

That seems to be contradictory.

[Caesar15]

If you put DRM on it, I\'ll no longer play, and I\'ll regret donating.

I do not and will not support DRM, I crack the disk requirements of all my purchased games, I bypass online activation if possible, and if not possible I simply do without, games are entertainment and I can find other things to do instead of jump through some imposed restrictions forced on me.

People who 'pirate' will still do so no matter what, and most crackers do it for the challenge alone, most 'pirated' games are downloaded on a whim from links from friends and usually never played, they end up lost and forgotten on harddrives, it\'s only the legitimate users who end up disadvantaged.

GOG, Humble bundle and others have shown that DRM free games work, if Squad pulled a Ubisoft, how would that make you feel?

Also, steam is still DRM, no matter what you think, your steam accounts can be shut down and you can lose the lot.

Steam ahs guranyeed that if steam is ever shut down they ll release a patch to make there games steam free(np steam needed0 thats if they can though.

[rustymcclintock]

He has a point, though; some of the less-aggressive pirates would be deterred by the idea that they are publicly labeling themselves as such.

Nah someone would simply do the following.

step 1: enter wallmart.

step 2: purchase visa giftcard

step 3: purchase KSP and for your registration put your 'pirate name'

step 4: distribute

step 5: ???

step 6: Profit

Besides is placing someones full name into the game even legal? You really have to look at it because there is a place where users can draw the line.

[Elukka]

Steam\'s a bit of a double-edged sword, innit? On the one hand it\'s stupid and invasive, on the other hand any indie game that ends up there gets massive exposure and tons of sales. I wouldn\'t be against KSP on Steam if it also remains available via the KSP Store.

Games on Steam don\'t necessarily have to use Steam as DRM. I have a couple indie games on Steam that don\'t require Steam to be running or indeed even be installed and aren\'t in any way tied to my Steam account. The same keys work for downloading them from the developers\' sites, so all Steam is in this case is a retailer and extra hosting.

[Sordid]

Games on Steam don\'t necessarily have to use Steam as DRM. I have a couple indie games on Steam that don\'t require Steam to be running or indeed even be installed and aren\'t in any way tied to my Steam account. The same keys work for downloading them from the developers\' sites, so all Steam is in this case is a retailer and extra hosting.

True, but I doubt many members of the 'if it\'s on Steam, I\'m not buying it' crowd are going to bother looking that closely.

[sal_vager]

Add to this that there is no steam client on linux, and getting it to work in wine is very difficult and not everything will work, then yeah, if it\'s released on steam I won\'t be playing it in future despite having donated twice.

Desura looks ok and everyone can use that, if Squad do decide to go that route, they may just want to keep it totally in their control which I can understand, so they don\'t have to worry about a 3rd party.

Also, if one day valve goes into administration do you really think they will have a say on whether to release the DRM cracks or not? Just look at how quickly Game UK shut down, their heads are still spinning.

[samstarman5]

The only DRM I\'d ever want to put into a game would be one that can only add to the players experience.

Perhaps your name comes up as a kerbal or somewhere when you pay for the game. 'Username memorial space center' for example.

This could be hardcoded in somewhere that is not impossible, but not trivial to find. End users would never see it as anything but bonus, 'Cool! My Name is on something!'

At the same time, potential pirates of the game will say 'Wait a minute. This game has my NAME ON IT. I don\'t want to release it to the net as a torrent, I\'ll get caught.'

The Hardcore pirates will create an app that will let you change the name to whatever you want. You can\'t stop them, they probably do software cracking with a white hat as a day job, and put the black hat on at night. So why bother thwarting them. Such a light sort of protection might not even be worth their time.

The ultimate result of a system would be the paying player gets something that makes his copy of KSP unique (even if it\'s just a silly nameplate). Casual pirates won\'t want to host their copy (because it has a silly nameplate) and hardcore pirates might not bother with what would probably be a 1 minute hack in a hex editor.

But I stand behind what HarvesteR says regardless of my own views.

So you want to turn consumerism into sponsorship. That is so flawed on so many levels it can never be funny. The main thing wrong with this is it works for those developers and publishers who are of the opinion that you are just leasing the game, not buying it. Companies like Ubisoft and Blizzard who support always-online DRM will feel quite justified to just shut off their servers on a whim because they feel they made enough money off the game. Who cares about the gamer because they were just leasing the game.

As for your other assertions, Rusty said it best that a lot of people don\'t know what all is involved in piracy.

[N3X15]

[mod]Off-topic OS-fanboy chestpounding removed. I'm also considering locking this topic if it happens again.[/mod]

[rustymcclintock]

I\'m also considering locking this topic if it happens again.

We were discussing the different operating systems in respect to piracy and anti-piracy. I understand keeping order but, really? Don\'t clamp your grip down on a given populous too much, as long as were not veering way off and posting our favorite pony pics, or swapping halo 3 stories, let a conversation play out and see how it pertains to the situation. And please, we don\'t need threats from you. I know your a moderator, and you probably take that seriously, but don\'t try and be some super-cop bully. If your gonna lock it then do so, if not then don\'t but don\'t use threats as a measly form of intimidation against the very same people who support you.

[N3X15]

We were discussing the different operating systems in respect to piracy and anti-piracy. I understand keeping order but, really? Don\'t clamp your grip down on a given populous too much, as long as were not veering way off and posting our favorite pony pics, or swapping halo 3 stories, let a conversation play out and see how it pertains to the situation. And please, we don\'t need threats from you. I know your a moderator, and you probably take that seriously, but don\'t try and be some super-cop bully. If your gonna lock it then do so, if not then don\'t but don\'t use threats as a measly form of intimidation against the very same people who support you.

No, you were both fighting over which OS is better, period. Don\'t try to spin it around when one of the responses was just 'buy a pc'. But if you really want to play chicken with a moderator, that\'s fine with me. I\'ve got nothing better to do today than play EVE, so anything to break from the tedium of asteroid mining is perfectly great.

[Guest GroundHOG-2010]

Steam ahs guranyeed that if steam is ever shut down they ll release a patch to make there games steam free(np steam needed0 thats if they can though.

Apart from the grammer that needs to be cleaned up, if steam was to be shut down, they don\'t have to do it.

'According to the Steam Subscriber Agreement, Steam\'s availability is not guaranteed and Valve is under no legal obligation to release an update disabling the authentication system in the event that Steam becomes permanently unavailable'

Wikipedia.

While steam is a good system, I think this game will do better off it.

(Note, I do not represent the views of squad or any other game company. I just believe that steam and KSP won\'t work togeather (and I don\'t want to have to go on the internet every time I want to play KSP)).

[FourTee2]

All the authentication system does is check for a text file with your Steam ID in it? I would assume that it wouldn\'t be all to difficult to disable by hand, and on top of that I\'m sure one of the hypothetically-ex-Valve-employees would eventually help out with the project... they seem like that kind of company, ya know?

[socket7]

So you want to turn consumerism into sponsorship. That is so flawed on so many levels it can never be funny. The main thing wrong with this is it works for those developers and publishers who are of the opinion that you are just leasing the game, not buying it. Companies like Ubisoft and Blizzard who support always-online DRM will feel quite justified to just shut off their servers on a whim because they feel they made enough money off the game. Who cares about the gamer because they were just leasing the game.

Sponsorship would be paying money for OTHER people to see your name on things. Sponsorship is not having your name included in your personal copy of the game for free as a bonus. So quite simply, it\'s not sponsorship. Sponsorship would be Squad holding a contest to have a stock rocket in every copy of KSP named after the contest\'s highest bidder.

Squad has never taken the stance you are leasing the right to play KSP. You buy KSP, you own a copy of KSP. Not only that, you get future upgrades free of charge. They only ask you follow the EULA which says 'Don\'t pirate it' 'Don\'t Decompile it' and a few other legal things I don\'t feel like looking up (no warranty is implied, this is alpha software use at own risk probably).

Finally, KSP doesn\'t use game servers since it has no multiplayer. Even if Squad no longer existed, KSP would still run. The update servers could be gone too and the game would still run at whatever version you have

Squad is not Blizzard or Ubisoft. I suggest you look up some of harvester\'s posts on his view\'s of piracy and\' buying leases for games\' instead of buying the game. You\'ll like what he has to say

[Sordid]

Squad has never taken the stance you are leasing the right to play KSP. You buy KSP, you own a copy of KSP. Not only that, you get future upgrades free of charge. They only ask you follow the EULA which says 'Don\'t pirate it' 'Don\'t Decompile it' and a few other legal things I don\'t feel like looking up (no warranty is implied, this is alpha software use at own risk probably).

I\'m sorry, but I have to disagree. If I own it, I can do whatever I damn well please with it. If the EULA says 'don\'t decompile it', then that\'s like a car manufacturer saying 'you can drive it around, but you\'re not allowed to peek under the hood'.

I don\'t blame Squad for this, because that\'s just how software in general work. Everyone does it. But it still bugs me to no end.

[sal_vager]

Thats the rub though, the software industry believes you don\'t own software, you just buy a license to use it, same thing is true with the music and movie industries, they say you buy a license to use one copy in a limited way, the EULA is supposed to be legally binding on this.

However, no software EULA has been tested in court as far as I\'m aware, and the general feeling amongst journalists and legal departments is that they wouldn\'t stand up to scrutiny, especially as many EULA\'s try to remove your rights, some have gone so far as to have specific language that is designed to prevent you from taking the company in question to court.

In a way it\'s worse with digital distribution, you don\'t have a disk, box and manual to point to, all you really have to prove you possess a 'license' is a digital receipt, usually an email, that could be argued in court as being faked, if you were to shoplift a game however you can always say you lost the paper receipt or bought it second hand.

Maybe if Squad decided in future to release the code under an open source license, you could truly 'own' a copy, as there could be no possibility of falling foul of licensing issues.

[rustymcclintock]

No, you were both fighting over which OS is better, period. Don\'t try to spin it around when one of the responses was just 'buy a pc'. But if you really want to play chicken with a moderator, that\'s fine with me. I\'ve got nothing better to do today than play EVE, so anything to break from the tedium of asteroid mining is perfectly great.

Play chicken? you mean by exercising my freedom to speak my own opinion? Sorry I don\'t cower under the table from boogeymen over the net. 'buy a pc' was referring to one of the users having an issue with linux I believe. Then someone told me that all computers are pc\'s to which I replied back that PC was a brand name, as well as a descriptor. No 'fan-boy chestbumping' ever took place. All that occurred was a moderator want\'s to feel big and tough and push others around. Even now your threatening me because I\'m speaking against your actions. Not cursing, or CAPSLOCKING. Calming refuting my position. You\'ve got nothing to do and want to bully others.

As readers may notice my original response wasn\'t all that hostile, simply asking you to lighten up and keep in mind that we all support ksp and are helping to shape it, and squad, into a game, and company, of tomorrow. Then, again, you threaten to take action against me. If this is the height of your day, or your expecting me to rage, sorry to disappoint.