[1.12.x] Mark IV Spaceplane System (August 18, 2024)

[Joachim]

Hurrah

[caipi]

You must be using FAR/NEAR because the nodes are removed with them since they were causing phantom drag you can change this if the you look in the right CFG file.

He doesn't necessarily have to use FAR/NEAR. As you can see in my previous post: Nertea put the FAR/NEAR-config files for this mod in the patch directory and if you don't delete them (because you don't need them), then they'll be used as if you are using FAR/NEAR, even if you don't use it.

All my MarkIV parts had incorrect temperatures and 0 drag as well as a different max crash speed.

[blowfish]

He doesn't necessarily have to use FAR/NEAR. As you can see in my previous post: Nertea put the FAR/NEAR-config files for this mod in the patch directory and if you don't delete them (because you don't need them), then they'll be used as if you are using FAR/NEAR, even if you don't use it.

All my MarkIV parts had incorrect temperatures and 0 drag as well as a different max crash speed.

The patches are set to only activate under FAR or NEAR. If they're activating without the required mods, then it's a bug.

[Nertea]

Ok, so in MM, FOR =/= NEEDS. FOR causes the patches to always load :S. This is of course Very Bad , and is the cause of practically all the bugs reported in the last pages. I'm really sorry, I should have checked things out a little better.

This is my buggiest mod ever .

1.2.2

• Fixed a major bug in the MM configs that would cause all parts to always have their FAR/DRE/TS patches loaded
  
• Fixed low impact tolerance of Mk4 Cockpit, Crew Cabin and Drone Core
  
• Fixed the dry mass of the Extended LFO and LF fuselages being 1/3 too low
  
• Fixed a few more FAR omissions
  
• Fixed attach symmetry on the Mk4 Triple Adapter
  
• Improved the look of the Mk4 Cockpit's intakes
  
• Disembarking from the Mk4 Cockpit should now be prioritized to the front hatch
  
• Hatches from the Crew Cabin and Cockpit should be easier to click on
  

Besides that, I fixed some things including the ugliness of the cockpit intake area. Also have a cute WIP thing as apology.

To all that asked questions/ other bugs/stuff, I'll get to you later tonight, have to run off now.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Nertea

[Wanderfound]

Ok, so in MM, FOR =/= NEEDS. FOR causes the patches to always load :S. This is of course Very Bad , and is the cause of practically all the bugs reported in the last pages. I'm really sorry, I should have checked things out a little better.

This is my buggiest mod ever .

But it's also a very cool mod, bringing much-needed Thunderbirdyness to KSP.

Good stuff is always difficult; if it was easy, someone else would've already done it.

Thank you.

[blowfish]

What does the MM FOR tag do anyway?

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

I've seen "FOR[Foo]" described as meaning "I am Foo, and these are my patches that I expect to be loaded with me." MM understands it to mean that Foo exists, even if there's no Foo.dll, so such patches will always run. NEEDS[Foo] does what it sounds like.

[Logan.Darklighter]

But it's also a very cool mod, bringing much-needed Thunderbirdyness to KSP.

Good stuff is always difficult; if it was easy, someone else would've already done it.

Thank you.

This. Definitely this. Agreed. This is a cool mod - and it will get better.

[Captain Sierra]

I'm really sorry, I should have checked things out a little better.

This is my buggiest mod ever .

Oh stop being like that. You're one of the best modders on the forums. You're entitled to screw up every now and again.

Besides that, I fixed some things including the ugliness of the cockpit intake area. Also have a cute WIP thing as apology.

http://www.areadenialgames.com/ksp/mk4inline.png

Ooh very pretty!

Edited December 15, 2014 by Captain Sierra

[Hodo]

So I have been working on somethings, using this mod and a few others and this is what I came up with in my career save.

My newest VTOL SSTO. It is still going through testing so I am not 100% on it yet, but so far I think I may have fixed the nose loader option for the craft. I borrowed from Firefly for the solution.

Edit- and after 30 more minutes of fine tuning..... it is nearly done.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Hodo

[caipi]

I took the liberty and edited the Patches\MkIVCLS.cfg to be more useable. Please feel free to use it.

I don't know if you agree with the cargobay being passable (I think it makes sense though, especially if you have manned ships docked in the bay), but the docking nose should definitely be passable in my opinion.

// Mark IV System Connected Living Spaces Support
// Requires ModuleManager and CLS to function
@PART[mk4crew-1]:HAS[!MODULE[ModuleConnectedLivingSpace]] 
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleConnectedLivingSpace
        passable = true
    }
}
@PART[mk4cockpit]:HAS[!MODULE[ModuleConnectedLivingSpace]] 
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleConnectedLivingSpace
        passable = true
    }
}      
@PART[mk4nose-docking]:HAS[!MODULE[ModuleConnectedLivingSpace]] 
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleConnectedLivingSpace
        passable = true
    }
}    
@PART[mk4cargo-1]:HAS[!MODULE[ModuleConnectedLivingSpace]] 
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleConnectedLivingSpace
        passable = true 
        surfaceAttachmentsPassable = true
    }
}      
@PART[mk4cargo-2]:HAS[!MODULE[ModuleConnectedLivingSpace]] 
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleConnectedLivingSpace
        passable = true                     
        surfaceAttachmentsPassable = true
    }
}      
@PART[mk4cargo-tail-1]:HAS[!MODULE[ModuleConnectedLivingSpace]] 
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleConnectedLivingSpace
        passable = true                    
        surfaceAttachmentsPassable = true
    }
}      

[Arctodus]

OMG I CAN HAS A THUNDERBIRD?!

I may have actually squee'd in delight at seeing this! I play modless, I was just browsing and contemplating taking the plunge and getting KAC - this is coming with it too, now!

[Nertea]

1.1.2 is up on CurseForge too now.

Maybe talk with the damned robotics guys. Because I was thinking after posting, that a two position system would be ideal. Similar to how a C-130 doesn't open its door all the way while doing air drops because of the fact that doing so could send the plane into a nose dive. Picture related.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608000759131934583&pid=15.1&P=0

Also, thanks for liking the boat.

DR wouldn't really help here without making the mod dependant on it, which I don't like. I heard lo-fi had a plugin where the animation's progress could be set via a tweakable bar though. It sounds almost like what this needs, I may look into it at some point.

Nertea, you really can't see it from the photo, but the Mk2 fuselage tanks do pinch the upper inside cargo space slightly. Wouldn't be a problem with low-profile rovers, but full 2.5M parts might clip/collide with the Mk2 parts in that configuration. It's up to you of course if you want to make the dorsal wing root, but I wanted to make sure you were aware.

Indeed I am aware. Still, I would say it's "good enough for now" .

Greetings,

After multiple installs, eliminating ATM, MM and several other mods I have found that there seems to be some sort of conflict between MSS 1.1.1 and NearFutureSolar when using ModuleManager.

Playing a career game and for testing purposes with all research complete.

Clean install, all mods except M4SS and NO MM and the NFS parts show in the VAB.

Clean install, all mods except M4SS with MM 2.5.1 and the NFS parts show in the VAB. (I have a log)

Clean install, all mods except M4SS with MM 2.5.3 and the NFS parts show in the VAB. (I have a log)

Clean install, all mods including M4SS with no MM and the NFS parts show in the VAB. (I have a log)

Clean install, all mods including M4SS with MM 2.5.1 and the NFS parts do not show in the VAB. (I have a log)

Remove MM and the NFS parts once again show in the VAB.

Clean install, all mods including M4SS v1.0 with MM 2.5.1 and the NFS parts show in the VAB. (I have a log)

If you would like to see the logs I just need a suggestion on how to make them available, though it seems rather easy to duplicate now.

MM is doing something when M4SS 1.1.1 is installed that keeps the NSF parts from showing in the VAB.

Take the MM .dll out and they show, put it back and they do not. Install v1.0 of M4SS and they show either way.

Thank you

Definitely going to need logs, because my test save always has those two (plus MM) installed. Pastebin or dropbox or google drive is good for log posting.

The little yellowjacket engine seems like a great idea, however it overheats the parts its attached too so fast that my planes last about 10 seconds. Do you have any tips for using it?

With the fix from the last update this should work better, however, it's intended to overheat relatively fast at full throttle.

Have you seen PorkJet's new parts to upgrade the Mk3 for 0.90? It's a 2.5m cargo bay. I was a bit afraid that it'd render this mod useless. But it's a completely different shape, and, more importantly, it has a rear cargo bay! the Mk3 looks more Space-Shuttle-y.

Yeah, I think there's room for both. Plus, I have way more cargo parts .

Just in case anyone else was having the same problem I was with certain parts not loading, rbray says it was an error with the particular ATM version and is fixed in the next one.

I suspect that any occurrences of that bug on old versions can be put down to error on my part.

Ah good. It was a very odd bug!

Any chance of craft files for the ships in the first post? Totally new to making spaceplanes and wouldn't mind seeing how some of them are put together since this seems like a rather nice parts pack

Those ones work pretty badly, I am not a great builder. That being said, I wouldn't mind throwing together a craft pack from things people have made.

Still having a few cargo bay issues...

Rover wheels seem to really want to fall through that bay. Struts can sort it out during launch, but the whole point of the ramp is to allow rovers to be recovered. Even KAS struts would not have saved this one; the rover fell through immediately after reconnecting to the docking port; there was no time to strut.

This is nothing I can change . Part to part collision on the same vessel doesn't occur. However, ferram has a mod, whose name escapes me, that reenables this. It might help

Considering I custom made my avatar, when I see it I wonderâ€â€did I post and not know about it? That's really distracting. Anyways, you probably don't want to maintain two versions of the mod but might I suggest a 'firespitter-enabled' version? When you have parts that are all the same size, you can use firespitter to swap the model and the tank contents. It allows you to basically condense, at minimum, your LF, LFO, Mono and Structural parts into a single piece that you can then select for yourself without of clogging up the parts catalog. A practical example is instead of finding the 3m LFO, you just pick the 3m fuselage and change it to LFO.

You're right, I don't . I also really don't want dependencies with this project if I can avoid it at all. Of course, maybe another MM patch when I have a moment to write it and test it (someone actually made one already for the dev version of the mod).

I took the liberty and edited the Patches\MkIVCLS.cfg to be more useable. Please feel free to use it.

I don't know if you agree with the cargobay being passable (I think it makes sense though, especially if you have manned ships docked in the bay), but the docking nose should definitely be passable in my opinion.

Thanks, I will take that into account. The docking cone should certainly be passable.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Nertea

[Sean Mirrsen]

DR wouldn't really help here without making the mod dependant on it, which I don't like. I heard lo-fi had a plugin where the animation's progress could be set via a tweakable bar though. It sounds almost like what this needs, I may look into it at some point.

I actually had a thought on that front. Could you make a thin hollow "slice" of Mk4 fuselage, that's passable, but is also a dockport? Besides various craft recombination options, it would allow to install a DR hinge between two dockports at the top, and then you'd have a DR-powered openable nose, without outright reliance on DR.

[LitaAlto]

This is my buggiest mod ever

I'd rather have a buggy Nertea mod than no Nertea mod. Given how hard I was on myself over MM cfgs on a far less ambitious project, I can relate, but really, I love your work and hope you don't let yourself get too disheartened over this.

That said, I'm really looking forward to seeing if I can get my first spaceplane ever--made from these parts--into orbit. I'm struggling with wheels and eventually had to use anti-grav repulsors from Kerbal Foundries, but I got it up to over 20 km before jet flareout made me revert the launch. Still very promising! Quite earnestly, thank you!

[Ippo]

Hi Nertea, this parts are awesome! I'd like to include them in the CKAN: if you have a couple of minutes to check that I have listed the dependencies correctly in the metadata, it would be awesome

[Nertea]

Hi Nertea, this parts are awesome! I'd like to include them in the CKAN: if you have a couple of minutes to check that I have listed the dependencies correctly in the metadata, it would be awesome

Yeah that looks good. I'm not sure how that "requires NFProps" thing goes, as NFProps isn't a mod (yet....). Otherwise looks fine.

I actually had a thought on that front. Could you make a thin hollow "slice" of Mk4 fuselage, that's passable, but is also a dockport? Besides various craft recombination options, it would allow to install a DR hinge between two dockports at the top, and then you'd have a DR-powered openable nose, without outright reliance on DR.

I will probably make a docking port slice eventually... not sure when or what exactly it'll look like, but I'll take that idea into account when I do.

I'd rather have a buggy Nertea mod than no Nertea mod. Given how hard I was on myself over MM cfgs on a far less ambitious project, I can relate, but really, I love your work and hope you don't let yourself get too disheartened over this.

That said, I'm really looking forward to seeing if I can get my first spaceplane ever--made from these parts--into orbit. I'm struggling with wheels and eventually had to use anti-grav repulsors from Kerbal Foundries, but I got it up to over 20 km before jet flareout made me revert the launch. Still very promising! Quite earnestly, thank you!

Oh don't worry about that. It's gratifying that 90% of the problems are only mod interop things. The main things seem to work ok .

[ozraven]

Rover wheels seem to really want to fall through that bay. Struts can sort it out during launch, but the whole point of the ramp is to allow rovers to be recovered. Even KAS struts would not have saved this one; the rover fell through immediately after reconnecting to the docking port; there was no time to strut.

This is nothing I can change . Part to part collision on the same vessel doesn't occur. However, ferram has a mod, whose name escapes me, that reenables this. It might help

This is how KSP works - once docked, the rover becomes part of the carrier vehicle, and parts on the same vehicle no longer collide with each other. Indeed, ferram4's The Colliders Strike Back may resolve this problem in a more natural way. However, I've not used this myself.

I've taken to using marce's ActiveStruts, and specifically, ZodiusInfuser's Model Rework variant. (See the IR Rework - Struts (Pre-release) section for a direct link to these parts.) They allow you to park a rover in the bay, link up a strut or two (non-docking!) which will hold the rover in place well enough for flight. Further, once strutted in place, you could "dock" the rover to the plane using a KAS winch and radial port, via EVA, and the ActiveStruts should keep the vehicle from falling through. (ActiveStruts have several modes, some of which work between two separate vessels, unlike stock struts.)

Alternatively, earlier in this thread is Logan.Darklighter's implementation of KAS winches to secure some cargo. Essentially, I believe, the idea is to use winches to suspend the cargo undocked, then use one winch to dock the cargo/rover. At that point, normal KAS struts can be placed to steady the payload and the undocked winches can be detached. (KAS struts do not provide a "docked" connection and like stock struts, are only possible between two parts on the same vessel.)

[Logan.Darklighter]

Alternatively, earlier in this thread is Logan.Darklighter's implementation of KAS winches to secure some cargo. Essentially, I believe, the idea is to use winches to suspend the cargo undocked, then use one winch to dock the cargo/rover. At that point, normal KAS struts can be placed to steady the payload and the undocked winches can be detached. (KAS struts do not provide a "docked" connection and like stock struts, are only possible between two parts on the same vessel.)

Almost but not quite correct. The order is slightly off. And you leave the winches attached during transport and only undock/release them when you're ready to disembark the rover.

Here's a simpler checklist to follow:

1) Attach Radial Attachment Points (what the winch cable attaches to) to the vehicle. (minimum of 4 to cover the 4 corners)

2) Plug in the winch heads to the RAPs. ATTACH AS "UNDOCKED". NOT "DOCKED".

3) Winch the rover up into place. Hopefully the end result raises the rover's wheels completely off the cargo bay floor so they're not touching/intersecting.

4) Place Strut points. Then link Struts.

5) Choose one winch point and switch it from UNDOCKED to DOCKED. (Refer to step 2 above).

For disembarkation of the rover, the checklist is generally reversed:

1) Change your designated winch head from DOCKED to UNDOCKED. Now the rover is a separate craft again and when released, will not fall through the cargo bay floor.

2) Un-link the struts. Stow them in the KAS Storage box (you DID include 1 or 2 of those in the plane, right?)

3) Lower the rover to the cargo bay floor by extending the winches (DON'T just "release" them! A heavy rover might still cause damage to itself (usually breaking the wheels) or could bounce and damage some other part of itself or the plane.)

4) Unplug the winch heads from the Radial Attachment points.

5) Then un-attach the radial attachment heads from the rover and stow them.

With the rover resting on it's own wheels in the cargo bay and hopefully nothing obstructing it (like a Radial Attachment head getting hung up on the side or the door) you can now carefully drive it down the ramp and off the plane.

Notes:

- You do NOT release the winches once retracted upwards. Leave them attached until you get to your destination.

- If, when your rover is winched upwards, you see the attachment points begin to pull away from the vehicle, then that means they're being overstressed by the weight of the vehicle and you need to use more winches to lift it. Use as many as you need. I've used as many as 12 with 6 to a side.

- The KAS Struts are not as robust as regular struts. They have more "stretch" to them. That's why you want to keep all the winches attached. The struts by themselves will NOT hold a vehicle in place against some of the maneuvers that an SSTO (or any cargo plane) will need to do. Neither will the winches. But the combination of the two is golden.

- Mk 4 Cargo bay sections are lovely for KAS winches because of the "Ledge" running along both sides above the walls of the cargo bay but before the top doors. It's the perfect spot to put the winches - up high and with the maximum possible distance to pull a cargo upwards.

- Related to the above point - I recommend you place the KAS Radial Attachment Heads as LOW on the Rover as you can, but keep them all LEVEL with each other as much as possible.

- Also - with multiple winches - it's incredibly useful to have these 2 KAS Winch functions on their own Action Groups: Extend and Retract. And double and triple-check if necessary to make sure that all the winches and their up and down movement are properly on those 2 action groups. One button push to retract ALL the winches on a vehicle is SO much easier than doing it piecemeal one by one!

(An alternate 3rd action group would be "Disable Key Command" on the KAS winches. Some of us use non-standard keyboard layouts that use the same keys as KAS in places. Really handy to have that and to NOT have the winches extending/retracting when I'm trying to maneuver the damn plane!!)

[Starbuckminsterfullerton]

I will probably make a docking port slice eventually... not sure when or what exactly it'll look like, but I'll take that idea into account when I do.

I would suggest a similar approach to the WIP inline cockpit you've got; it has a crew passthrough but is hollow with room underneath for monoprop and friends. Just replace the cockpit with a docking port. As if it were that easy...

Orrr... since we already have a good 1m port nose option, what if a 2m port extended from the bottom of, say, a cargo bay. the form factor is flat down there, and having 2m docking would be a unique advantage to the mkIV system.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Starbuckminsterfullerton

[Ippo]

Yeah that looks good. I'm not sure how that "requires NFProps" thing goes, as NFProps isn't a mod (yet....). Otherwise looks fine.

Powered by magic

No actually NearFutureProps is extracted from the station parts mod at the moment. If you ever felt like to make a separate release for that, of course we'd appreciate it a lot, but you don't need to if you don't want, we are good as it is

[Science-Recon]

I'm not trying to speak for Squad, Nertea, or any other modders out there, but this Mark IV is a mod. Saying that stock parts should fall in line with the naming convention of a mod is kinda...off (for lack of a better word).

The next comment is sarcasm from one mildly OCD person to another :

You annotated Mk IV as "Mk Iv"...shouldn't roman numerals be "IV"? While we're quibbling here...

EDIT: Nertea might have named this mod MkIV instead of Mk4 to distinguish it from another Mk4 mod made by TouhouTorpedo a while back that was an extension of the legacy Mk3 body shape. TT's Mk4 has since been depreciated, however.

I didn't mean squad should fix it, I wondered if it was possible for the mod to fix it, however Roman numerals would work anyway. (We do have the Kerbal-X) as for the Mk IV, that was a typo.

[Vespene]

Soooooo... 0.90?

[blowfish]

Soooooo... 0.90?

It's a part mod with no plugin dependencies. The part categories should be updated but it should still work.

[Nertea]

I am seeing a couple of issues, among them the part categories. Will try to update in the next few days (few balance tweaks also).