[1.2.2] Realistic Progression Zero (RP-0) - Lightweight RealismOverhaul career v0.53 June 12

[Guest]

Ya, I placed all the Apollo stuff a good while back. Wasn't sure where to put those (options were far more limited when I added Apollo) so I just went with what engine science node we had for the late 1960's science tier. If anyone has a better suggestions for the new science nodes we have today, I'd be happy to move them (keeping in same late '60 tiers).

Humm, Landing or ,even more fitting, Advanced Flight control would seem to be a fine spot

- - - Updated - - -

Going over parts to prune out, i think making a "non-RP0" prune list might be in order. Anyone willing to help me get started on this?

[Hitokiri]

Is this valid for RP-0? https://github.com/NathanKell/RealSolarSystem/wiki/InSpaceHigh-and-InSpaceLow

I'm now 515km above Venus (just passing) and all the experiments are saying "space high over Venus"...

[federicoaa]

Hi. The 2 LEO mission recently added requires 14 days max of orbit duration, but it has to be done while focusing the craft, any change of focus/scene will reset the counter.

Looking at the config file for the contract:

Duration 1 -> 1 to 4 days

Duration 2 -> 3 to 10 days

I suggest reducing the max duration to something that does not require leaving the game running for 10 minutes to complete the contract.

Cheers

Edited September 30, 2015 by federicoaa

[NathanKell]

VesselGroup should persist. That's weird.

[kendoka15]

Hello. I was wondering, are there no reaction wheels supported by RP-0 and is this by design?

[Laie]

from the Realism Overhaul Wiki:

Myth: Reaction wheels are magical all-powerful devices, you can turn a spacecraft on a dime with them.

Fact: In fact, attitude on spacecraft is often handled through the use of gimbaled thrust and reaction control thrusters. Reaction wheels have limited ability to modify the attitude of a spacecraft, especially under thrust, and can only apply torque for so long since doing so spins them up. Eventually they have to be "spun down" with RCS. They are used for very fine, low-torque applications, like keeping ISS oriented correctly with respect to Earth or keeping a telescope oriented just so.

[Hattivat]

Plus, in real life reaction wheels only came into use in space-shuttle-era, and RP-0 for late-stage career is as of yet pretty far from being fully polished.

[ptr421]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but the Delta avionics package allows vessel to be controlled even without connection. Orientation, burns, experiments, everything. Remote tech just says "Local control". As soon as it's staged away it goes back to usual time delay/no connection.

Edited October 1, 2015 by ptr421

[NathanKell]

ptr421: Guess who forgot to add an SPU! I did!

[kendoka15]

@Laie:

I am aware of this, but RO still includes them. (My geosynchronous comsat network was such a pain to position since the rcs kept messing with the period )

@Hattivat:

I see

Thanks for the info

Edited October 1, 2015 by kendoka15

[chrisl]

Laie- Well that's interesting because that is clearly not how it worked for me. Their given range is 4Mm. When talking to ground stations they work out to about 28,000km, a seven fold increase. I watched for the switch fairly closely because I was hoping to transmit high orbit data on my way to the moon. I'd say maybe it was a probe core with a 300km range expanded 100 fold to 30,000km except I know those don't work for me above 600km or so. Have I messed up and missed something obvious again? Nathan can you confirm the ground station boost is 100x?

Are you sure it was a distance issue and not an LOS issue? I've sent probes to the moon with nothing more than the 6Mm agena antenna and they had no problems communicating back. At least where range was concerned. The problem I usually ran into was not having LOS to a comm station on earth. I eventually resolve that by setting up a six satellite relay at 2500km equatorial orbit. The relay sats each have two of the small dishes (pointing to the satellite before and after it) and a single 4Mm Omni antennae. That relay was all I need to resolve about 98% of my comm issues.

As for dishes, I've been using the K7 for all my inner planet probes and the K14 for my out planet launches (out to Saturn so far) without any issues.

EDIT: Oh. One thing I have come across, though I'm guessing it's probably a stock issue. I recently set up a new 4-satellite DSN with the intention of doubling the default 500Gm DSN (this was before the update, of course). Each satellite consists of a single K14 dish and 16 Communotron-16 Omni antennas (I messed up the math so they should have either 128Mm or 40Mm range depending on exactly how the cap works). Each satellite launched perfectly. Each got into it's geostationary orbit just fine. Each turned on just fine as well. The trouble is, once I saved and reloaded any of the satellites, they shake themselves to pieces. After a lot of trial and error, what I found was that the two sets of 8 Communotron-16 antenna which are mounted around a "Cubic Octagonal Strut Mk III" bounce off each other when the antenna are extended. There's no problem when the antenna are retracted, hence why I didn't spot the problem until the satellite's had reached orbit. And the problem doesn't happen when you initially activate the antenna. It's only when the antenna are all active AND you load the satellite in orbit (either by reloading a quicksave or focusing on the satellite from KSC or another satellite). Like I said, I think this is probably a stock issue but wanted to warn people trying to use multiple Omni antenna to make sure they have plenty of space around each other.

Edited October 1, 2015 by chrisl

[chrisl]

Hmm Magellan should be located in Unmanned tech not Orbital rocketry, do you have the latest RP-0 release? They might be listed under Non-RP0 since they shouldn't be located in that node. They *should* be listed in the correct locations if you have the latest version of RP-0. The tree.cfg file in the most recent RP-0 release is confirmed to have the changes present.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Been out of town on business. Anyway, I just did a complete reinstall of RP-0. When I look in the R&D building, I find the Magellan probe (along with several others like Aqua, Aura, Terra, Galileo, Dawn, Deep Impact, etc) in "Basic Orbital Rocketry". They are all listed as "Owned" so I should have access to them in the VAB. But when I switch to the VAB, I can't find most of these probes anywhere. I'd expect them to be on the default "Command and Crew" tab but they aren't. And I can't seem to find them in any of the other tabs.

[Jovus]

Going through trying RP-0 out for the first time, and I've noticed that my research times are pretty extreme. (Over 1200 days for Early Orbital Rocketry, for example.) Is this completely intentional? Is there some way to increase research speed that I've just plain missed? Using KCT in a stock install allows you to increase research speed on the Upgrades tab, but that doesn't seem to be the case in RP-0.

Thanks!

[chrisl]

Going through trying RP-0 out for the first time, and I've noticed that my research times are pretty extreme. (Over 1200 days for Early Orbital Rocketry, for example.) Is this completely intentional? Is there some way to increase research speed that I've just plain missed? Using KCT in a stock install allows you to increase research speed on the Upgrades tab, but that doesn't seem to be the case in RP-0.

Thanks!

Spending points in Tech will decrease the research times but it's significantly less than in stock. I've got the level 2 R&D facility, have spent 121 upgrade points (some of which did go to the VAB but most of which went to tech) and I'm still only at 0.289 sci/day. That said, there is about a 5 year difference between the "Start" tech node and "Early Orbital Rocketry" node so 1200 days (3.28 years) isn't really all that outrageous.

[Jovus]

Just found what you were talking about; I was thinking the Development Upgrade under R&D was gaining new science per year rather than increasing research rate. Thanks!

[MatterBeam]

Hello. I have found several misplaced parts in the tech tree, which I think comes from Community Tech tree. Please note, I use parts from Roverdude's MKS/OKS, Near Future Propulsion and Electrics, and the Real Fuels config for Stock Engines mod.

Anyhow here are the fixes I'd like implemented, up to 300 science:

Ctt for rp-0

Nk21 veles from supersonic flight to to refined rocketry

Thrust plate multi from start to basic construction

Procedural supercritical from start to composites

Goresat from early construction to improved instrumentation

Film return camera from early construction to improved instrumentation

Circular intake from start to supersonic flight

Remove able avionics package duplicates

Move Mainsail to advanced rocketry

Move tail connector B to start

Move radiator panel small to heat management systems

Move realchute radial chute from start to survivability

Move er7500 computer flight unit from start to improved instrumentation

Move skipper from early hydrolox to heavy orbital rocketry

Move tt-70 radial decoupler from mature orbital rocketry to general construction

Remove f-1 from mature orbital

Move heatshields from general construction to second gen capsules

Remove thermal control system from electrics

Remove heatshield from landing

Remove small landing gear from landing

Move surveyor core from landing to flight control

Move 24-77 twitch into mature orbital

Move mk-55 thud into advanced landing

Move 48-7s spark into mature orbital

Remove lv-t30 reliant from improved staged combustion

Add procedural solids upgrades to mature solids and large segmented solids

Move uks octagonal landing from advanced construction to advanced landing

Move scanomatic soil sample from advanced construction to short term habitation

Move guidance unit,1m from advanced flight control to flight control

Move fl-a30 adaptor from advanced flight control to general construction

Move thermal control system medium from imprved electrics to advanced heat management

Remove actuators requirement from storage technology, specialised construction

Remove procedural stack decoupler from advanced staged combustion

Move service bay 2m from advanced staged combustion to basic construction

Move cc-r2 connector port from improved solids to advanced construction

Remove fairing base and ring from specialised construction

Remove fairing shells from specialised construction

Move asteroid sounding from actuators to improved instrumentation

Remove f100-pw-229 turbofan from mature supersonic flight

Move airbrakes from effective spaceplanes to supersonic flight

Move delta avionics from specialised control to stability/early probes

Move uks training akademy from advanced exploration to colonization

Remove goresat from precision engineering

Add procedural solids upgrade to larger solids

Remove ilc-18k container from larger solids

Move winch rw-50 from advanced metalworks to actuators

Move micro goo containment pods from composites to precision engineering

Move exokerbal core drill from science tech to advanced exploration

Remove surveyor core from unmanned tech

Move tac-ls air filter from electronics to recycling

Move thermal control system large from high-power electrics to specialized radiators

excuse the specialized/specialised thing. My ipad's from the UK.

[BevoLJ]

Please note, I use parts from Roverdude's MKS/OKS, Near Future Propulsion and Electrics, and the Real Fuels config for Stock Engines mod.

Hello,

MKS, and Near Future are not supported by Real Progression Zero. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, Near Future is supported by Realism Overhaul but Realism Overhaul is for sandbox mode, not career mode. Real Progression Zero is for Career mode.

MKS (and all of Rover Dudes Mods) are amazing and tons of fun. However I can never imagine them ever being supported by any Realism type modpack.

Here are the supported mods currently (Taken from first post in thread):

(Note, Realism Overhaul requirement is only for the REQUIRED mods. That should probably also say RECOMENDED mods too. However the only RO SUGGESTED mods supported are those listed in this list below)

Requirements:

- Realism Overhaul and all its required mods

- Community Tech Tree

- Lack's SXT (although only the engines have RO configs as of yet)

- Ven's Stock Part Revamp

- Contract Configurator

- Custom Barn Kit

- Deadly Reentry

Recommended:

- Procedural Fairings

- Procedural Parts

- B9 Procedural Wings

- Kerbal Construction Time

- Taerobee

Supported

- Raidernick's US Probes

In Progress

- DMagic's Orbital Science

- Universal Storage

- FASA

- Raidernick's Soviet probes and rockets

Note that more effort has gone into balancing earlier nodes than later nodes. Your feedback and assistance in balancing all nodes is appreciated!

Edited October 2, 2015 by BevoLJ

[MatterBeam]

Hello,

MKS, and Near Future are not supported by Real Progression Zero. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, Near Future is supported by Realism Overhaul but Realism Overhaul is for sandbox mode, not career mode. Real Progression Zero is for Career mode.

MKS (and all of Rover Dudes Mods) are amazing and tons of fun. However I can never imagine them ever being supported by any Realism type modpack.

Here are the supported mods currently (Taken from first post in thread):

(Note, Realism Overhaul requirement is only for the REQUIRED mods. That should probably also say RECOMENDED mods too. However the only RO SUGGESTED mods supported are those listed in this list below)

Hi Bevol! I'm subscribed to your channel!

After reaching and landing on various planets, I like having the option to actually do something once I'm there, without having to give up on Realism Overhaul.

What is needed:

-Put MKS/OKS in their correct positions

-Give mass and cost multipliers to appropriate parts

-Give MKS/OKS refineries the option to produce Real Fuels from 'Ore'. That is all.

[winged]

Here are the supported mods currently (Taken from first post in thread):

Infernal Robotics and SCAN-SAT are also supported.

AIES is partially supported.

There should be an info about those mods in opening post.

Also more than 90% of FASA parts are supported so it's more like "fully supported" than "work in progress".

Edited October 2, 2015 by winged

[chrisl]

Hi. The 2 LEO mission recently added requires 14 days max of orbit duration, but it has to be done while focusing the craft, any change of focus/scene will reset the counter.

Looking at the config file for the contract:

Duration 1 -> 1 to 4 days

Duration 2 -> 3 to 10 days

I suggest reducing the max duration to something that does not require leaving the game running for 10 minutes to complete the contract.

Cheers

VesselGroup should persist. That's weird.

I have noticed a couple occasions where the persistency had been lost but that was even happening with the 1/LEO mission. Usually I don't have any problems switching to KSC so I can advance time to complete the mission. My main problem is that the CO2 scrubber, O2 generator and Fuel Cell from TACLS don't produce anything (though they consume just fine) when you're not focused on the ship so I'm always running out of power and O2. But that's not a RP-0 issue.

EDIT: Ok. I can verify this is happening but it's only on the 2nd timer. The first timer's persistency works just fine but the 2nd's doesn't work at all. In fact, if you save and reload, the timer resets itself. I'm not sure what the issue is. If it's something in the way I setup the 2/LEO mission or just the way duration gets tracked and stored.

Edited October 2, 2015 by chrisl

[NathanKell]

Krakenfour: It's...really not how RO works, to slap a size and mass multiplier on a part and call it done, except in very rare (simple structural part) instances. It is certainly not how RO works to do that to something as complex as colonization parts, which will need a truly massive overhaul.

MKS/OKS/Etc come from a completely different approach to playing KSP. It's to the credit of KSP that it allows such diverse play styles as the UKS/"lolsokerbal" school, and the RO "hard nosed realism" school, but those play styles really don't mix.

RO should certainly support colonization, and assuming there are volunteers with sufficient interest and time, we will. But sacrificing the spirit and the very purpose of RO just so we can have colonization sooner is not the solution.

As to the tree suggestions you're making, I confess myself quite confused. First, it seems you might not even be using Realism Overhaul for engine configs, which means of course things will be in the wrong nodes for you. That said, the reason parts have been placed in nodes is because, well, that's when they were developed. For example, the film return camera is modeled on the cameras in the CORONA program (and the first Zenit launches); they absolutely came before the early Ranger and Mariner shots (which is what Improved Instrumentation represents).

EDIT: chrisl: That definitely seems like an issue to bring up with nightingale then!

[MatterBeam]

Krakenfour: It's...really not how RO works, to slap a size and mass multiplier on a part and call it done, except in very rare (simple structural part) instances. It is certainly not how RO works to do that to something as complex as colonization parts, which will need a truly massive overhaul.

MKS/OKS/Etc come from a completely different approach to playing KSP. It's to the credit of KSP that it allows such diverse play styles as the UKS/"lolsokerbal" school, and the RO "hard nosed realism" school, but those play styles really don't mix.

RO should certainly support colonization, and assuming there are volunteers with sufficient interest and time, we will. But sacrificing the spirit and the very purpose of RO just so we can have colonization sooner is not the solution.

As to the tree suggestions you're making, I confess myself quite confused. First, it seems you might not even be using Realism Overhaul for engine configs, which means of course things will be in the wrong nodes for you. That said, the reason parts have been placed in nodes is because, well, that's when they were developed. For example, the film return camera is modeled on the cameras in the CORONA program (and the first Zenit launches); they absolutely came before the early Ranger and Mariner shots (which is what Improved Instrumentation represents).

EDIT: chrisl: That definitely seems like an issue to bring up with nightingale then!

I see. I guess:

-Offworld colonization seems like a huge endeavor to get 'right'. I can't begin to imagine the difficulties and work it would require to model all the chemical processes and the chemical reactors required to convert something like lunar regolith into rocket fuel in the game.

-I used the Stockalike Real Fuels config mod, I thought it would be supported in the tech tree, hence the misplaced, duplicate nodes.

-I already play without ullage and limited ignitions, since I felt that for my career playthrough, they bloated part count and lead to failures that hindered rather than enriched gameplay. I was wondering whether you'd be okay if I sketched up a Realism Overhaul 'Light', much like Antenna Range is to Remotetech.

[NathanKell]

Re: ISRU, there's the RealISRU thread in dev that might be worth a look.

Ah! Yeah, that would explain things. RP-0 is career mode for RO, so if you're changing things from what RO sets, it's not gonna work. :] However, that actually means that you don't really need RP-0 then, since much of the impetus for RP-0 is *because* RO changes engines all around so traditional tech trees won't work.

I do indeed think an RO-lite might work better for you; if SMURFF isn't what you're looking for (or ROMini, go here https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/blob/master/ROMini.cfg and click 'raw' to download) then absolutely feel free to fork/make whatever mod you like.

[MatterBeam]

Re: ISRU, there's the RealISRU thread in dev that might be worth a look.

Ah! Yeah, that would explain things. RP-0 is career mode for RO, so if you're changing things from what RO sets, it's not gonna work. :] However, that actually means that you don't really need RP-0 then, since much of the impetus for RP-0 is *because* RO changes engines all around so traditional tech trees won't work.

I do indeed think an RO-lite might work better for you; if SMURFF isn't what you're looking for (or ROMini, go here https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/blob/master/ROMini.cfg and click 'raw' to download) then absolutely feel free to fork/make whatever mod you like.

Thanks.

I like the contracts and KCT settings from RP-0.

I put more details in a reddit thread in r/RealSolarSystem

[NathanKell]

Also, Jovus, my guess is you're on KSP Time. Go to the Settings menu (from the main menu) and toggle to Earth Time.