N00b Friendiness and Career Mode.

[Whirligig Girl]

Maxmaps and other devs have stated several times that KSP's Career Mode is meant to guide new players through the game. The Tech Tree limits the amount of parts to what a player can handle, they unlock parts as they need them and are thus not overloaded with a plethora of parts all at once. And the Tech Tree does this wonderfully. Additionally, as a veteran player I very much enjoy the difficulty of the non-upgraded facilities. But they're not quite integrated well for a new player.

Here's a few things which might improve the game for n00bs, without getting in the way of veterans.

-No Kerbal Rendezvous contracts until after the tracking station can do targeting and maneuver nodes. While it is possible to rendezvous blind, (I almost did it myself yesterday while preparing for 0.90; Scott Manley did it in 0.14) N00bs can barely rendezvous with all the help in the world! This would certainly help to keep people from complaining about how they get up there if you can't even leave your command pod!

-New Contracts link directly to tutorials. The contracts could link to a tutorial mission that is relevant to the contract. An ARM would link to the ARM Tutorial save, an orbit contract would link to the Orbiting 101 tutorial, etc.

-Make Easy Mode default when Tutorials are turned on in settings. To keep veterans happy, tutorial linking could be turned off. THis would also make Normal Mode the default Career mode settings; where it would be Easy by default.

I believe Mr. Steven Mading here said it best:

In general most of these problems can be summarized by one simple statement:

The game shouldn't be presenting the hardest challenges a the START of the career, as that discourages new players. And yet that's exactly what it's doing.

Edited December 17, 2014 by GregroxMun

[Dunbaratu]

-No Kerbal Rendezvous contracts until after the tracking station can do targeting and maneuver nodes. While it is possible to rendezvous blind, (I almost did it myself yesterday while preparing for 0.90; Scott Manley did it in 0.14) N00bs can barely rendezvous with all the help in the world! This would certainly help to keep people from complaining about how they get up there if you can't even leave your command pod!

Yes, a thousand times Yes.

I just got done with such a mission without the aid of the tracking center (let's face it you're not going to be spending 200,000 funds on that when you get your first rescue contract immediately after your very first successful orbit - you won't have nearly enough money for a working tracking center yet).

If I hadn't been a veteran player there's no WAY I'd be able to pull that mission off. Even if I was a rocket engineer at NASA I couldn't have done it if I was a newb to this game (because all the math knowledge in the world for how you perform a rendezvous is no use without being able to see the numbers that stock KSP won't show you. The only way to get it right without knowing the numbers is seat-of-the-pants guesswork by having seen it so many times.)

For superhardcore hard mode for veterans, trying to pull off a rescue rendezvous without the aid of the inclination angle indicators, the ascending and descending node indicators, and (most importantly) without the closest-approach chevron indicators, is a LOT of fun.

But to subject newbies to that? No Way is that going to give them a good happy impression of the game. It's just going to be frustrating and they won't discover just how hard it really is until after they accepted the contract and will have to pay the penalty for failure.

Unless you're in hard mode, don't open up the rendezvous contracts until after the tracking center is able to provide the help.

In general, this is a concern of mine - it feels like the entire design of 0.90 is putting the difficulty curve utterly backward. The game is *hardest* when you start a new career, and gets *easier* as you go.

[CaptainKipard]

I'll give you the rescue mission, and links to tutorials.

[Dunbaratu]

I'll give you the rescue mission, and links to tutorials.

Tutorials that have to be re-written since all the existing ones assume you have a functioning tracking center, when you won't yet at this point of the game.

[hawk_za]

My bigger problem with this new career mode is the lack of stability control.

As it is a new player is struggling to understand pro-grade and retrograde let alone how the nav ball works, to ask them to get to space without sas is asking to much.

i managed but just, i counted you have to keep track of 8 vectors of directions and its constantly going off course.

Then also it dose not help that the rocket dose not stat with w pointing forward or aligned with your camera perspective also then not only do you have to remember to burn in the right direction while controlling this flopping dead octopus, but also remember why you went up there in the first place.

Just too much to ask a new player to do while still learning as it all happens to fast in my opinion oh and rule out planes as there is no way to land the flipping things as landing gear for them comes well after you have built up capability to get to MINMUS or even the MUN ....madness not to mention how hard it is to level up jeb so that he has sas ability's.

not to mention the further hamstringing from the lack of being able to gather science locally as all the Eva and sample ability's are locked and require rediculas amounts of funds to get unlocked.

just what i have noticed in my play-through ...i truly pray the devs take note of this feedback as i do think they have done allot of great things to but they are starting to make things EXTREMELY difficult for the new guy in career mode.

Edited December 16, 2014 by hawk_za
punctuation,and clarity

[Whirligig Girl]

For superhardcore hard mode for veterans, trying to pull off a rescue rendezvous without the aid of the inclination angle indicators, the ascending and descending node indicators, and (most importantly) without the closest-approach chevron indicators, is a LOT of fun.

I really had a lot of fun with eyeballing it, but I really recommend you bring waaaaaay more fuel than you would for a normal rendezvous. I ran out of fuel while I was practicing in 0.25, so I just CHEEEATS'd my way into infinite fuel to finish off the rendezvous. I came within 300 meters, but it was the dark side. I thought I was slow enough to timewarp to day side, but then I was suddenly 7 km away.

I was not able to finish the rendezvous.

[Whirligig Girl]

My bigger problem with this new career mode is the lack of stability control.

As it is a new player is struggling to understand pro-grade and retrograde let alone how the nav ball works, to ask them to get to space without sas is asking to much.

i managed but just, i counted you have to keep track of 8 vectors of directions and its constantly going off course.

Then also it dose not help that the rocket dose not stat with w pointing forward or aligned with your camera perspective also then not only do you have to remember to burn in the right direction while controlling this flopping dead octopus, but also remember why you went up there in the first place.

Just too much to ask a new player to do while still learning as it all happens to fast in my opinion oh and rule out planes as there is no way to land the flipping things as landing gear for them comes well after you have built up capability to get to MINMUS or even the MUN ....madness not to mention how hard it is to level up jeb so that he has sas ability's.

not to mention the further hamstringing from the lack of being able to gather science locally as all the Eva and sample ability's are locked and require rediculas amounts of funds to get unlocked.

just what i have noticed in my play-through ...i truly pray the devs take note of this feedback as i do think they have done allot of great things to but they are starting to make things EXTREMELY difficult for the new guy in career mode.

Luckily Jeb is the default Kerbal, so newbs will be able to use stabi--oh, what's that? Newbs kill Kerbals a lot? I forgot. Crap. Luckily there's a tip that says "You can't SAS without a pilot", so maybe they will try and find a pilot in the astronaut complex.

[Dunbaratu]

In general most of these problems can be summarized by one simple statement:

The game shouldn't be presenting the hardest challenges a the START of the career, as that discourages new players. And yet that's exactly what it's doing.

[Captain Sierra]

I think the game throwing the hardest challenges at you while you're at your most disadvantaged is great . . . . if you know what you're doing. I know what I'm doing. Everyone in this thread knows what they're doing. A new player . . . does not know what they're doing.

My current career save is set to normal (crew auto-hire and respawn were manually disabled) and it gets tough. I need tier 2 launch pad, VAB, and tracking station to go to the Mun. My minimum is about 25-30 tons on the pad, and about 60-70 parts for a full science run (I normally will fly 2). I need those two things and patched conics to do it. I'll freely admit that I am not confident enough in my skills to fly a blind transfer. I can do it without maneuver nodes, but by God I want my patched conics.

I think the other big issue is building prices. VAB, SPH, and R&D (and argument can be made for astronaut complex as well) are too expensive for new players. It gets too grindy to create meaningful progression without killing fun. In 0.25, I would have been to Minmus by now but in 0.90, I have yet to set foot on the Mun, and I'm a seasoned player.

And yes, the whole SAS idea 0.90 has needs work. Trying to wrestle a probe up there w/a stayputnik is an exercise in masochism. I understand the idea behind it and wanting to create roles for kerbals, but I'd rather the game take after Guns of Icarus Online in that regard.

i.e. all kerbals can provide the basic functions of every role (lvl 0/lvl 1), but can only level into one specialty.

I'd also like a damn SAS computer that isnt a probe core. I mean, I'm okay with it only providing basic SAS in career, but we seriously need something. At least one of these two options needs to be added because the current SAS situation makes a lot of mission types and a lot of options become, as previous, exercises in masochism.

[SkyRender]

I've been expressing much the same sentiments as this thread pretty much since 0.90 came out. The building upgrade prices in particular caught my attention, mainly because in the preview video of 0.90 the prices are 10 times lower than they are in the release version; that's something that kind of sticks out in my mind and suggests that the adjustment up was an 11th-hour decision. I like the idea of every Kerbal being able to perform at rank 1 of a given job, as I don't think the devs quite understand just how challenging it really is to control a spacecraft that does not have any form of stabilization.

[Captain Sierra]

. . . I don't think the devs quite understand just how challenging it really is to control a spacecraft that does not have any form of stabilization.

I had to wrestle a probe into a retrograde orbit, inclined, with an SMA almost that of the Mun, without SAS. Let the previous sentence serve as evidence of the accuracy of the quoted statement.

[hawk_za]

Luckily Jeb is the default Kerbal, so newbs will be able to use stabi--oh, what's that? Newbs kill Kerbals a lot? I forgot. Crap. Luckily there's a tip that says "You can't SAS without a pilot", so maybe they will try and find a pilot in the astronaut complex.

oh wait all kerbals start without sas capability's guess if i kill my kerbal there are consequences that's a good thing BUT NOT at the expense of hamstringing a new player

my advice

1) give level 0 pilots sas and nothing else then add all the other vectors as the pilot levels up and

finally as a last tier add auto launch pilot to get to a stable orbit at 75 km in kerbin as the later players does not want to be bothered with getting into orbit of Kerbin as they have done that they are more concerned with other challenges like getting to the Mun ....or Moho or the like getting into orbit is a done deal and easy

2) make landing gear avalibal for planes earlier so we can have a mechanic with witch to level up our pilots without needing heavy investment in the infrastructure

3) consider adding stock mapping for satellites ....(i am not gong to get into the reasons here as it is the wrong thread) but TRUST me it WILL help new players a hell of allot especially early game

4) add a delta v meter into the game (its no fun setting an objective and failing because you did not have the correct tools to get there.)

i have been around with this game since about .18 and i love it i truly do its a game i have wanted since i was a young lad and only want what is best for it and as a result i have put allot of thought into this but in the end it is just my opinion which i certainly hope the devs listen to.

Edited December 17, 2014 by hawk_za
spelling

[Dunbaratu]

Thankfully the devs have said that they know they need to work out the cost balances, but I really hope they pay attention to this problem when they do.

1: Newbies are given contracts that only veterans can pull off (nendezvous with the mun, but do it without a functioning encounter detector yet). Be smarter about the sorts of contracts you're handing out to people. You don't want new players being frightened away.

2: Veterans who want the challenge of Hard Mode are now forced to ONLY pay attention to Funds as the only one of the 3 resources that matters because Hard Mode nerfs Funds and makes everything more expensive, while NOT doing a similar thing to the same extent with the other 2 resources of science and rep. That unbalances the 3 relative to each other such that you'll earn plenty of rep and science without really trying, while being unable to use any of it because you still can't afford to upgrade the relevant buildings. You'll buy all the 90-cost and less techs just from the residual side-effect science you picked up while scrounging for funds long before you've earned the 2 million funds to update the science building.

[Fengist]

In general most of these problems can be summarized by one simple statement:

The game shouldn't be presenting the hardest challenges a the START of the career, as that discourages new players. And yet that's exactly what it's doing.

I agree completely. I'm no noob. I've been at this for a couple years now and have really not liked career mode. I decided that since .90 is out, it's time to try again.

I'm given a mission to lift an 18 ton SRB into a 90km orbit with a launch pad that hold 30 tons. Whut? Ok. i'm good but really???

I'm asked to perform visual surveys at 19,500m when all I have is a basic jet with no wheels for landing gear? Should noobs be building vtol's and having flameouts an hour and a half into the game???

I'm given missions to explore EVA various places on Kerbin and all I have are landing struts, no wheels, no ladders. Whut? Exactly how to I get back aboard with no ladder. Am I supposed to walk him to these places???

Put a satellite into polar orbit around the Mun. Whut??? When what I've got at this point, and again, I'm no noob, I could barely get a peanut to the Mun changing the entire attitude of a ship that's going to naturally go for an equatorial orbit into a polar orbit is well... a definite challenge.

And my biggest grief... what's with the totally pointless missions... Test a decoupler on an escape trajectory out of Kerbin. Whut??? Wouldn't it be cheaper if they just tossed in the dumpster? I mean Kerbals aren't known for brains but really???

And SRB testing... Ok, in my understanding the big benefit is that SRB's help you get off the launch pad quicker and easier. Why the hell am I lifting one to 30km before igniting it? I mean it sounds like fun. Get to 30km then fire off a an SRB with 315 thrust that you can't shut down...

And Jet engine testing when I don't even have air intakes? WHUT? I stuck it on a girder upside down atop my pod then lit it off when I got to the 'desired' altitude. Jee whiz, it flamed out... no intake air... imagine that.

Sorry, I'm going back to my sandbox. Entirely too many ill thought-out missions for me.

Oh and as for the rescue... Yea, I caught the guy pretty easily but forgot to empty out my pod before I launched. I made him grab the pod's ladder and deorbited his stupid butt right into the middle of the ocean. How the hell did he get up there anyway?

Oooh kay. I'm learning how to deal with stoopid missions. Test a skipper engine in orbit. I don't even have a fuel tank that large much less a stack separator... Ok, no problem.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Fengist

[MisterFister]

I'm given a mission to lift an 18 ton SRB into a 90km orbit with a launch pad that hold 30 tons. Whut? Ok. i'm good but really???

(...snip...)

http://www.datainterlock.com/Kerbal/stoopidcontracts.jpg

You can mount your SRB the same as you did for the Skipper. I suggest draining the solid fuel to reduce launch weight.

"Immersion"-wise, maybe testing the SRB at altitude is necessary to confirm ISP predictions? (In which case, launching with no fuel breaks this.) A jet engine with no intakes tests turbine bearing pressures? *shrug*

Oh, and with TweakScale, you can shrink your test payloads down pretty decently. I once grabbed no fewer than give "test at altitude" contracts. I reverse-stacked them on the nose of my pod like you did with the Skipper, with no stack separators between them. Just stacked. Adjusted staging so I could activate them in sequence at the appropriate altitude checkpoints. Recovered them. Something like 100 science (from a paid flight test mission!) and 278,000 funds. v0.24.2.

[Flef]

In general most of these problems can be summarized by one simple statement:

The game shouldn't be presenting the hardest challenges a the START of the career, as that discourages new players. And yet that's exactly what it's doing.

I think also that most contracts objectives should be revamped.

Actually I do not find fun to test a MK16 parachute between 16000 and 18000m of alti. and between 230m/s and 500m/s. I don't even see the point of bothering the player with that.

and by overall I don' t find 'em in "the KSP spirit".

[thereaverofdarkness]

The altitude and speed requirements are way too strict. A lot of contracts should have one or the other, not both, and they should offer a much wider window. What if your contract was to test the separatron in atmosphere at 1200m/s - 2000m/s? That could be fun if not something you're bound to do without the contract. Do it at any altitude you want! And some contracts pay almost nothing at all. Their best attribute may be reputation, but they usually don't give much of that. It doesn't make much sense being paid in advance to test a part, but are only given a fraction of the funds that the part costs, and on a contract not even worth your time. And the star rating seems to have little to do with how high the contract really is. I get three star junk contracts that don't even pay for the test part let alone the fuel, and one-star contracts that unlock more science than I get during their completion with a full suite of instruments.

I think part test contracts should often give you free parts instead of money in advance--once you have used up the parts on failed flights, you're out of luck if the parts are experimental because there aren't any more. That plugs the 'use experimental part indefinitely' exploit while also giving players a sense of danger in trying to complete the contract.

It takes far too little reputation for certain contracts to become available. Seems every game, once I demonstrate to the whole of Kerbin that attaining orbit is possible, no sooner have I returned to base than I receive a report that some Kerbal is stuck in EVA, and I don't even have EVA capability yet (0.90). It should be awhile before other space programs start leaving crew behind.

[JimmyAgent007]

For early survey missions, id just deorbit my pod and aim for the location. Report on the way down usually worked rather well. Now I have planes though so I can fly to them. What i found to be odd was being told to test a jet engine, they provide an engine, but not having any air intakes. Sure its doable but really, some things should be looked at. Things will get balanced as time goes on so for now I'm just going to enjoy the odd missions.

[Frank327]

Maybe it is an idea for easy mode to start with tracking station + launch pad at level 2 and have stability control always on regardless of the kerbal/command unit? It would ease players into the game a lot better. Then they'd only need to upgrade the VAB and recruitment centre to start doing mun missions, which shouldn't be too expensive on easy. Right now I agree with most people that the challenges in the early game are more difficult than in the late game. Late game the money you can earn vs. the cost of the spacecraft stops being 2/1 and starts being more like 5/1. And that's for a single contract.

But aside from that, the tutorials need to be looked at again.