Career too hard?

[rcp27]

I'm working my way through a career mode on "normal" without mods, and while I am enjoying things, to me there is one obvious problem with the early game. If I have a contract to survey a location on Keratin at low altitude or landed, or test a part in flight, what I want to do for those contracts is to build a plane to do it. It was even in the launch video from Squad: building a plane to do a survey contract.

Consider what I can do with rockets in the early game: I can put Jeb on the Mun or Minmus and bring him home once I have: 1.25 m fuel tanks, LV-T45 and LV909 engines, TR-18A stack decoupler, TT-38K radial decoupler and RT10 SRBs, and basic Landing Struts. All of these are available within level 3 of the tech tree, and can be unlocked with 58 science points.

If I want to build a really basic jet that can take of from the KSC, land at the island runway, and then return, I need a basic jet engine and liquid fuel tank, some kind of air intake, a Mk1 cockpit, some wings and control surfaces and the landing gear bay. To get these parts means unlocking two different tier 5 science nodes (Aerodynamics for the jet engine and Landing for the gear bay), needing a minimum of 308 science points.

The point is, I see these "visual survey of Kerbin" contracts, and want to build a plane to fly those missions. By the time I can actually set about building that plane, I am into the category of putting satellites in a specific orbit around the Mun and planting a flag on the Mun type contracts, and the visual survey of Kerbin contracts just feel pointless.

Basically the game is set up to be a "build rockets and go to space" game, but as it is evolving into a "space program tycoon" type game, you come to realise that the first "A" in NASA (aerospace) is actually an important part of running a space program. Jets are't just "now we've made rockets work, let's make spaceplanes too", they are an integral part in the R&D process for developing the technology and techniques to go to space, and I think the tech tree needs to reflect this.

[spinomonkey]

I've played 700+ hours of Kerbal, but I'd agree Normal mode is a touch too hard. I actually restarted on easy then customized the settings to make it harder. The problem is simple in my mind: the payouts are too low for the monumental tasks required- tasks that aren't even involving going to the Mun or any other planet, but simply: upgrade a building. The buildings themselves don't seem to be worth the upgrades either, I wouldn't mind the massive payouts if I was really making some serious gains. But when I'm offered 2-3 new abilities, but I only really care about 1 of them, that price tag suddenly seems a bit steep.

I realize Squad may have wanted the building upgrades to be subtle, like the character upgrades- but imo you're not getting enough bang for your buck.

My other issue is with space planes. I agree with others that have stated that .90 really encourages their use- but I would also say it's hard to build one right out of the gate. I'm not suggesting we should be supplied with everything, but for instance: if I don't have landing gear, I'm not building a plane. So it doesn't matter that I have the cockpit, or even some control surfaces if I don't get landing gear until mid-way through the tech tree. I would take it a step further and even suggest offering low tech rover tires would also be a great addition for those pesky contacts that require to investigate multiple areas.

All in all: Either the structures need better rewards, or need their costs cut. Essential Rover/Space Plane parts should at least make an appearance in low tech levels.

[nholzric]

...The point is, I see these "visual survey of Kerbin" contracts, and want to build a plane to fly those missions. By the time I can actually set about building that plane, I am into the category of putting satellites in a specific orbit...

I'm still really early in the career mode - I've unlocked probably 5 or 6 tech nodes and upgraded two buildings - but last night I completed three or four contracts with a plane. It launched straight up from the launch pad with a decoupler balanced on some scaffolding. No landing gear of course, it lands by deploying two parachutes, getting whipped upright and landing on it's tail (I haven't figured out how to prevent the engine from exploding yet without surrounding it in ugliness).

So yeah, you can build planes without landing gear.

But you have a point, similar to how probes used to be hidden high up in the tech tree but are now available fairly early, I expect landing gear may get shuffled around. Especially because right now there is only one landing gear option (besides rover wheels, I haven't seen anyone try that yet..) and they are a little chintzy for the biggest part sizes now. Maybe there will be a lesser landing gear added for a low tech level along with bigger gear for the space shuttle style parts.

[thyriel]

Been playing around half the day seeing if stock game is really that unbalanced on normal settings in career (played it until manned mun landing, tier 5 tech).

Overall it seems more or less balanced to me, but i guess new players will have an incredible hard time if they start with normal career mode.

There's quite a lot possible situations that could end up with being unable to progress, especially when you're not familiar with the contracts and then fill your 2 contract limit with stuff you just can't do (like rescue kerbal without VAB update, test this or that and not realizing it could be a bit hard lifting that BACC solid into orbit or stuff like that).

Only thing i find unbalanced is the VAB / SPH upgrade levels. 255 Parts on the first upgrade is way too much. I don't think i ever built such a big ship, they already start to lagg with that much parts. It's very interesting currently designing ships for non upgraded launchpad / VAB and see how far they can come, so it would be great having a similar thing after the first upgrade that makes it hard to design ships for certain goals. Probably something like 100 Parts max after first upgrade or so

[Godot]

I like it the way it is.

I agree that 30 parts (and the size limitation of the launch pad) most probably don´t get you to Mun ...

but that just means that it would be a good idea to first do contracts in Kerbins SOI, in order to get enough money to upgrade VAB and Launchpad,

before rying to get to Mun

[255]

Has anyone managed the polar (and other specific orbit) missions without maneuver nodes? I don't see how those are possible without tons of extra fuel and a LOT of maneuvers to tweak things. I sure never get them the first try.

You are supposed to launch directly with the correct inclination. Only then, in very low orbit, you start to get the orbit bigger. Changing the inclination when your orbit is already big is a pain and it's the wrong way to do it.

[thyriel]

You are supposed to launch directly with the correct inclination. Only then, in very low orbit, you start to get the orbit bigger. Changing the inclination when your orbit is already big is a pain and it's the wrong way to do it.

Correct I tested that some days ago. A direct western (180°) inclination launch takes exactly 176 more deltaV then an eastern (0°) launch. Changing inclination in orbit is depending on what your Ap and Pe are.

With Ap being very highand Pe being as low as possible is the lowest delta-V to change inclination in orbit. Takes around 700 deltaV from an apoapsis at geosync. (2878km), but it's getting incredible high when you're in LKO orbit.

[rkman]

I like it the way it is.

I agree that 30 parts (and the size limitation of the launch pad) most probably don´t get you to Mun ...

but that just means that it would be a good idea to first do contracts in Kerbins SOI, in order to get enough money to upgrade VAB and Launchpad,

before rying to get to Mun

The game gives no information by which an inexperienced player can determine that a contract on offer is not feasible.

In fact the fact that the contract is offered is likely to create the impression that it is supposed to be feasible, and that the player is a failure for not being able to complete it.

[vinsent10]

It's not too hard,just boring.Launching a bunch of rockets to contract spam before you get to do a munlanding can be quite boring.

[Ziff]

Correct I tested that some days ago. A direct western (180°) inclination launch takes exactly 176 more deltaV then an eastern (0°) launch. Changing inclination in orbit is depending on what your Ap and Pe are.

With Ap being very highand Pe being as low as possible is the lowest delta-V to change inclination in orbit. Takes around 700 deltaV from an apoapsis at geosync. (2878km), but it's getting incredible high when you're in LKO orbit.

Your probes should easily have enough dV to cover that switch if you make a mistake. You don't need much to complete those missions. Most of my probes had like 4.5k dV , even with a materials bay and goo on board.

The game gives no information by which an inexperienced player can determine that a contract on offer is not feasible.

With the exception of the silly contracts that say test x part at this altitude/speed restrictions, the only information you need is the advance and payout. Then you go into the VAB and design a craft for the mission parameters and check to see the cost of the mission vs the advance/payout - BEFORE you accept the contract. It's easy enough from there to decide if it's a contract you can fulfill right now, one that should be accepted and delayed until better parts come along, or outright rejected.

It's just that there aren't any tutorials yet to explain that designing and checking the cost of craft before you launch a mission is a good idea.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Ziff

[harlikwin]

I like it the way it is.

I agree that 30 parts (and the size limitation of the launch pad) most probably don´t get you to Mun ...

but that just means that it would be a good idea to first do contracts in Kerbins SOI, in order to get enough money to upgrade VAB and Launchpad,

before rying to get to Mun

I think I upgraded the pad before going to the Mun, but its doable on 30 parts. I was somewhere toward the end of the 90 sci tech tree as well so maybe you need that but I didn't find it to be a problem getting the science. I didn't find it too hard or limiting and I am very far from being Scott Manley.

You just have to be smart about your contracts. Once you get to the Mun/minmus it gets easier IMO, but maybe that's because you have most of the tech you need and fewer limitations.

I think alot of the early game moaning is that people are used to playing without funding issues and things like parts/mass limits and are finding it hard to work around them. If you read the contracts (and I think people aren't doing that carefully), there is nothing there about getting a gold plated science package to the Mun with a cherry on top, just pay and plenty of science to get there, orbit, and land (nothing about getting back either or doing it with a kerbal necessarily). Of course everyone is used to doing it the old way and think that that is the way it has to be done, with a big return lander with goo canisters and sci-jr's etc so they can get max science for the mission.

I think once you adjust your thinking to making a profit first the game gets way easier. I'm currently mid game and using SRB's on alot ships/satellites to get to orbit mainly because they are cheap and we don't have a good way of recovering parts in game yet.

My first attempt at a satellite launch cost like 60k for a 100k contract, plenty of leftover Dv at the end and no recovered parts. I'm currently doing the same missions for like 25k now that I've gotten smarter.

Same thing for Mun/Minmus launches. Instead of a gold plated craft, you take the bare minimum craft to do the mission, and try to recover as much of the craft as possible.

Is this "fun"? For some people it is challenging, and if thats the case there is still science mode or sandbox. But I like it.

[sal_vager]

You can land on the Mun without upgrading the buildings, just don't also expect to also return

The first few contracts are enough to do some upgrades unless of course you're playing on hard, but then if you're playing on hard what did you expect?

[mjl1966]

I went from zero to upgraded tracking and launch pad in one day. The trick is to look for the contracts that pay the best. Some of the tests pay MUCH better than others. The other is to gather science independent of contracts. I agree that Fineprint as implemented is a little grindy, but I'm hoping that things start taking off as I go along. Kind of like a launch. It starts out kind of slow...

At the same time, it's an interesting challenge to get into orbit with just 18t to work with, especially if you need to collect science.

So, I see both plus and minus here. It should be hard in the beginning, but it seems a little uninteresting at first.

I'm wondering if some kind of staged program similar to Mercury/Gemini/Apollo might spice things up.

Stage 1: Kongress funds the Kerbal Space Program. Barely. You have just enough to build a single stage suborbital vehicle that collects atmospheric data in preparation for future missions. The science unlocks tech, but also unlocks missions. Merkury stuff.

Stage 2: Success brings publicity brings more funding and the entry of more aerospace kompanies to provide new and better systems. These missions include orbiting, docking and EVA. (Gemini) More tech. More missions unlocked. More Kongressional funding.

Stage 3: Munar orbital missions. Single capsule at first, then with transition and docking and trip to the moon, but no landing. Kerpollo 8 stuff. Must master retrograde munar orbital insertion, because you know Kerpollo 13 is just around the corner.

Stage 4: Munar landing, complete with Walter Kronkite (what a fit, huh?) Several missions, beginning with rock samples and working up to rovers and the first bits of Moonbase Kilo.

And so forth. You could fill things in with fueling depots and other goodies that make sense in the context of getting to the Mun and, eventually, the rest of the system.

Contracts could start to creep in as actual sources of revenue become available. But at first, it's all R&D fueled by PR and Go fever, which means you have to get it right!

The problem with the current system is that there is no real goal. Granted, as things progress, we will want the flexibility to do whatever we want. But a staged munar landing program to begin with might be more interesting to get the ball rolling.

Is this a mod opportunity?

[sal_vager]

Is this a mod opportunity?

Look for the Interstellar addon, I think you'll like that

[harlikwin]

I don't see why Squad can't just program a set of real progression missions that mimic the real world space race. And then have the random contracts in addition to that for fluff. Sort like an RPG, how you have a main story quest and sidequests for extra loot. The actual progression contracts could be hand-crafted to be balanced, meaningful, and fun, and the random contracts you get would depend on what phase of progression you are on.

I agree this would be an excellent way of doing things, also use contracts early on as a sort of "tutorial" for new players.

[dfscott]

I agree this would be an excellent way of doing things, also use contracts early on as a sort of "tutorial" for new players.

I agree with this as well. I had a lot of fun playing the campaigns in sandbox mode -- I would love to see something like that implemented within the game.

[Slam_Jones]

So I'm curious, how do other folks complete the Aerial Survey missions without a plane? I tried sticking wings and an LV-909 on a rocket, but I couldn't really get enough dV to get to any of the zones. Going to orbit first would require pretty precise de-orbiting to survey correctly.

Anyone figured this out?

[thyriel]

I agree with this as well. I had a lot of fun playing the campaigns in sandbox mode -- I would love to see something like that implemented within the game.

That would definitly be great +1

[Yemo]

So I'm curious, how do other folks complete the Aerial Survey missions without a plane? I tried sticking wings and an LV-909 on a rocket, but I couldn't really get enough dV to get to any of the zones. Going to orbit first would require pretty precise de-orbiting to survey correctly.

Anyone figured this out?

I m playing on hard. I tried a survey mission with my V-2 space capable vertical rocket.

Was not worth the time and effort, though paid ok.

https://imgur.com/gallery/xSaSJ

I think the overall monetary balance is ok, but the contract progression needs some work. Also the contracts pay way too much science overall.

Key for hard mode is, to build cheap & efficient (as I ve shown in the imgur gallery) and to concentrate on the profitable contracts, especially the altitude ones which are not offered if you reach that altitude before accepting.

Then test stuff in orbit for making good money (decline bad contracts to get good ones) and surveys when you have at least some wings.

After only the cheap launchpad upgrade, the mun missions are easily doable with relatively low science (103 total), if you spend it wisely...

Edited December 19, 2014 by Yemo

[Xavven]

So I'm curious, how do other folks complete the Aerial Survey missions without a plane? I tried sticking wings and an LV-909 on a rocket, but I couldn't really get enough dV to get to any of the zones. Going to orbit first would require pretty precise de-orbiting to survey correctly.

Anyone figured this out?

Here's what works for me:

Command pod and chute + decoupler (I dispose the rest of the rocket when the survey is done).

Stage 2: Fuel tank and LV-909

Stage 1: BACC solid booster

Burn straight up to start. Don't try to maneuver towards the survey site while you're on the solid booster or you will tip over and kill your kerbal. The goal is to get above 10km altitude so you can take advantage of the thinner air and less drag. Once above 10km, maneuver towards the survey site. No wings needed. I did 3 Kerbin surveys and then went on to satellite contracts, and never once build a plane.

[Borsek]

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/103675-0-90-ImprovedStrategies-v0-12

I'm just gonna leave this here and walk away

I like the new career though, more rules (craft size, tonnage, money) makes for more inventive ways to complete stuff. I just cancel contracts that I feel are not worth it.

[WanderingKid]

If you're finding career too difficult, you may want to check out my Let's Play in my sig. It's a Hard Career that I've been editing/recording. You may find it useful.

However, in general I agree RKMan, unless you know the price of the experimental part (which you can't check, ANYWHERE, in game except in a sandbox game) before you pick up the contract, you may lose a ton of cash.

Contract selection needs a review. At the least, the cost of the part should be included in the description of the test.

[Bekiekutmoar]

I've started Career on hard setting today and it is HARD indeed; Jebediah en Bill already died while their primitive rockets crashed throughout Kerbin and now I'm attempting to reach the Mun with max. 18 tons and 30 parts. The poor pilot is now stuck in orbit and I haven't researched the technology yet to rescue him. Right now, an interplanetary mission is far from pissible ... !

[harlikwin]

I m playing on hard. I tried a survey mission with my V-2 space capable vertical rocket.

Was not worth the time and effort, though paid ok.

https://imgur.com/gallery/xSaSJ

I think the overall monetary balance is ok, but the contract progression needs some work. Also the contracts pay way too much science overall.

Key for hard mode is, to build cheap & efficient (as I ve shown in the imgur gallery) and to concentrate on the profitable contracts, especially the altitude ones which are not offered if you reach that altitude before accepting.

Then test stuff in orbit for making good money (decline bad contracts to get good ones) and surveys when you have at least some wings.

After only the cheap launchpad upgrade, the mun missions are easily doable with relatively low science (103 total), if you spend it wisely...

Yup this is basically what I did/figured out. Much easier on normal mode I imagine though.

Don't build gold plated space ships, figure out the contracts minimums and how to reach them the cheapest way possible... Almost like real life

[harlikwin]

If you're finding career too difficult, you may want to check out my Let's Play in my sig. It's a Hard Career that I've been editing/recording. You may find it useful.

However, in general I agree RKMan, unless you know the price of the experimental part (which you can't check, ANYWHERE, in game except in a sandbox game) before you pick up the contract, you may lose a ton of cash.

Contract selection needs a review. At the least, the cost of the part should be included in the description of the test.

The cost of the part should at least be covered by the contract... I mean really, we want you to buy this part from us at full price and test it for $5.