How balanced is the career in 0.90?

[Laie]

FIRST OFF, THIS IS ABOUT CAREER MODE WITH DEFAULT SETTINGS.

Also, this is basically two polls: one about the balance relative to each other, the other about the general amount.

Personally, I think finding science is as easy as it ever was; being unable to EVA and/or take soil samples slows things down at first, but science from contracts quickly adds up, and you can soon redirect rep->science on top of that.

However, I find funding to be grindy. Practically the only well-paying contracts right now are satellites; and while the first few are a nice learning experience, this is getting old pretty quickly. I'll have to toss in a whole evening of satellite launches before I can seriously consider a Munshot. That's two or three hours and begins to feel like work, not play.

As a side effect, the free science from contracts also means that even my first munar mission can be done in style, using proper lander cans and even nuclear engines. The latter is a tad much, methinks.

Once the tech tree is filled out, I may convert science to funds; but even at the maximum conversion rate, the exploration of any body will not pay for the mission to get there.

EDIT: the last two shouldn't start with "about balanced", just inquire about too much/too little. How do I change/update a poll, can it be done?

Edited December 17, 2014 by Laie

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

This is what I am experiencing.

I was always concerned that you could stay in kerbins SOI to max out the techtree and with those contract-rewards it feels like that you could even stay on Kerbin alone to do that.

I cut down the Science-Reward down to 50% and but keep the Funds on default to keep me struggeling.

[ArmchairGravy]

The issue I have with Normal mode currently is I have to spend literally hundreds of thousands in funds to get to the point where I can even begin collecting science at what I consider to be a reasonable rate. The lack of space-based EVA reports and surface samples cripples early science gathering. Good luck getting a decent science package to Mun with a 30-part cap.

Normal modes needs rebalancing by reducing building costs at the least. As it stands now I've gone from playing Normal to Easy just to bypass that low-tier grind.

[Frank327]

The issue I have with Normal mode currently is I have to spend literally hundreds of thousands in funds to get to the point where I can even begin collecting science at what I consider to be a reasonable rate. The lack of space-based EVA reports and surface samples cripples early science gathering. Good luck getting a decent science package to Mun with a 30-part cap.

Normal modes needs rebalancing by reducing building costs at the least. As it stands now I've gone from playing Normal to Easy just to bypass that low-tier grind.

The way to really get going is to not take too much science stuff with you to the mun. My first mun landing only had 2 goo containers and I had upgraded the building to let my kerbals EVA. Just with that you can get hundreds of science points in a single trip. Just spam EVA reports like it's nobody's business, get every crew report and send it back. Then spam contracts on the mun to get you loads of funds and upgrade the VAB.

[xub313]

I like the progression of upgrading buildings in normal mode. Hard mode is pretty insane though. I'd recommend lowering science gains but keep funds near the default value.

[Ziff]

Funds increase rapidly once you get enough reputation to start getting "place satellite" missions. They're easy and have big profits.

[Franklin]

Given you can quickload/revert in Normal mode, and unlocking science tiers doesn't require you to purchase the respective parts, the idea that there is too little funds is comical.

I mean the only funds wall you should be hitting in Normal mode is trying to brute through contracts that are still out of your league.

[Franklin]

And as it was in .25, there's a slow crawl at the very beginning, but once you reach orbit the funds/science starts rolling in and I'd say it becomes too easy.

[Tinyboss]

With the "Outsourced R&D" strategy, it's trivial to max the entire science tree without leaving LKO or running a single experiment. Put it at 25%, do enough easy missions to get up to solar panels, then stick a guy in orbit, and farm "science from space around Kerbin" missions for easy funds and science. Once you have enough funds to upgrade your admin building, put it at 60%, and easily pile up enough science (10k) to never have to worry about it again.

[ArmchairGravy]

Given you can quickload/revert in Normal mode, and unlocking science tiers doesn't require you to purchase the respective parts, the idea that there is too little funds is comical.

I mean the only funds wall you should be hitting in Normal mode is trying to brute through contracts that are still out of your league.

I totally disagree. I have 48k left after upgrading the launchpad and the astronaut complex after doing everything through orbit Kerbin and a couple of visual surveys. Exploring Mun will barely cover the cost of upgrading the VAB. What I usually use for my 1st Mun trip is 34 parts, so I have to figure out an entirely new ship design that may or may not make it as I'll be flying an untried ship without patched conics.

With the "Outsourced R&D" strategy, it's trivial to max the entire science tree without leaving LKO or running a single experiment. Put it at 25%, do enough easy missions to get up to solar panels, then stick a guy in orbit, and farm "science from space around Kerbin" missions for easy funds and science. Once you have enough funds to upgrade your admin building, put it at 60%, and easily pile up enough science (10k) to never have to worry about it again.

The issue here is a) I have to have science to spend on unlocking it and I have to have funds to spare. I feel like I have neither in the early game.

Sure, once I get the first round of ugrades completed the game is going to be a lot easier. My problem is that the early game does not feel like Normal mode, it feels like .25's Hard mode. I'm not some noob here, folks. I have over 1500 hours of game play, so I know the mechanics. Normal mode in .90 is very restrictive in what can be done in what order, which to me is not what KSP is about. It may be a bit more challenging, but it's a lot more tedious.

Edit--Explore Mun doesn't cover the cost of the VAB upgrade. 210k for the upgrade while the mission payout is 185k.

Edited December 17, 2014 by ArmchairGravy

[Duke23]

I've had a love-hate relationship with the funds aspect since it was introduced, honestly. I really like the idea of it but when it comes to actually spending my time building up cash so I can upgrade this and that, I end up not having time to launch the missions I WANT to do. Luckily a fair amount of times the contracts will coincide with something I want to do, but a lot of times it's like work and then after a couple launches I wanted to play around with, it's back to grinding. I've played a little in Career mode in the latest version and I like the new features, but I still feel like I'm grinding. I look at how much the upgrades cost and think I'm going to have to do a lot of contracts just so I can start building my Mun space station, or whatever. I get that it can be done and it's "not that hard" but I don't always want to spend the time I have allotted by staging random parts in random places, sending up the same satellite 5 times, and rolling around a rover on Minmus looking for something that doesn't exist. At the same time I enjoy that my SSTOs have a more useful purpose and can bring down old satellites for some cash, and I appreciate the idea that "messing around" launches come at a price. I guess I'm just glad they left Science mode an option and I may be going mainly back to that. At the moment I'm doing a little of both but I keep getting frustrated. This is something I don't think I really mentioned before, but it's a main reason I was taking a break from KSP.

I wonder how plausible it would be to have an in-game contract editor? Design your own contracts in game, and the game decides how much it's worth. Would that completely defeat the point? It'd still sort of be grinding, but it'd be more enjoyable. Again I'm not saying the current system is "too hard" or "not enough funds", I'm just saying it's not as fun for me to grind like that. Now if I was playing the game like a non-sandbox game and going through contracts deliberately and in a linear fashion to complete the game, it'd be completely different and there probably would be "too much funds".

[harlikwin]

I never felt that the "normal" mode campaign is all that hard. I got to the Mun and back on 30 parts, though I did have to figure out a minimal way of doing it. About the only annoying contracts that I had to take were a few kerbin surveys using a terribly built aircraft that I designed. Once you can get to the Mun, you start getting very well paying survey missions there and on minmus (1/2mil in one mission), which helps alot with the cash flow. I think someone mentioned that your prestige points help you get better paying contracts to choose from.

[Ziff]

Edit--Explore Mun doesn't cover the cost of the VAB upgrade. 210k for the upgrade while the mission payout is 185k.

No, but putting satellites into orbit easily does and that's what you should be doing before going to the moon. That's just logical. I think they should delay the "Explore the moon" mission until you have some more reputation. I am sure that as Beta updates come along that this will be sorted out but as it is now the game starts off slow and gets way too easy after a short time.

Here's how my 1st playthrough went.

Break altitude record.

Do whatever easy money making/science contracts there are between each real flight. (Test x on launchpad/suborbital flights only.)

Multiple Suborbital flight with goo canisters, crew reports, to different biomes.

Upgrade astronaut complex

Orbital flight with goo canisters, science jr, crew reports.

Unlock radial decouplers, fuel lines.

Orbital flight, EVA, more crew reports from space.

Upgrade launchpad.

More suborbital flights with part tests.

Rescue Kerbal in space.

Unlock longer fuel tanks.

Upgrade tracking station.

Upgrade Mission control.

Start placing satellites in orbits for 100-200k each, plus tons of science.

Upgrade R&D

Launch 4-5 satellites, Unlock entire available tech tree (All nodes costing $300 or below.)

Upgrade VAB.

Upgrade Mission Control LVL3.

Take all contracts for satellites, space stations, moonbases.

I did this all within 6 hours, under the 30 part VAB limit. I've spent 2600 science, upgraded all those buildings to Lvl2 and Mission Control to 3, and have $500k+

I'm about to start building space stations and moon bases, I was just waiting for TAC LS to update for 0.90.

[ArmchairGravy]

Words

What I hear you saying is play my way. The entire point of KSP, especially in Normal mode, is I shouldn't have to.

[MKI]

I played on moderate and was able to get to the moon in a 30 part rocket.

Idk what's all this talk about it being impossible. Send a probe to land to finish the contract and upgrade the VAB

I must admit after the pad upgrade things get more risky but if fine well no were near impossible.

SAT missions are fairly easy enough, I did two and got the VAB done. If need be I could of went to minimus with the same 30 part rocket.

Science comes easy enough, every mission I fly is with the goal of getting more funds. I'm sitting on 200+ k funds and still need to send a manned mission to the surface of the mun, and on my way back from minimus in a free return.

I like the settings so far, things are hard enough I actually need to focus on playing the game. Rather than just doing what I want because everything is so easy haha.

[Frostiken]

The issue I have with Normal mode currently is I have to spend literally hundreds of thousands in funds to get to the point where I can even begin collecting science at what I consider to be a reasonable rate. The lack of space-based EVA reports and surface samples cripples early science gathering. Good luck getting a decent science package to Mun with a 30-part cap.

Normal modes needs rebalancing by reducing building costs at the least. As it stands now I've gone from playing Normal to Easy just to bypass that low-tier grind.

Honestly that was my initial biggest game-stopping hurdle. I play on medium/hard settings, and the 300k it takes to get over that ridiculous hump is PAINFUL. I was able to squeak under the 18T weight limit on the launchpad just enough to get it upgraded, but ugh, that VAB...

The upgrade levels are kind of ridiculous and badly implemented, IMO. They need to add some intermediary levels that are easier to get to. Going from 30 parts to 255 is rather unnecessary, and I was surprised to initially learn there were only three levels.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Frostiken

[Monger]

Playing on moderate, just took a quick peek into normal...

My impression is: it is already quite hard at that level. I did a few dozen missions now, and am still not entirely (and safely) ready to go to the Mun. You need an enormous amount of funds to upgrade some of the major buildings. Many lucrative missions are close to Kerbin's surface, but aircrafts are only available when you max out the tech tree on the lowest R&D center level. Even then: starting a plane on this level 1 runway is... well, not sane ^^. I thought about playing without flight reverts, but under such circumstances? Nope, I'd rather not.

Long story short: I think both science and funds is not easy to come by, especially for a beginner. Sometimes it is really easy, but in many early missions you need to plan very carefully. I think the difficuly level is okay like that, but it shouldn't get any harder - at least not in the early game.

[Frank327]

Honestly that was my initial biggest game-stopping hurdle. I play on medium/hard settings, and the 300k it takes to get over that ridiculous hump is PAINFUL. I was able to squeak under the 18T weight limit on the launchpad just enough to get it upgraded, but ugh, that VAB...

The upgrade levels are kind of ridiculous and badly implemented, IMO. They need to add some intermediary levels that are easier to get to. Going from 30 parts to 255 is rather unnecessary, and I was surprised to initially learn there were only three levels.

I don't think the VAB is a ridiculous hurdle but I have to admit I breathed a sigh of relief once I got it upgraded. The way I see it the steps you need to take are Pad -> VAB -> Pad -> VAB. You can reach orbit quite easily without an upgrade, you need a pad upgrade for the mun, you need a tracking centre upgrade for minmus and then a VAB upgrade for interplanetary. Not all of those steps are easy though, and those specific hurdles will determine what difficulty level is right for you.

That said, I'm not under the impression that moderate is all that more difficult than normal. even on normal those buildings are really really expensive. Maybe the pricing of the buildings should be spread out more across difficulty levels? (a.k.a. normal and easy really need lower building prices, especially VAB and research facilities)

[Laie]

Start placing satellites in orbits for 100-200k each, plus tons of science.

Upgrade R&D

Launch 4-5 satellites

Upgrade VAB.

That's pretty much how it's working out for me as well. Though I guess I will revert to thermometer probes: 1/10th of the money at 1/50th of the effort.

I really like the idea of [funds] but when it comes to actually spending my time building up cash so I can upgrade this and that, I end up not having time to launch the missions I WANT to do.

Exactly. By the third satellite it became something I had to do in order to get on with the game. As a side effect, most of my science came out of contracts. So interestingly enough, the game funnels you towards not doing science in the field: first you can't afford it, then you no longer need to. A (much) higher advance payment on "Explore the Mun" would change this. Whether that would be desirable is anybody's guess (then again, you could still spam satellites and redirect funds to science; but it wouldn't be the only way of playing the game).

Edited December 17, 2014 by Laie

[zarakon]

It feels pretty good to me so far

Biomes I think are still an issue, with how you're able to get enormous amounts of science from one object just by doing EVA reports and measurements above different biomes in a polar orbit. It's one part overpowered, and one part tedious. It would probably be better if the amount of science you get from a particular body starts to drop off, even if you're checking out different biomes. I.E. the first EVA report you do is worth the full amount, the second biome slightly less, and by the 12th biome it would be worth very little.

Science-related strategies are still super broken. Outsourced R&D gives 1000 science for 35k funds? SIGN ME UP! On the flip-side, Patents Licensing is total garbage unless you've already researched everything. These would both be more reasonable if the exchange rates were swapped.

[Renegrade]

The upgrade levels are kind of ridiculous and badly implemented, IMO. They need to add some intermediary levels that are easier to get to. Going from 30 parts to 255 is rather unnecessary, and I was surprised to initially learn there were only three levels.

I agree with this. While I don't find it a grind, there's this HUGE gap between 18 tons and 140 tons, and 30 parts and 255 parts. That's going from a comfortable Mun orbiter (or really squishy tight Mun lander, possibly) to an interplanetary station mission.

I would really like a tier of upgrades in between the starting facilities, and the first level upgraded facilities - like 70 parts and 50 tons (or thereabouts). That would take us from LKO/Munshots to Mun landers/small Mun stations.

Also struts shouldn't count as parts

[Franklin]

Given you can quickload/revert in Normal mode, and unlocking science tiers doesn't require you to purchase the respective parts, the idea that there is too little funds is comical.

I mean the only funds wall you should be hitting in Normal mode is trying to brute through contracts that are still out of your league.

I totally disagree. I have 48k left after upgrading the launchpad and the astronaut complex after doing everything through orbit Kerbin and a couple of visual surveys. Exploring Mun will barely cover the cost of upgrading the VAB. What I usually use for my 1st Mun trip is 34 parts, so I have to figure out an entirely new ship design that may or may not make it as I'll be flying an untried ship without patched conics.

Are you suggesting there's too little cashflow because what you usually do has left you broke after the upgrades needed to accommodate your usual build, and building something you haven't built before is something you'd rather avoid? In KSP?

edit: I mean, upgrade balancing aside, which I'm sure we'll see plenty of, the idea that the game's too difficult because you can't just use the same recipe you're used to is kinda silly.

edit2: Also, it still kind of sounds like you're trying to brute your way into a contract league you're not ready for. Do some more 2-star contracts and build up your funds.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Franklin

[SorryDave]

I did suffer a little sticker price shock at the upgrade costs initially. As I play the game more, I find that the overall balance of career is better than in alpha.

I usually try and unlock the tech tree as quickly as possible and I thought the upgrades for EVA would irritate me. Turns out I was wrong.

Maybe it is time to start a new thread: "Is anyone else trying to dislike career mode, but now enjoys it?"

It is my hope that career mode takes a decent amount of hours to play and is challenging by the time they release this game.

[Kelderek]

I used to play moderate difficulty in 0.25 and I found that a bit much here in 0.90, so I decided to make a custom career starting with normal difficulty as a base and I changed all of the checkboxes to match the way they are for moderate (part entry costs, etc.), I left all the sliders and starting funds/science/rep the way they are for normal. With the entry cost enabled for parts, I have to think long and hard about which parts I really need immediately, and which ones I can wait on until later.

For most of my early play I did not use any probes, but always flew with Jeb, Bob, and Bill to help them get XP. I did not try to go to the Mun or Minmus until I had unlocked level 2 for the launchpad, astronaut complex, and the VAB (in that order). This allowed my first mission to the Mun to have a ship large enough to take all 3 of my main Kerbals for a round trip with a landing and flag planting ceremony, netting me some excellent XP. I followed this with 1 more mission to the Mun and 2 to Minmus, hitting a couple biomes in each. I left behind a tiny probe in low orbit for each of these so I can readily do "Science data from space near X" contracts when they show up.

In short, I've really enjoyed this new career a lot and I feel the difficulty is right where I would want it to be. The contracts could use a little tweaking for sure, but I didn't find it too grindy to advance.

[Ziff]

What I hear you saying is play my way. The entire point of KSP, especially in Normal mode, is I shouldn't have to.

The entire point of Sandbox mode is play your way. Early Career mode has some severe restrictions. If you want to go to the moon in under 30 parts then you need to be very creative. Try a free return trajectory and see if you can get some science data from flying over the moon first.

Nowhere did I say play my way. I did not even begin to infer that. You said the moon contract didn't cover the cost of upgrading the VAB. Why should it? Perhaps Squad wants people to learn basic game mechanics before going to the moon, that's their decision not mine. Honestly I believe it should take multiple contracts to upgrade buildings. I only merely pointed out how I accomplished it the early career mode with science and cash to spare.