18t (or less) Returnable Manned Mun Lander

[cantab]

Er, does that let you surface mount a node-attach-only part like the 48-7S? O.o

EDIT: Ah, I see, the node comes back after attachment when part clipping is turned on (I generally avoid the part clipping option)... scary!

Yeah, you attach one, offset it, attach the next, offset that, and so on.

Maybe it's cheaty, since otherwise I'd need 12 cuboct struts, but it's not like I'm gravhacking or fuelhacking.

WanderingKid, on your rocket design ditch the girders and land on the engine.

[WanderingKid]

WanderingKid, on your rocket design ditch the girders and land on the engine.

Girders, while not massless in the VAB, are during flight. They're just there to protect the engine. It's all good though, new design, much better, less worrisome. Just trying to get the fuel load right to avoid flameout.

[katateochi]

Nice Kata! You need to up R&D a level to get Turbojets but a nice craft anyway!

My best so far: Orbiting Mun and returning (with Aerobrake):

http://i.imgur.com/4pytEd3.png

Note: You can't offset two 'centerline' thrusters onto the same axle. you have to use F12 to get the clusters of engines.

ah you where looking for craft that could launch at tier 1, not just low weight, I see. yeah under 18tons with T1 gear is gonna be much harder.

[Renegrade]

Maybe it's cheaty, since otherwise I'd need 12 cuboct struts, but it's not like I'm gravhacking or fuelhacking.

I'm more worried about bugs than cheating there... does a node have any special meaning re: the ship's internal tree structure?

I'd love to see more engine mounting options in stock (like that thrust plate adapter from Procedural Fairings, or the 0.625m fixed adapters from RLA Stockalike, or the attachment system of AIES) though.

[cantab]

Girders, while not massless in the VAB, are during flight.

You sure? I know the small cubic and octagonal struts are physicsless, but I didn't think the larger girders were. I just looked in my .90 config files and they don't have the PhysicsSignificance = 1 line.

I'm more worried about bugs than cheating there... does a node have any special meaning re: the ship's internal tree structure?

Yeah, there's a warning about doing this being a bug-magnet. I think in my case because I have four identical parts attached, and no parts attached to them, I'm likely to be safe. But if you do more complex things it can be different.

See, for example, the four engine clusters on this ship built back in .23.5: https://flic.kr/p/nkQxru Both the four-way adapter and the girder are attached to the bottom of the orange tank. Depending on what order I placed those parts in, I could end up with no fuel flow to the engines.

Edited December 19, 2014 by cantab

[WanderingKid]

You sure? I know the small cubic and octagonal struts are physicsless, but I didn't think the larger girders were. I just looked in my .90 config files and they don't have the PhysicsSignificance = 1 line.

Um, no, now that you mention it, I'm NOT sure.

I was running off the wiki, and since one was I assumed they all were. Whoops.

So, 28 parts. 15.7t. To the Mun, landed, and returned (with Aerobrake). With finer tuning I won't run out of gas screwing around in Kerbin Orbit and end up 'landing anywhere'.

[foamyesque]

Um, no, now that you mention it, I'm NOT sure.

I was running off the wiki, and since one was I assumed they all were. Whoops.

So, 28 parts. 15.7t. To the Mun, landed, and returned (with Aerobrake). With finer tuning I won't run out of gas screwing around in Kerbin Orbit and end up 'landing anywhere'.

http://i.imgur.com/qFCHPax.png

Ditch the landing legs and top decoupler. You can do a thrust&chute soft-landing on Kerbin, and you should be able to land a short stack like that on the Mun without legs. If you've got nerves of steel, you can omit the 'chute altogether and try for a suicide-burn landing on Kerbin, but that's riskier.

[Pecan]

Rushing off to work but I'd like to point out that after my first mission I had upgraded the launchpad, astronaut complex and mission control as well as unlocked (some) science as far as the OX-STAT solar panel.

[Superfluous J]

Rushing off to work but I'd like to point out that after my first mission I had upgraded the launchpad, astronaut complex and mission control as well as unlocked (some) science as far as the OX-STAT solar panel.

Going by the first post, I was under the assumption that this was not a request for help but more of a "can it be done" sort of thing. And it turns out it can

[federicoaa]

I'd like to see what Scott Manley can do with tier 1 buildings only

[foamyesque]

Rushing off to work but I'd like to point out that after my first mission I had upgraded the launchpad, astronaut complex and mission control as well as unlocked (some) science as far as the OX-STAT solar panel.

I'd like to know how you earned 400k on your first flight.

[Superfluous J]

I'd like to know how you earned 400k on your first flight.

I imagine he got into Kerbin orbit, and stayed there doing EVA reports of every biome (after upgrading whatever gives you that). And also declining every contract until he got a "science from space around Kerbin" contract to do with his EVA'd guy.

But that's just a guess.

[foamyesque]

I imagine he got into Kerbin orbit, and stayed there doing EVA reports of every biome (after upgrading whatever gives you that). And also declining every contract until he got a "science from space around Kerbin" contract to do with his EVA'd guy.

Can't EVA without the astronaut complex and you can send exactly one science transmission with the stock pod's batteries, and on your first mission you won't have access to anything else, so you can't farm the science-from-space, either.

[thyriel]

It's pretty interesting to just look what is possible with level 1 buildings

But i think the designs here have a big flaw yet: they are too heave

That's how i did it now just for fun including return to Kerbin and only 6,4 tons of total weight , no building upgrades at all needed (although i already had the launchpad and spacecenter upgraded, but that little vessel fits easily in lvl 1 launchpad). Not practicable for a real game as it needs quite some tier5 tech like LT-5, 48-7S engine, solar panels, etc...

- Lander: 11 Parts, 900kg

- Complete Rocket: 21 Parts, 6400 kg, 11.3m high

Lander:

Okto + 3xLT-5 Landing, 3 solar panels, MK16, FL-T100 fuel, 48-7S engine (limited to 20% thrust), Z200 battery (probably not needed)

Stages:

1st - as there's so much weight and height left it can be done without Jetengine. I tested around a bit going just to orbit. Jet Engine with 1 Mk1 liquid fuel tank (with only 15 liquid fuel in it) seems best, but it works too with one BACC solid, so build it as you like it just needs to get you to an Apo of ~25-30km

2nd - LV909 engine + 1x-FL-T400 tank

3rd - 48-7s engine + FL-T200 tank

I came with the 3rd engine into orbit around mun and started landing. Delta-v left when back at Kerbin where nice 600 dV. (With a lot not optimal flying, i'm pretty bad at low dV landing) - but, it could even land on Kerbin then (i splashed so it didn't work) without parachute if you're good at it

Images:

VAB + engineer redux data: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=358350971

Right before mun touchdown: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=358351585

EDIT: If anyone likes to beat that baby, here's a challenge thread for it: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/103925-Lightest-Mun-Lander-%28-return%29-you-can-build-w-o-upgrading-Buildings?p=1613852

Edited December 19, 2014 by thyriel

[monophonic]

Can't EVA without the astronaut complex and you can send exactly one science transmission with the stock pod's batteries, and on your first mission you won't have access to anything else, so you can't farm the science-from-space, either.

How much recharging do you think one could do with the LV-T30, if you manage an optimal ascent? The fuel supply is limited I know, but if you only transmit when there's a contract to fulfill, maybe you can farm enough?

I'd get really bored really fast trying to run a mission like that though. I have more fun flying the altitude records in order, slapping on just one more T200 for the next flight.

[foamyesque]

How much recharging do you think one could do with the LV-T30, if you manage an optimal ascent?

Hm, it's an idea. With explosive staging you could use some RT-10s to help out as well, which might get you enough. I'll check the numbers later.

[Superfluous J]

Can't EVA without the astronaut complex and you can send exactly one science transmission with the stock pod's batteries, and on your first mission you won't have access to anything else, so you can't farm the science-from-space, either.

I forgot that the basic (non-Fine-Print) contracts require you to return the data. I was thinking the Fine Print stuff where as soon as you take the reading you complete the contract. You're right, this wouldn't work with just "return science from space!" contracts.

[cantab]

It's pretty interesting to just look what is possible with level 1 buildings

But i think the designs here have a big flaw yet: they are too heave

That's because the other designs are manned. Not that a probe mission isn't worth doing, but there's an order of magnitude difference in mass between the probe core and the command pod.

[thyriel]

That's because the other designs are manned. Not that a probe mission isn't worth doing, but there's an order of magnitude difference in mass between the probe core and the command pod.

must have missed that then

Will try to update it with an MK1 pod then, shouldn't be too hard getting 75% more mass up there with still 11,5t free to be used

EDIT:

Ok here's an updated design for manned that made it back with exactly 0 dV left

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=358418432

Lander has slightly over 1600kg (removed monoprob from capsule)

Landed nearly with stage 2. Coupled it off with no fuel left 200m above ground, at that time i floated in the air, so only some seconds of minimum burn where needed for a soft landing. 1125 m/s left for returning home, so i didn't even tried to find a low delta-v return path.

But doing that in stock game with no mods showing some data requires for sure a good player pilot Landing was nearly a suicide burn.

On the mun: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=358420160

Edited December 19, 2014 by thyriel

[Pecan]

I forgot that the basic (non-Fine-Print) contracts require you to return the data. I was thinking the Fine Print stuff where as soon as you take the reading you complete the contract. You're right, this wouldn't work with just "return science from space!" contracts.

No, you nailed it first time. "Transmit or recover", although crew-report transmissions are fine on the way up thanks to the T30 recharging the pod battery (as you were all speculating), the rest is returned. Here are my mission notes, made after the event:

Mission 1 - Straight To Orbit

Accept best advance money from 'basic 4' contracts - new vessel, 5000m, escape atmosphere, orbit.

***Use advance money to upgrade mission control so you can accept more contracts.***

Command pod & parachute, communotron 16, 10 x FL-T200 fuel tanks, T30 engine

'Launch', perform crew report on launch pad and transmit it. EVA, get EVA report.

Liftoff, perform crew report in flight (over Kerbin's shore), transmit it (and EVA report). Get another over water and/or in upper atmosphere below 69km and transmit it, 'in space' above that. (T30 has been charging pod electricity so you transmit several times - now it's off, you can't)

This has completed the basic contracts. Once in orbit return to the space-centre and ***use money to upgrade astronaut centre - EVA off-Kerbin now possible.***

See if there are any 'science from space', EVA or other easy contracts available. Accept them for advance, perform now if possible.

Check for any other contracts that can be completed straight away. Unlock science (basic rocketry, Survivability, Flight Control (for the probe-core and aircraft parts), Electric (for the solar-panel) to see if that makes any more available.

Perform EVAs all the way around orbit for as many different biomes as possible, then de-orbit and land. Do another EVA (and crew report if possible) from wherever you've landed, then recover.

Result: Mission-control and astronaut complex are already upgraded, now upgrade the launchpad too. Jeb is promoted to level 1, you should have over 100k in funds and some useful science unlocked.

As it happens I also got a lucky fluke 'visual survey' contract just West of KSC that I just happened to fly over on the way to landing. Can't expect that to come-up too often though.

"Explore Mun" for second mission maybe, although I think I should upgrade the TC first. Satellite contracts should pay for that (I think, haven't looked as I've only just got back from work) plus I can start putting up SCANSats as I have the solar panel.

ETA: It wasn't a boring mission at all as the only even slightly 'grindy' bit was repeated EVAs and, since it was only for one orbit, I just time-warped to the next biome (by eye, in map view), reverted to 1xtime, EVA & report, re-board, repeat ... Got 8 in one orbit, plus the crew reports and one 'science from space' contract. The big trick is to upgrade, unlock science and get new contracts as soon as possible - don't wait until the end of the mission.

LOL - it turns out I have enough satellite missions available the advances pay for the TC upgrade as well :-)

Edited December 19, 2014 by Pecan

[Rainbow-Dashie]

18t Mun Mission 0_0, It took a 17.5t ship for me to get into orbit around kerbin, at even then it just barely made it to a 70k orbit to complete the contract, and the only way it got back down was the force of the decupler on the crew capsule managed to knock the orbit down to 67k

[Superfluous J]

I have one question about your otherwise very cool strategy that I'm going to try the next time I start a career:

Check for any other contracts that can be completed straight away. Unlock science (basic rocketry, Survivability, Flight Control (for the probe-core and aircraft parts), Electric (for the solar-panel) to see if that makes any more available.

As you stated at the top, you're accepting these "science in space" contracts and getting the advance, but you're not completing them as you cannot transmit any data. So:

1. How are you completing these other contracts you find "straight away"? What contracts at this level allow you to complete them without launching another rocket? (Other than that one survey that you said isn't likely to happen all that often)
   
2. From where are you getting the science points to unlock things if you can't transmit data from orbit and can't start a new launch?
   

(Note to anybody coming in after the fact, Pecan has a method to get lots of cash and science in the very first launch. He is ABLE to launch other things in the meantime, but this is more of a "I can" than an "I should" question)

[WanderingKid]

Pecan: What difficulty are you at? 100k is barely enough to upgrade the Launchpad in Hard.

I've confirmed the Hybrid Munshooter is viable in sandbox. I plan to take it for a spin in recording later today in my career mode. "Simulator Tests show a high success rate..."

EDIT: And 5th Horseman was correct, I originated this post to know if it COULD be done, before I spun my wheels for an entire evening trying to eek a few extra hundred dV out of a craft. I ended up having to completely adjust my approach.

Edited December 19, 2014 by WanderingKid

[foamyesque]

Are upgrade costs cheaper in lower difficulty settings or something? Because there's no way to grab 64k from the advances on those contracts on Hard.

[Pecan]

I have one question about your otherwise very cool strategy that I'm going to try the next time I start a career:

As you stated at the top, you're accepting these "science in space" contracts and getting the advance, but you're not completing them as you cannot transmit any data. So:

[*]How are you completing these other contracts you find "straight away"? What contracts at this level allow you to complete them without launching another rocket? (Other than that one survey that you said isn't likely to happen all that often)

[*]From where are you getting the science points to unlock things if you can't transmit data from orbit and can't start a new launch?

(Note to anybody coming in after the fact, Pecan has a method to get lots of cash and science in the very first launch. He is ABLE to launch other things in the meantime, but this is more of a "I can" than an "I should" question)

@WanderingKid - whatever the default settings are, I only mess about with career to see if it has anything interesting to add, otherwise I design and build in sandbox. There are no extra points for doing things the 'hard' way (CSM Hall, 1982)

There was exactly ONE 'science from space' contract during my first mission, and even that was probably just lucky. I certainly wouldn't want to bank on it again. The visual contract was an entirely unexpected one and I'd think the chance of that was practically zero - it lterally appeared between my de-orbit burn and re-entry.

There weren't any other contracts I could complete during this mission but there were several - with the upgraded mission control - that I could accept now and complete, maybe, in four or five years ... *Yeah! Like I'm going to run the game that long!" .. Apologies for writing it wrongly. Get the advance payment, leverage the advance payment, do what you wanted to (penalties for failure are going to catch up with you a LOT later, if at all). Havng said that I only took contracts that I was willing - and expecting to be able - to complete.

Screenshots follow ...

Here is the blurb:

Escape atmosphere: advance 9,449, completion 29,528/15/95

Launch new vessel: advance 1,835, completion 4,587/5/11

Orbit Kerbin: advance 14,764, completion 59.055/30/142

Visual Survey: advance 3,787, completion 15,907/10/18

Science data: advance 5,000, completion 30,000/1/150

Altitude 5000m: advance 459, completion 2,294/0/11

Edited December 20, 2014 by Pecan