"Achievement" contracts would be better automatic, but hidden

[SkyRender]

This occurred to me this morning: the player is going to want to achieve those various "Kerbin World-Firsts" contracts. There's no way they can avoid it for a lot of them. But having to accept them as contracts doesn't really make sense, especially not with limited contract space in the early Mission Control building. More to the point, it's very easy to lose out on one of those contracts or have your early Mission Control contract list polluted with them and no way to cancel out of them, locking you in a situation where you cannot make the Funds necessary for a launch to even achieve them.

The solution is easy enough: desginate them as "special" contracts, separate from the normal contract list, and have them all be accepted at the start of the game. But when listing them under the accepted contracts, only list the ones that the player currently has progressed far enough to know about. This would preserve the intent of these contracts (to push new players to attempt those big goals), while neither cheating experienced players out of them nor tripping up new players by getting "contract locked" and unable to proceed.

[SkyRender]

After doing some testing and confirming that it's very easy to get this to happen:

...I'm going to have to bump this topic back up. Contract-locking is a very real possibility with achievement contracts being impossible to cancel. All it takes is a few careless upgrades and a few bad launches, and you can be stuck with no way to take any contracts to recover your funds. Making them at least not part of the regular contracts list would prevent this rather handily, as well as make it possible to ease new players into the contract system without potentially locking them out of the game almost immediately.

[Guest]

+1 A lot of contracts in KSP could be made into automatic achievements with automatic rewards, and they would make more sense as such.

[LethalDose]

I feel like there's a happy medium here.

First, "Explore X" missions can pop-up whenever they do now. That allows the contract system to 'nudge' novice players as to what planets to explore next, which is part of the purpose of the system, from what I understand.

However, when you enter the SoI of a new body for which you don't have an explore contract, you should get a notification (like a contract completed notification) that you've been offered a new exploration contract for the planet of moon you've just approached. The game would basically be forced to offer the contract if it wasn't already on the list.

This way, the contract can show up on it's own, but the contracts are permanently LOST if you skip around how you explore the system (which total krap). It also doesn't make the achievements "automatic", so you still have some degree of agency about taking the contracts, which isn't important from a "game play" point of view, but it helps people keep track of things, in that they are selecting the contract, and are being made aware of the contract in game.

Anyway, I agree that the current implementation of the explore contracts is frakking stupid.

[Guest]

Also, if you, say, show up to Moho really early, and the contract automatically pops up for selection, you should get credit for things that have already been done pertaining to that contract, especially considering they are one-time contracts.

[LethalDose]

Also, if you, say, show up to Moho really early, and the contract automatically pops up for selection, you should get credit for things that have already been done pertaining to that contract, especially considering they are one-time contracts.

Eh, I think this is pretty iffy. No other contracts give you credit for what you've done previously (Though explore contracts should be considered separate contract type). If you just offer the contract before you have the opportunity to perform any of the actions in the liste (e.g. enter orbit, transmit science), it avoids the problem with credit for previous actions.

At this point (i.e. the next release is 'full release'), I worry about the "special kind of contracts" needing to be programmed in, whereas adding criteria to force the contract to be offered (could be triggered at SoI shifts) would, I expect, require less novel code.

Just a different opinion.

[Guest]

Eh, I think this is pretty iffy. No other contracts give you credit for what you've done previously (Though explore contracts should be considered separate contract type). If you just offer the contract before you have the opportunity to perform any of the actions in the liste (e.g. enter orbit, transmit science), it avoids the problem with credit for previous actions.

So what you're saying is it should detect whether I will make an SOI change and offer the contract before it happens? Yeah, I could live with that. I just think it's stupid that I have to enter Moho's SOI before I get the contract out of order, then, after accepting it, I have to exit and re-enter SOI to get credit for that part of it. It's tedious gameplay.

[Kelderek]

An achievement system would be a nice alternative way to earn funds. There are a ton of possible milestones that you could complete to gain some bonus, though I would limit it to only funds and maybe reputation and not any science. I tend to think of the challenge system from the Borderlands games as a good example. The counts would be cumulative yielding larger rewards the more you do. They would also take into account inherent difficulty (a surface sample from Eve > one from the Mun). Here are some examples off the top of my head:

Generic Biome Science: "transmit or retrieve science data from 5, 10, 15, ... different biomes"

Body specific biome science: "transmit or retrieve science data from 1, 3, 5, ... different biomes on the Mun"

Experiment specific science: "transmit or retrieve science data using a 2HOT Thermometer from 1, 5, 10, 15, ... different biomes"

You could separate out transmitting and retrieving to promote doing it both ways. So if you want to send a probe to the Mun first you'll get some credit for doing that and then later on if you send a Kerbal you could get credit again.

You could even move all of the "explore" contract items into milestone achievements:

Flight specific location science: "transmit or retrieve science data in space near Minmus"

Flight generic location science: "transmit or retrieve science data in space near 1, 3, 5, ... planets or moons"

The main difference with this sort of system is that you do not get any funds in advance like you do with contracts, but it also gives you more freedom to explore and make your own mission plans, knowing that you will accumulate gradual achievement unlocks which will pay for future missions. I think this method would be far more fun than only grinding out contracts. It would really promote freedom and exploration. There is no reason why you couldn't have both contracts and achievements together as long as the payouts are balanced properly.

[LethalDose]

So what you're saying is it should detect whether I will make an SOI change and offer the contract before it happens? Yeah, I could live with that. I just think it's stupid that I have to enter Moho's SOI before I get the contract out of order, then, after accepting it, I have to exit and re-enter SOI to get credit for that part of it. It's tedious gameplay.

Two points: First, in my first suggestion in this thread, I suggested that exploration contracts could be offered via both methods: Offered after other bodies visited (e.g. Minmus can be offered after the Mun is 'explored', or whatever the criteria is) AND when the SoI is breached.

Second, "entering the SoI" isn't an explore contract criterion. The bolded part of your statement isn't part of the explore contracts (or at least it wasn't last time I checked, I've barely touched 0.90). The criteria are typically: orbit, return or transmit orbital science, land, return or transmit surface science. Yes, in my suggestion, you would need to go back to the Space Center to accept the newly offered contract, but you would certainly not have to leave the SoI to get the contract, then leave it and re-enter it. You would transmit science and make orbit after you accept the contract.

I guess going back to the space center could be seen as a bit of a hassle, but that could be ameliorated with a dialog window/button in the alert you would get when the contract gets offered. However, again, I'm trying to minimize the coding for the devs, since that seems to make them krap their pants.

Edit: Nvm the first point, you qualified entering the SoI "out of order". No need for it.

Edited February 17, 2015 by LethalDose

[Guest]

The main difference with this sort of system is that you do not get any funds in advance like you do with contracts, but it also gives you more freedom to explore and make your own mission plans, knowing that you will accumulate gradual achievement unlocks which will pay for future missions. I think this method would be far more fun than only grinding out contracts. It would really promote freedom and exploration. There is no reason why you couldn't have both contracts and achievements together as long as the payouts are balanced properly.

I fully support a system like this. It would help reduce the tedious grind of this cookie-cutter gameplay.

"entering the SoI" isn't an explore contract criterion.

Right, right, I'm forgetting myself.

[cpast]

The issue I have with the current exploration contracts is that it discourages me from going out of the predefined order. I would have launched an Eve probe, but I don't have a contract for Eve exploration yet, and it seems like sending a probe too early would mess with my ability to get a contract later.

[Kelderek]

The issue I have with the current exploration contracts is that it discourages me from going out of the predefined order. I would have launched an Eve probe, but I don't have a contract for Eve exploration yet, and it seems like sending a probe too early would mess with my ability to get a contract later.

This is why moving the explore contract items into achievements would work so much better. Do them in any order you want. I do think that some form of the explore contracts would be useful as an indicator to nudge players in a good direction, but they definitely need work to make sure you don't miss out if you do them out of a more traditional order.

[Tuareg]

Two points: First, in my first suggestion in this thread, I suggested that exploration contracts could be offered via both methods: Offered after other bodies visited (e.g. Minmus can be offered after the Mun is 'explored', or whatever the criteria is) AND when the SoI is breached.

Second, "entering the SoI" isn't an explore contract criterion. The bolded part of your statement isn't part of the explore contracts (or at least it wasn't last time I checked, I've barely touched 0.90). The criteria are typically: orbit, return or transmit orbital science, land, return or transmit surface science. Yes, in my suggestion, you would need to go back to the Space Center to accept the newly offered contract, but you would certainly not have to leave the SoI to get the contract, then leave it and re-enter it. You would transmit science and make orbit after you accept the contract.

I guess going back to the space center could be seen as a bit of a hassle, but that could be ameliorated with a dialog window/button in the alert you would get when the contract gets offered. However, again, I'm trying to minimize the coding for the devs, since that seems to make them krap their pants.

Edit: Nvm the first point, you qualified entering the SoI "out of order". No need for it.

it would be far easier and a lot more sensible simply just when you enter moho soi or get orbit around moho or whatever it would just appear in your DONE mission without actually receiving and accepting the mission. it should be active from the very beginning of the game hidden and when you do it it would just say, congratulation jeb you have done a great step, you made a kerbal dream a reality. full stop. mission done. you are a cool guy

[MartGonzo]

Seems like a good idea, those early altitude contracts can be easy to miss if you go too high.

[KerbMav]

The issue I have with the current exploration contracts is that it discourages me from going out of the predefined order.

Where do I sign?

Either all exploration "contracts" are displayed in an extra tab and can be done at any time - kind of like a achievement system, I guess - or they should start to pop-up after you attain your first orbit around Kerbin or Kerbol - and be "randomizable" by rejecting offered contracts as usual.

Also, contracts for moons should always (do they yet?) appear together with their parent body!

[tater]

Wow, I entirely missed this thread when I posted something similar/related here.

My idea was to take some of those earlier achievement "contracts" and replace them with those like the milestone contracts ("Explore the Mun," etc). Was thinking they should lump all the altitude ones into "Achieve Spaceflight," then maybe add "Suborbital science" (various science missions below orbit), and ideally add some orbital missions that require plane changing, EVA, rendezvous, etc (as training for new players---think verbal Project Gemini here)).

[r4pt0r]

The issue I have with the current exploration contracts is that it discourages me from going out of the predefined order. I would have launched an Eve probe, but I don't have a contract for Eve exploration yet, and it seems like sending a probe too early would mess with my ability to get a contract later.

You should lend support to my suggestion here then http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/104368-Mun-Duna-Gilly%28ect-%29-Program

Contracts are great but say a player wants more control over their space program. I propose, programs.

Here is how I envision it.

I enter Mission control and click "start exploration program"

From there I can name my program(kerpollo, mercury, whatever you want)

Then you select the planet/moon you wish to explore with this program.

Then It gives you a series of contracts(in a somewhat logical sense) for that planet.

-get a probe in orbit/flyby

-unmanned landers(mission control might offer bonuses if you land in certain areas "We would love to see the ice caps on duna")

-then manned missions orbit, flyby, or go for gold and land.

-final objective is to return a sample and a kerbal from ______'s surface