Orbit, jetpack and Science points bugs

[Redgum]

Readme.txt version :

Version 0.90.0 Beta

BuildID64:m

build id = 00705

2014-12-15_14-29-19

Branch: master

KSP Executable:

File version: 4.5.5.37569

Product version: 4.5.5.168641

Didn't see any other posts about these issues so will provide high level first, and dig down with files if an answer isn't forthcoming.

1. Jet pack bug: Noticed right from the get go that once my plucky Kerbal got into orbit, upon EVA at anytime, the Jetpak does NOT work. If the Kerbal lets go, there's no way to jet back to the craft. He dies, she* dies; they all die. Any Kerbonaught CAN walk around on the ground and jump etc. Just in space, they have no jetpack activation despite showing a full load of mono.

2. Any science discovered and then TRANSMITTED does NOT (see note below) show up at the end of the mission. In other words, my career does not get credit for it. The only science values that I've been able to keep are those that I save until a SAFE landing, then recover the craft.

3. Noticed just tonight that after several successful missions, attempting to fly the Stayputnik into orbit failed twice, the third time I went by the numbers (I use a checklist for my launch platforms when I'm trying to do something more precise) and it still failed. Why? Because it seems that Kerbal stopped rotating. Flying east, my orbit speed continually dropped. I tried a fourth time to fly west and got the same degrading effect -- a slowing down instead of speeding up, despite max throttle. After shutting the game down, it appears to have fixed whatever it was -- I can orbit once again.

Note: #2 - After shutting the game down and starting up again, I did get science points for my items, but FAR from what was advertised at the time. While in orbit around the MUN, my green goop experiment showed +15 for the experiment and +9 for transmitting. The SC-9001 jr showed +75 and +30 respectively in the same orbit. According to these numbers, I should have picked up +39 for the goop and +90 for the science box for an expected total of +129. At arrival after splashdown, I got +62.8 for everything. The numbers aren't adding up anyway I slice it. (Pondering: Hope the Dev's aren't using Common Core to figure the totals... ) I noticed early in playing the game that the expected totals and actuals were off...but now after playing several hours, they're either way off or I'm misreading what I'm seeing on the screen.

If I don't see a reply that "these are known bugs" (and please, show me the place where all the KNOWN bugs are, because it always just takes me to the submit a new bug page.) -- Hearing nothing, I'll run a couple missions and capture some screens and some game logs to post a follow-up.

* She -- I'm surprised that all of the Kerbonaughts look distinctly male and are named with male names. Figure if you haven't already got some flak for that, you might wish to consider getting with a few female Kerbonaughts in the next release. Just sayin.

Cheers,

-Red

[Kesa]

(1) What do you mean by die? Have you any mods installed?

Have you tried to press R to activate the Jetpack?

(2) When you transmit the science, you get all the science point immediately, hence you do not get them a second time when landing. Point showed at the end of the mission are the science points for experiment you store in your craft and did not transmit, rather than the total science of the mission.

(3) Did you tried with the same craft each time? If your engines are to weaks, they cannot counteract the gravity and the atmosphere, hence the loss of speed. Even with the same craft, if you turn to early, the air will be thicker, and you willl go slower.

(note 2) : there is a maximum of science point you can get for each experiment. I don't know the numbers, but let say the first time you do a goop experiment, you can get 75 % of the total science, it will say that you can have 15 points for bringing back that experiment, if you don't get science point for the same experiment in betwee. So if you have two goop, you won't heve 30 points, you will have 15 for the first, then 75% of the remaining (actually, it's more) for the second. It works the same way if you transmit part of the science points before recovering it. You should try your luck in the gameplay and tutorial section, it will be morre clear and detailed that my explanation.

AFAIK, female Kerbal is a planned feature, but with low priority.

- - - Updated - - -

Also the in game tutorial about science is a bit long if you've already jumped in the game, but explains very well how it works

[TriggerAu]

Re the science calculations - I wrote this a while ago, which is still valid - http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/62657

it explains how the transmission/totals/recovery works etc. As Kesa said you will only see science messages on recovery from things that are recovered at that point. The rest you should be able to glean from that post

[Redgum]

(1) What do you mean by die? Have you any mods installed?

Re: Die. I briefly considered posting a very graphical depiction of this - one of my poor Kerbanaut re-entering the atmosphere in only his flimsy spacesuit - but have reconsidered. Needless to say, I don't want to frighten the rest of the team who may stumble upon the photo; his eyes wide, mouth agape, searing flames surrounding his pale green little frame seconds before he turned into a supersonic ash cloud. That kind of 'die.' My kerbonauts were told he's on permanent vacation in the deepest darkest woods of Tasmania. I hope you understand.

Re mods: No mods. Hence my posting to this specific forum.

Have you tried to press R to activate the Jetpack?

D'OH!! This one's on me. . Pesky 'R' key...I'm used to tapping it for reload, not retro rockets!

(2) When you transmit the science, you get all the science point immediately, hence you do not get them a second time when landing. Point showed at the end of the mission are the science points for experiment you store in your craft and did not transmit, rather than the total science of the mission.

When I set up for the next mission, I keep track of the CURRENT Science points. Let's say prior to one mission, they're at 50. I fly the mission. While orbiting the Mun, I run the science lab experiment and transmit what the pop-up states will be 90 points worth of science. I run the green goop experiment and keep (read: I do not transmit) what I am told will be 39 points. When the vehicle is recovered, my TOTAL SCIENCE points SHOULD be 90 + 39 + 50 = 179. Nope. My total science points might get 30 additional and rise up to 80. I've been pretty careful about watching this one because I suspected something was up early on when I first started playing. (Again, NO MODS.)

(3) Did you tried with the same craft each time? If your engines are to weaks, they cannot counteract the gravity and the atmosphere, hence the loss of speed. Even with the same craft, if you turn to early, the air will be thicker, and you willl go slower.

As stated, I did try with the same craft, but then switched to a known good craft - one that always gets my little guys into orbit (unless they see a squirrel, in which case all bets are off) - the known good craft did not reach orbit and experienced the same orbital speed degradation. I tried flying east and then west with the good craft and fell back to earth no matter what I did. After restarting KSP, BOTH craft made it successfully into orbit. Note that I specifically mention following a checklist. That checklist, if followed with either of the two craft, practically guarantees a successful orbit...unless a squirrel or something shiny shows up. It was very odd.

(note 2) : there is a maximum of science point you can get for each experiment. I don't know the numbers, but let say the first time you do a goop experiment, you can get 75 % of the total science, it will say that you can have 15 points for bringing back that experiment, if you don't get science point for the same experiment in betwee. So if you have two goop, you won't heve 30 points, you will have 15 for the first, then 75% of the remaining (actually, it's more) for the second. It works the same way if you transmit part of the science points before recovering it. You should try your luck in the gameplay and tutorial section, it will be morre clear and detailed that my explanation.

No problem. I'm an engineer, so don't have an issue re-reading the docs a couple times. Well, ok. Thirty-six times, but who's keeping track anyway?

AFAIK, female Kerbal is a planned feature, but with low priority.

Ten years ago I wouldn't have mentioned it, but now that I sponsor some engineering interns where I work, I think it's important for you and anyone else wanting to play. From their perspective, young ladies might find it a bit off-putting for them not to be able to readily identify with any of the characters in the game. When I started in engineering in the early 1980's, it was really quite rare to find a female scientist or engineer, especially in electronics and electrical engineering. Since the late 1990's and now in the last decade, that has changed somewhat. So it's a little surprising is all.

- - - Updated - - -

Also the in game tutorial about science is a bit long if you've already jumped in the game, but explains very well how it works

I'll take another look. Thank you for your time and attention.

-Red

[sal_vager]

Redgum, KSP is still in development, and the topic of females has come up ad-infinitum, they will be added but don't expect Squad to drop everything and release a hotpatch a day before new years eve because yet another person has noticed KSP hasn't got them yet.

Now, your other points can be addressed but if this thread turn into another trollfest about female Kerbals it'll be closed.

Have fun and fly safe

[Claw]

2. Any science discovered and then TRANSMITTED does NOT (see note below) show up at the end of the mission. In other words, my career does not get credit for it. The only science values that I've been able to keep are those that I save until a SAFE landing, then recover the craft.

Note: #2 - After shutting the game down and starting up again, I did get science points for my items, but FAR from what was advertised at the time. While in orbit around the MUN, my green goop experiment showed +15 for the experiment and +9 for transmitting. The SC-9001 jr showed +75 and +30 respectively in the same orbit. According to these numbers, I should have picked up +39 for the goop and +90 for the science box for an expected total of +129. At arrival after splashdown, I got +62.8 for everything. The numbers aren't adding up anyway I slice it. (Pondering: Hope the Dev's aren't using Common Core to figure the totals... ) I noticed early in playing the game that the expected totals and actuals were off...but now after playing several hours, they're either way off or I'm misreading what I'm seeing on the screen.

When I set up for the next mission, I keep track of the CURRENT Science points. Let's say prior to one mission, they're at 50. I fly the mission. While orbiting the Mun, I run the science lab experiment and transmit what the pop-up states will be 90 points worth of science. I run the green goop experiment and keep (read: I do not transmit) what I am told will be 39 points. When the vehicle is recovered, my TOTAL SCIENCE points SHOULD be 90 + 39 + 50 = 179. Nope. My total science points might get 30 additional and rise up to 80. I've been pretty careful about watching this one because I suspected something was up early on when I first started playing. (Again, NO MODS.)

Science is one of those things that, if you are going to make an example, you really need to give the exact numbers and situations. There are several complicating factors in calculating science, to include biome, conditions, science experiment, transmission, and the introduction of scientist modifiers. Also, the "science lab" is a very specific part that doesn't actually do any science, so I think you're probably talking about the Science Jr. I'm only bringing this up not to nitpick, but because with science, the details are very important when sorting out your question.

So first, around the Mun in high or low orbit, Science Jr is worth 75 points and Mystery Goo is worth 30. And the more times you do the experiment, the less science you receive each time you do it. However, it won't necessarily tell you that until after you've returned with your science. So if you run two Mystery Goo experiments in high orbit around Mun, it will tell you they are both worth 30 points, even though they really aren't worth +60 total when you recover them. As an easily repeatable example, EVA Surface Samples on the KSC launch pad will give 9 science the first time you recover it, then 2.3 science the second time you recover it. If you do both surface samples on the same flight (before the first is returned) both samples will say "9 science" but you will only be awarded 11.3 for recovering them both (9 + 2.3).

Now, if you transmit either of these, you will NOT get that many science points. There are only a few experiments that transmit for full value (and they are the "report" kind of experiments). Any "transmit" numbers you see (such as the +9 and the +30 that you listed) will be all that you get, but you get that science immediately (you don't have to wait until the craft returns). Additionally, any science you transmit will not show up in the recovery dialogue. Also, any science data you transmit also becomes unrecoverable unless you run the experiment again. So you can't take a single Goo container experiment, transmit the results for some science, then recover it for the rest. (Goo is another special case, because you can only run it once "for keeps" without cleaning.)

There is even more to science than this, but I didn't want to create a giant wall of text about how science labs interact with sci jr and mystery goo. Plus there are ways to pull and store science in different places. Some experiments you can run, transmit, run again, then store to collect even more points. Some experiments (like mystery goo and sci jr) can only be done one time "for keeps" before the part becomes unusable (unless cleaned by a science lab).

Hopefully that clears some of it up, though I'm sure it also opened more questions.

3. Noticed just tonight that after several successful missions, attempting to fly the Stayputnik into orbit failed twice, the third time I went by the numbers (I use a checklist for my launch platforms when I'm trying to do something more precise) and it still failed. Why? Because it seems that Kerbal stopped rotating. Flying east, my orbit speed continually dropped. I tried a fourth time to fly west and got the same degrading effect -- a slowing down instead of speeding up, despite max throttle. After shutting the game down, it appears to have fixed whatever it was -- I can orbit once again.

It sounds maybe like your engine was blocked. I don't think Kerbin would stop rotating. Either that, or you ran into some other bug that was causing the game to fail. We would need more information, such as log files, screen shots, and .craft files to track down what actually happened. So it might be a "known thing," but it's hard to say what specifically happened in your case.

Welcome to the forums!

Cheers,

~Claw

[Redgum]

Science is one of those things that, if you are going to make an example, you really need to give the exact numbers and situations...

I fully appreciate that. It was late for me and wrote the note much too late to gather the data. My fault, but rest assured, unless I'm beginning to suffer from early-onset dementia (a distinct possibility, since I'm still tinkering with computer games and not out doing real science or engineering) I'm pretty confident there's some hanky-panky going on with the science award values. I don't know about your travels, but my screen shows what each experiment is supposedly worth when you click on the particular experiment, and I'm quite aware of the lessening value of repeat experiments. (Personally, I think these little guys should get at least some ice cream for successfully surviving _anything_ I design...)

Any "transmit" numbers you see (such as the +9 and the +30 that you listed) will be all that you get, but you get that science immediately (you don't have to wait until the craft returns).

Yes, and when transmitted, my TOTAL science points should go up by the advertised amount when I check after the mission ends. They don't. I'll capture some data and some screen shots. Seems like it might be connected with the action of transmitting ONE experiment but not the other.

It sounds maybe like your engine was blocked. I don't think Kerbin would stop rotating. Either that, or you ran into some other bug that was causing the game to fail. We would need more information, such as log files, screen shots, and .craft files to track down what actually happened. So it might be a "known thing," but it's hard to say what specifically happened in your case.

It was very odd. I was **VERY** careful the last couple of launches to scrutinize every last angle and dangle. At first I wondered if there is/was something about the Stayputnik itself that I was missing - perhaps some extra-relativistic property that made its mass square directly proportionally to the distance from Kerbal. *Shrug.* Closed the game down, restarted and it was like nothing ever happened. Somewhere, I suspect, is some evil Kerbalnaut laughing his green arse off behind a locker full of green goop.

Welcome to the forums!

Thanks - good to see and be a part of an active community!

but if this thread turn into another trollfest about female Kerbals it'll be closed.

Nah, not looking to become another denizen of JR. Tolkein's imagination. Just trying to gently point something out. Give an old guy a break already.

Regards,

-Red

[Claw]

Personally, I think these little guys should get at least some ice cream for successfully surviving _anything_ I design...

Indeed. And I can't guarantee that there isn't some hanky-panky going on, because there certainly isn't a shortage of that in this game.

Yes, and when transmitted, my TOTAL science points should go up by the advertised amount when I check after the mission ends.

No, that's not quite right. When you transmit science, your total science points should go up immediately. Only experiments done and recovered (but never transmitted) will show up at the mission summary screen, and will be applied at that time.

Somewhere, I suspect, is some evil Kerbalnaut laughing his green arse off behind a locker full of green goop.

Again, with the hanky-panky. I don't disbelieve you, based on all the stuffs I've seen in this game. What I am saying is that it's hard to give a real answer without pictures, etal. (Because of all the stuffs that can happen in this game.)

Nah, not looking to become another denizen of JR. Tolkein's imagination. Just trying to gently point something out.

No worries. Female kerbals come up from time to time, and the subject tends to cause a lot of waves. Sal was trying to ensure this thread didn't go the same way.

Cheers!

~Claw

[Redgum]

No, that's not quite right. When you transmit science, your total science points should go up immediately. Only experiments done and recovered (but never transmitted) will show up at the mission summary screen, and will be applied at that time.

We're saying the same thing, just differently. Yes, the transmitted science goes into the bank right away. (I only stated that I checked for this AFTER the mission ended is all...) Nonetheless, I figured it out last night.

The trouble begins with my own perceptions of how things work. In some respects, my intimate familiarity with some of these things actually puts me at a disadvantage when it comes to playing with them in a game. You see, I _expect_ them to work the way they actually do in the real world. Ha. My failing here.

The problem is that when you transmit, despite the misleading text in the pop-up, it is only giving you a percentage of the real science value, and NOT as a kind of bonus. It's the opposite! It's as if the data transmit option were created by a mind that only a loan shark could love.

In the real world, real time telemetry is extremely valuable, hence my *impression* that the transmitting of data actually gave you a _bonus_ of x% on top of the actual. BZZZT! Wrong! It's penalizing you for being astute and careful and cognizant of the massive tax-payer burden these programs cost. Poor Kerballians. And there's the rub. Real scientists and engineers in these types of programs will tell you that remote telemetry on manned or unmanned vehicles is somewhat mission critical. One never knows what will happen, so data is collected and almost immediately transmitted back to a ground station. (Like Pine Gap in Alice Springs, NT Australia...) That's just the way it is. Going into the game with this mindset and life experience cost me a WHOLE lot of science points. Argh.

*slaps forehead repeatedly*

So the mystery of the missing science points is now solved. It's not a bug, just an unfortunate feature. It does make perfect sense from a game perspective; encourage the player to return everything safely. *Shucks* And here I thought it was great fun to practice plotting my re-entry trajectory right over the space center and jettison my 'garbage' prior to opening the parachute.

I'd just make one remark for the "Lieutenant general chimpanzee with Raybans" developers:

Change the color bar of the Transmit Data option to something like a proportionate shade of red or amber when it's going to be less than 100% point value. The confusion here is also compounded when you use the science lab and it actually gives you the advertised bonus for "transmitting."

Otherwise, great game. Loads of fun..and cool logo, btw.

Cheers and Happy New Year,

-Red