[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[Demiko]

Can I actually use SETI-Contracts and SETI-TechTree without other parts mods? There seems to be many science nodes which give nothing.

[Yemo]

Can I actually use SETI-Contracts and SETI-TechTree without other parts mods? There seems to be many science nodes which give nothing.

The empty nodes are "feature" of KSP 1.0.x tech tree modding.

You can use it without any part mods, but of course part mods improve gameplay. I would recommend the picture next to the download in the OP, where some are listed. At least VenStockRevamp fills some obvious holes in the stock catlog and K2 Command pod offers a 2 kerbal pod.

[Olsson]

There's a compatability issue between the mods Vens Stock Part Revamp mod and RealChute.

The revamp breaks all parachutes if Realchute is installed. They do no behave correctly, for example, placing one on the top my craft that would reach a straight 100km altitude did not even reach 12km when I launched it with a parachute part.

[kcs123]

The KAX 2-bladed prop was adjusted for in the last SETIctt update (just noticed it before I wanted to release the update and inlcuded it).

Since KAX is alread in, Firespitter is a low priority.

Do you know if Aviation Lights finally made the color adjustable instead of offering 10 different parts? That was my biggest issue with it. At the moment I use the small ligth from StationPartsExpansion.

That will force me to install KAX as soon as possible, making some compromise to disable other mods to make some room for KAX parts.

Aviation Lights are still dispesed trough different parts, but they don't conume RAM so much - small parts with small textures. Only problem with them is that you need to manualy add toggle trough action groups. They could also use separate filter in part list, those general "utility" tab is overhelmed with parts from various mods. other than that, I didn't found any issues with them.

All those parts are listed in Electrics 90 science tree nod, there is no need for special attention for them, that nod is not too early in tree and not too late.

Some new grouping in filters could be made, like new landing gear group, lights group and cargo bay group. But that is out of scope for this mod since everyone can use advanced stock filter.

[Yemo]

There's a compatability issue between the mods Vens Stock Part Revamp mod and RealChute.

The revamp breaks all parachutes if Realchute is installed. They do no behave correctly, for example, placing one on the top my craft that would reach a straight 100km altitude did not even reach 12km when I launched it with a parachute part.

Hm, might be just RealChutes?

I remember RealChutes having really heavy casings (which I removed in the BalanceMod), which made them pretty bad for probes.

Though I did not test Vens and RealChutes together in 1.0.2 yet.

That will force me to install KAX as soon as possible, making some compromise to disable other mods to make some room for KAX parts.

Aviation Lights are still dispesed trough different parts, but they don't conume RAM so much - small parts with small textures. Only problem with them is that you need to manualy add toggle trough action groups. They could also use separate filter in part list, those general "utility" tab is overhelmed with parts from various mods. other than that, I didn't found any issues with them.

All those parts are listed in Electrics 90 science tree nod, there is no need for special attention for them, that nod is not too early in tree and not too late.

Some new grouping in filters could be made, like new landing gear group, lights group and cargo bay group. But that is out of scope for this mod since everyone can use advanced stock filter.

In 0.90 I used KAX mainly for early and mid game and then replaced it with a late game part mod, for resources or base building, which were useless at the start.

[Olsson]

Hm, might be just RealChutes?

I remember RealChutes having really heavy casings (which I removed in the BalanceMod), which made them pretty bad for probes.

Though I did not test Vens and RealChutes together in 1.0.2 yet.

No, it applies to all parachutes even stock ones as long as RealChute is installed.

I tested it myself with the mk16 parachute.

[Yemo]

No, it applies to all parachutes even stock ones as long as RealChute is installed.

I tested it myself with the mk16 parachute.

Yes, that is what I meant. It is RealChutes which introduces case masses regardless of VenStockRevamp, as far as I know. And because case masses are fixed, they are worse the smaller the contained chute is.

[Shurikeeen]

There appears to be lots of empty nodes on the SETI CTT

[Olsson]

I was forced to uninstall Realchute since it doesn't work with Vens Stockpart Revamp.

After that Vens Stockpart Revamp didn't seem to work well with parachutes at all, as they failed to deploy.

So I uninstalled that too and instead installed RealChute which reset all my contracts but not my career mode state. It wasn't a huge loss as it was only 3 contracts.

Might be worth looking into.

[kcs123]

In 0.90 I used KAX mainly for early and mid game and then replaced it with a late game part mod, for resources or base building, which were useless at the start.

Feeling the same way. KAX is very good mod for someone who wants to build real life plane replicas. But when comes to gamebalance/tech progression they were good only for early to mid game. As soon as you discover more efficient jets they will become obsolete.

Things that i like about KAX however is those propeler engines. Not a big deal, but it adds slightly to immersion of historical flight evolution. So instead of that scaled down jet engines it is more immersive to use some propeler engine instead. Move that small jet ,that is still usefull for other purposes, slightly higher in tech tree.

I understand that this makes things slightly complicated to organize tech tree for people that don't want to use whole KAX mod. Afterall, some kind of engine is needed for early planes to be able to build them at all early in tech tree. Idea is to use only one or two engines from KAX mod (radial mounted variant poped up that could be needed) along with SETIctt if Keptin alows it that will not add too much on parts list. MM should be able to detect if full KAX mod is installed and override SETIctt variant if someone use full KAX mod. Similar as Antenna mod do with stock parts.

That leads me to another problem detected with Antenna range mod. That mod overrides stock antenna with their own variant(probably different part name). So SETIctt no longer recognize built in antenna in probe cores. Probably some additional chech is needed in MM config if Antenna range mod is installed to integrate different kind of communication antenna in probe core. If you going to do this at all, some range reduction could be made as suggested earlier.

Other than that, I'm realy enjoy how career gameplay is going on along with SETIctt.

Above suggestions are just that, suggestions, do whatever pleases you to do with this mod.

Cheers.

[hbkmog]

I have been playing with SETI for some time and here's one suggestion I'd like to make,

In early games, earning science feels quite grindy mostly due to the contract. The tech tree allows early airplane and rover but there are basically no contract with them. Most of the visual survey contracts are high altitude(also one of my complains about the stock contract) which is not possible with the early airplane. Then rover serves no purpose as there are no contract related to them.

Because you cannot do manned mission in the beginning, the fastest way to accumulate science only lies in tests which is a chore and grindy. Especially when paired with RemoteTech mod, it's almost impossible to set up a Kerbin comsat network without manned mission, which greatly limits the usage of probes due to lack of linkage to KSC. So in the early game, it's kind of like a catch 22 with RemoteTech or SCANsat. You need manned mission to set up the comsat network, then SCANSat. But the fastest and most interesting way to gain science to do unmanned orbital, suborbital probe missions which is not possible without comsat network.

[kcs123]

In early games, earning science feels quite grindy mostly due to the contract. The tech tree allows early airplane and rover but there are basically no contract with them. Most of the visual survey contracts are high altitude(also one of my complains about the stock contract) which is not possible with the early airplane. Then rover serves no purpose as there are no contract related to them.

Actualy it is quite possible to earn science even without contracts with simple plane made from most basic available parts and it require on 1-3 flights that will alow you to build better rockets.

It is quite possible to get enough science even without contracts to unlock maned cockpit that will alow you to establish satellite network.

And I got some nice contracts for ground surveliance (temperature/pressure and similar logs) that will give some money in pockets too, besides additional science/reputation.

Perhaps you didn't unlock enough parts for those contracts or your reputation is too low. Also there is "hidden" contracts that gives you reputation/money whenever you set new record in speed/altitude/distance.

I will post craft example with some pictures for early gameplay with planes and roveres.

[hbkmog]

Actualy it is quite possible to earn science even without contracts with simple plane made from most basic available parts and it require on 1-3 flights that will alow you to build better rockets.

It is quite possible to get enough science even without contracts to unlock maned cockpit that will alow you to establish satellite network.

And I got some nice contracts for ground surveliance (temperature/pressure and similar logs) that will give some money in pockets too, besides additional science/reputation.

Perhaps you didn't unlock enough parts for those contracts or your reputation is too low. Also there is "hidden" contracts that gives you reputation/money whenever you set new record in speed/altitude/distance.

I will post craft example with some pictures for early gameplay with planes and roveres.

Most of the contracts I have are part testing and tourists(not possible before manned flight) and high altitude visual survey. Other contracts are remotetech and Scansat which are also not possible at the moment.

Edited May 18, 2015 by hbkmog

[Olsson]

Update on the incompatibility issue between Vens stockpart Revamp and RealChute.

They are indeed incompatible and parachutes do not work correctly with both of them installed.

I also learned that there is an incompatibility between Vens stockpart Revamp and Deadly ReEntry Continued.

With both of these installed parachutes will not work either.

[kcs123]

Here is example how to build simple and effective plane. As I said, you can grind a lot of science even without proper contracts.

And this plane performs well with FAR.

SETIctt Science planes - craft files

There is three variations of same craft. All of them use only 30 parts - maximum allowed for Level one SPH.

Those are build from early available parts in career mode, based on SETIctt mod. You will also need DMagic orbital science mod for all those nice scientific stuff. Click on image for gallery.

Besides grinding science, plane is useful to train your Kerbonauts, each can earn at least 1Xp from flights. Probably couple more fulfilling contracts ore establishing new records in speed/distance travel, altitude reached.

[Yemo]

There appears to be lots of empty nodes on the SETI CTT

It is a "feature" of KSP 1.0.x tech tree modding . With 0.90 TechManager, useless nodes could be hidden, but that option is no longer available.

Feeling the same way. KAX is very good mod for someone who wants to build real life plane replicas. But when comes to gamebalance/tech progression they were good only for early to mid game. As soon as you discover more efficient jets they will become obsolete.

Things that i like about KAX however is those propeler engines. Not a big deal, but it adds slightly to immersion of historical flight evolution. So instead of that scaled down jet engines it is more immersive to use some propeler engine instead. Move that small jet ,that is still usefull for other purposes, slightly higher in tech tree.

I understand that this makes things slightly complicated to organize tech tree for people that don't want to use whole KAX mod. Afterall, some kind of engine is needed for early planes to be able to build them at all early in tech tree. Idea is to use only one or two engines from KAX mod (radial mounted variant poped up that could be needed) along with SETIctt if Keptin alows it that will not add too much on parts list. MM should be able to detect if full KAX mod is installed and override SETIctt variant if someone use full KAX mod. Similar as Antenna mod do with stock parts.

That leads me to another problem detected with Antenna range mod. That mod overrides stock antenna with their own variant(probably different part name). So SETIctt no longer recognize built in antenna in probe cores. Probably some additional chech is needed in MM config if Antenna range mod is installed to integrate different kind of communication antenna in probe core. If you going to do this at all, some range reduction could be made as suggested earlier.

Other than that, I'm realy enjoy how career gameplay is going on along with SETIctt.

Above suggestions are just that, suggestions, do whatever pleases you to do with this mod.

Cheers.

I plan to rebalance the 0.625m jet as was done in the old SETI-BalanceMod, to Mach 0.95 design speed.

Including prop engines into the download is out of scope, because it would also require firespitter and would result in a whole tail of dependencies/compatibility and support issues.

I want to leave it to the players, whether they want prop engines. Historically early jets were around at that timeframe anyway.

Oh, and about KAX usefulness, keep in mind that the electric prop only requires atmosphere, but no air. Thus it works on Duna and Eve as well!

I will try to work on the AntennaRange compatibility, most likely with some adjustments to make it feasible for SETIcontracts progression as well.

I have been playing with SETI for some time and here's one suggestion I'd like to make,

In early games, earning science feels quite grindy mostly due to the contract. The tech tree allows early airplane and rover but there are basically no contract with them. Most of the visual survey contracts are high altitude(also one of my complains about the stock contract) which is not possible with the early airplane. Then rover serves no purpose as there are no contract related to them.

Because you cannot do manned mission in the beginning, the fastest way to accumulate science only lies in tests which is a chore and grindy. Especially when paired with RemoteTech mod, it's almost impossible to set up a Kerbin comsat network without manned mission, which greatly limits the usage of probes due to lack of linkage to KSC. So in the early game, it's kind of like a catch 22 with RemoteTech or SCANsat. You need manned mission to set up the comsat network, then SCANSat. But the fastest and most interesting way to gain science to do unmanned orbital, suborbital probe missions which is not possible without comsat network.

SETI was formerly balanced to be played without any science rewards from contracts. Like in real life, not every scientifically interesting mission is actually funded, but there is always the option to do them anyway, using funds from other missions.

And kerbin lander probes are cheap, especially when dropped from an airplane (but stay in physics range until the probe has landed with the parachute).

This is a quick and dirty 20km altitude recon plane, having spent only 4 science for the earlyAviation node (with KAX).

Since I did not even use tweakscale (which is highly recommended to overcome many stock shortcomings), it is ugly, but it works with the right flight path.

Especially compared to the SETI AdvanedJet from the old BalanceMod:

I never did test contracts within Kerbin atmo, since I find them annoying.

For RemoteTech, a FuelCell powered antenna comsat can be built for 60 science (all 4 and 16 science nodes), solar powered dish comsats for kerbin stationionary orbit can be built for 105 science (scienceTech).

Which can be easily obtained using the most accessible Kerbin biomes (launchpad, grassland, splashed, desert, mountains?, flying low, flying high, lowspace, highspace) with the available stock science experiments (telemetry, thermo, baro, accelero, mysterygoo, crewreport, evareport, surfacesample).

I never used manned missions to set up a RemoteTech network. The most important part is the first comsat.

For an early comsat network, you can just launch a series of LKO sats, after all every sat only requires probe core, a solar panel/fuelcell with fuel and a communotron-16.

If you want to wait for the 105 science you have the option to start with a Kerbin Stationionary comsat. Just make sure you aim your first comsat at a KSO position ahead of the KSC, eg about 60° ahead in case you plan a 3 sat KSO network. One KSO comsat is enough for Mun and Minmus missions with good timing, for more security a second one 60° behind KSC should be sufficient to provide permanent coverage of the Mun SoI.

Actualy it is quite possible to earn science even without contracts with simple plane made from most basic available parts and it require on 1-3 flights that will alow you to build better rockets.

It is quite possible to get enough science even without contracts to unlock manned cockpit that will alow you to establish satellite network.

And I got some nice contracts for ground surveliance (temperature/pressure and similar logs) that will give some money in pockets too, besides additional science/reputation.

Perhaps you didn't unlock enough parts for those contracts or your reputation is too low. Also there is "hidden" contracts that gives you reputation/money whenever you set new record in speed/altitude/distance.

I will post craft example with some pictures for early gameplay with planes and roveres.

Well, with SETIcontracts, I had to remove the hidden record contracts, as they were just too imbalanced in terms of rewards.

Most of the contracts I have are part testing and tourists(not possible before manned flight) and high altitude visual survey. Other contracts are remotetech and Scansat which are also not possible at the moment.

You can simply strap a rocket booster to a plane to reach altitude as shown above, especially the hybrid one.

Update on the incompatibility issue between Vens stockpart Revamp and RealChute.

They are indeed incompatible and parachutes do not work correctly with both of them installed.

I also learned that there is an incompatibility between Vens stockpart Revamp and Deadly ReEntry Continued.

With both of these installed parachutes will not work either.

Hm, will have to investigate. Or wait until they figure out their compatibility issues between them. But I ll keep an eye open, thank you for the heads up!

Here is example how to build simple and effective plane. As I said, you can grind a lot of science even without proper contracts.

And this plane performs well with FAR.

SETIctt Science planes - craft files

There is three variations of same craft. All of them use only 30 parts - maximum allowed for Level one SPH.

Those are build from early available parts in career mode, based on SETIctt mod. You will also need DMagic orbital science mod for all those nice scientific stuff. Click on image for gallery.

http://i.imgur.com/9APoXWL.png

Besides grinding science, plane is useful to train your Kerbonauts, each can earn at least 1Xp from flights. Probably couple more fulfilling contracts ore establishing new records in speed/distance travel, altitude reached.

Yep, I highly recommend DMagic. Although you only get the magnetometer early on, it really offers variety and opportunities, especially considering the vastly expanded tech tree.

[hbkmog]

Here is example how to build simple and effective plane. As I said, you can grind a lot of science even without proper contracts.

And this plane performs well with FAR.

SETIctt Science planes - craft files

There is three variations of same craft. All of them use only 30 parts - maximum allowed for Level one SPH.

Those are build from early available parts in career mode, based on SETIctt mod. You will also need DMagic orbital science mod for all those nice scientific stuff. Click on image for gallery.

http://i.imgur.com/9APoXWL.png

Besides grinding science, plane is useful to train your Kerbonauts, each can earn at least 1Xp from flights. Probably couple more fulfilling contracts ore establishing new records in speed/distance travel, altitude reached.

Yeah I tried to do different science tests at different biomes but it gets kind of tedious. :/ Also the science return isn't all that great compared to vanilla game.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for the reply yeah I do have a working airplane even though I always try not to put a rocket booster on it because it just feels unrealistic and ugly. So I guess I really have to do that different biomes science experiments to get science then. I just did a rover run on KSC and got some science from all facilities from KSC.

It is a "feature" of KSP 1.0.x tech tree modding . With 0.90 TechManager, useless nodes could be hidden, but that option is no longer available.

I plan to rebalance the 0.625m jet as was done in the old SETI-BalanceMod, to Mach 0.95 design speed.

Including prop engines into the download is out of scope, because it would also require firespitter and would result in a whole tail of dependencies/compatibility and support issues.

I want to leave it to the players, whether they want prop engines. Historically early jets were around at that timeframe anyway.

Oh, and about KAX usefulness, keep in mind that the electric prop only requires atmosphere, but no air. Thus it works on Duna and Eve as well!

I will try to work on the AntennaRange compatibility, most likely with some adjustments to make it feasible for SETIcontracts progression as well.

SETI was formerly balanced to be played without any science rewards from contracts. Like in real life, not every scientifically interesting mission is actually funded, but there is always the option to do them anyway, using funds from other missions.

And kerbin lander probes are cheap, especially when dropped from an airplane (but stay in physics range until the probe has landed with the parachute).

This is a quick and dirty 20km altitude recon plane, having spent only 4 science for the earlyAviation node (with KAX).

Since I did not even use tweakscale (which is highly recommended to overcome many stock shortcomings), it is ugly, but it works with the right flight path.

http://i.imgur.com/kKLKqiI.png

Especially compared to the SETI AdvanedJet from the old BalanceMod:

http://i.imgur.com/AaboA2R.png

I never did test contracts within Kerbin atmo, since I find them annoying.

For RemoteTech, a FuelCell powered antenna comsat can be built for 60 science (all 4 and 16 science nodes), solar powered dish comsats for kerbin stationionary orbit can be built for 105 science (scienceTech).

Which can be easily obtained using the most accessible Kerbin biomes (launchpad, grassland, splashed, desert, mountains?, flying low, flying high, lowspace, highspace) with the available stock science experiments (telemetry, thermo, baro, accelero, mysterygoo, crewreport, evareport, surfacesample).

I never used manned missions to set up a RemoteTech network. The most important part is the first comsat.

For an early comsat network, you can just launch a series of LKO sats, after all every sat only requires probe core, a solar panel/fuelcell with fuel and a communotron-16.

If you want to wait for the 105 science you have the option to start with a Kerbin Stationionary comsat. Just make sure you aim your first comsat at a KSO position ahead of the KSC, eg about 60° ahead in case you plan a 3 sat KSO network. One KSO comsat is enough for Mun and Minmus missions with good timing, for more security a second one 60° behind KSC should be sufficient to provide permanent coverage of the Mun SoI.

Well, with SETIcontracts, I had to remove the hidden record contracts, as they were just too imbalanced in terms of rewards.

You can simply strap a rocket booster to a plane to reach altitude as shown above, especially the hybrid one.

Hm, will have to investigate. Or wait until they figure out their compatibility issues between them. But I ll keep an eye open, thank you for the heads up!

Yep, I highly recommend DMagic. Although you only get the magnetometer early on, it really offers variety and opportunities, especially considering the vastly expanded tech tree.

[sherkaner]

Yep, I highly recommend DMagic. Although you only get the magnetometer early on, it really offers variety and opportunities, especially considering the vastly expanded tech tree.

Wow, DMagic looks fantastic, I had totally missed it. I can't wait to play that along with a SETI update that pulls in Antenna Range (not to mention USI life support). The jet engine rebalance sounds good for early game as well. I really like the attention you're paying to having the player go through more early game survey and atmospheric stuff. I tend to think that even for a newbie, this would give them a lot more experience with the game, how the science system works, and train up pilots before throwing them into complexities of reaching orbit and maneuvering there. In any case, it all just sounds fun to me.

[kcs123]

I didn't do much of caree gameplay in 0.90, I was mostly messed up with sandbox game, didn't have much time for that either. So I gave all those stock contracts a try, mostly because I didn't play any of fineprint contracts in earlier release either.

Antenna range update. I was able to send data from Mk1 cockpit without problems. However probe didn't worked with "require connection to control" option turned on for Antenna range.

I need to double check if I can send some data without extra Antenna on craft. Sorry if I missinformed you, but something is looked strange on this.

Like i said, you don't need to do all those surveliance contracts, but trip around KSC with some science stuff attached to craft will give you just enough science for better rocket building.

EDIT:

Just tested again. With option "require connection to control probe" turned on in Antenna range mod, you can't control probe. But if that option is turned off then you can control probe and transmit data as usuall. Didn't have chance to test actual control range for probe, it is next thing on to do list.

Edited May 18, 2015 by kcs123

[SpaceSmith]

How in the heck do you install just the contracts part of the mod?? I was very intrigued by the actually good contract progression and logical progression, unlock stock which can sometimes get really stupid... I tried installing it and I couldn't get it to work at all?

[Hasegawa]

How in the heck do you install just the contracts part of the mod?? I was very intrigued by the actually good contract progression and logical progression, unlock stock which can sometimes get really stupid... I tried installing it and I couldn't get it to work at all?

SETI-Contracts requires Contract Configurator. Is Contract Configurator installed correctly?

[SpaceSmith]

I have it now, didn't see it required it earlier.

[Rum_Royal]

I'm not seeing the LV-N Nerv anywhere on the tech tree. Am i blind? checked nuclear propulsion.

[Yemo]

I didn't do much of caree gameplay in 0.90, I was mostly messed up with sandbox game, didn't have much time for that either. So I gave all those stock contracts a try, mostly because I didn't play any of fineprint contracts in earlier release either.

Antenna range update. I was able to send data from Mk1 cockpit without problems. However probe didn't worked with "require connection to control" option turned on for Antenna range.

I need to double check if I can send some data without extra Antenna on craft. Sorry if I missinformed you, but something is looked strange on this.

Like i said, you don't need to do all those surveliance contracts, but trip around KSC with some science stuff attached to craft will give you just enough science for better rocket building.

EDIT:

Just tested again. With option "require connection to control probe" turned on in Antenna range mod, you can't control probe. But if that option is turned off then you can control probe and transmit data as usuall. Didn't have chance to test actual control range for probe, it is next thing on to do list.

Will try to fix it for Antenna Range with the next update.

I'm not seeing the LV-N Nerv anywhere on the tech tree. Am i blind? checked nuclear propulsion.

It should be in the 2nd nuclear propulsion node, the first one should contain the small, less efficient nuke from VenStockRevamp, if that is installed.

[hbkmog]

One suggestion. Since now Station Science mod has been updated to 1.0 compatible, is it possible to integrate that into SETI? It adds more space station science stuff to do.