The Hobbit : The Battle of Five Armies

[DuoDex]

What did you think of the movie?

Personally, I hated it. I've been a bit spoiled by the LOTR trilogy and reading the Silmarillion, Valaquenta, and, of course, the Hobbit.

My reasons for hating it compounded into a nice, short list.

• Giant worms. No.
  
• There's this thing called "infantry tactics". What you're SUPPOSED to do is have the heavy infantry (dwarves) protecting the archers. You don't have the archers charge the enemy shock troops.
  
• Someone turned off the physics for a couple of Legolas' scenes. Or at least turned them down very, very low.
  
• Fili and Kili died. Also no.
  
• Uhm...there was a huge pile of garbage regarding the Orcs from Mount Gundabad. Angmar at the time was kaput. And if anyone's ever looked at a map of Middle-Earth, you'll notice that Erebor is remarkably far away from Angmar.
  
• Sauron/Nazgul. While I appreciated the revelation of the Necromancer as Sauron, and the visualization of Dol Guldur was great, Galadriel would not have been able to banish Sauron. The fight scene between Elrond and Saruman and the Ringwraiths was also pretty BS.
  
• Glaciers don't crack after being hit a couple of times with a ball and chain.
  
• The destruction of Lake-town wouldn't have happened quite so quickly. Fire doesn't burn very well on water, and the rate of firespread was so high that it have been doing some very energetic jumping at least.
  
• Elves needed to be more OP.
  

If there's anything I've missed, please put it below.

[pxi]

Still haven't seen the third one, but the main issue I had with the hobbit series of films was how they took a book that was smaller than one of the lord of the rings books, and turned it into three films.

God only knows how many films they plan to squeeze out of the silmarillion.

[Ikaneko]

Huh?

I loved it: the giant worms WERE mentioned in the books (twice, in the Two Towers)

The elves are not Just archers, they can be infantry too (see opening scene of the Fellowship)

I have no response..

How so? That was in the book.

It wasn't a glacier, it was a frozen lake.

Orcs remained in Mordor through an entire AGE, I think they'd remain in Gundabad for as long...

[DuoDex]

Huh?

I loved it: the giant worms WERE mentioned in the books (twice, in the Two Towers)

The elves are not Just archers, they can be infantry too (see opening scene of the Fellowship)

I have no response..

How so? That was in the book.

It wasn't a glacier, it was a frozen lake.

Orcs remained in Mordor through an entire AGE, I think they'd remain in Gundabad for as long...

Do tell about the giant worms. "Things that gnaw the earth" will not be accepted. Those were invented by Tolkien to give Middle-Earth a bit of mystery.

If you take a look at the composition of the elven army, it seems to be ~90% archers.

Oops. Fili and Kili did die. I should reread the book.

I'll take it as "a frozen lake" at face value, but that whole scene was still a bit over the top. If a lake's ice can take a couple dozen Orcs on it at a time, it can probably handle a few blows with a ball and chain.

"Orcs remained in Mordor through an entire AGE". Not true. They were driven out by Elendil after the Last Alliance and only began to return after the Barad-Dur was rebuilt. I'll agree that there probably were a few Orcs in Angmar, but I doubt that there would be enough for such a large army. Angmar was broken after the Witch-King fell.

As you can probably tell from reading this, I read waaaaaaaaaaaaayy too much LOTR.

[Jouni]

Sauron/Nazgul. While I appreciated the revelation of the Necromancer as Sauron, and the visualization of Dol Guldur was great, Galadriel would not have been able to banish Sauron. The fight scene between Elrond and Saruman and the Ringwraiths was also pretty BS.

I don't know how it was portrayed in the movie, but Galadriel was definitely the one who had the strength to oppose Sauron. She wasn't a young weakling like Elrond, or a deliberately weakened Maia like Gandalf and Saruman, but one of the last elves of the royal houses from Valinor.

Besides, Sauron withdrew intentionally, as he was ready to establish his true base of power in Mordor.

[DuoDex]

I don't know how it was portrayed in the movie, but Galadriel was definitely the one who had the strength to oppose Sauron. She wasn't a young weakling like Elrond, or a deliberately weakened Maia like Gandalf and Saruman, but one of the last elves of the royal houses from Valinor.

Besides, Sauron withdrew intentionally, as he was ready to establish his true base of power in Mordor.

All right, all right. You do make a good point about her being the most powerful one there, but my point stands. Sauron is a Maia, present at the music of the Ainur, et cetera, et cetera. To him Galadriel is a young weakling. I personally would have preferred it to be shown as Sauron put up a token resistance and then left, and Galadriel knew this.

[Jouni]

All right, all right. You do make a good point about her being the most powerful one there, but my point stands. Sauron is a Maia, present at the music of the Ainur, et cetera, et cetera. To him Galadriel is a young weakling. I personally would have preferred it to be shown as Sauron put up a token resistance and then left, and Galadriel knew this.

In the First Age, Sauron was beaten by the dog of Galadriel's cousin. At that time, Sauron was much stronger than he was in the Third Age, as he had not yet lost much of his power with the Fall of Numenor, with the loss of the One Ring, and by spending millennia trapped in a physical form.

[bdito]

I don't think any physics were broken when Legolas was jumping from falling rock to falling rock. I assume that's the part you're talking about. Since he's an elf he's light as a feather and could easily jump from one to another. You can see him in one of the LOTR movies (I think the first one) walking on top of the snow when everyone else is waist deep in the stuff.

[problemecium]

One word.

One.

SAAAAAAAANDWOOOOOOOOOOOORMSSSS

[DuoDex]

I don't think any physics were broken when Legolas was jumping from falling rock to falling rock. I assume that's the part you're talking about. Since he's an elf he's light as a feather and could easily jump from one to another. You can see him in one of the LOTR movies (I think the first one) walking on top of the snow when everyone else is waist deep in the stuff.

The walking on the snow bit was in the book. It's not broken physics to be very light. It is broken physics to be able to push off something that's going down.

[bdito]

The walking on the snow bit was in the book. It's not broken physics to be very light. It is broken physics to be able to push off something that's going down.

But jumping off something is relative. It's direction doesn't really matter. So even if it's falling downwards he can still jump upwards depending on the force he applied to it and his weight relative to it. Besides, those damn elves always have some tricks up their sleeves. You never know what they're capable of

Edited January 5, 2015 by bdito

[DuoDex]

In the First Age, Sauron was beaten by the dog of Galadriel's cousin. At that time, Sauron was much stronger than he was in the Third Age, as he had not yet lost much of his power with the Fall of Numenor, with the loss of the One Ring, and by spending millennia trapped in a physical form.

I see I have found a kindred spirit.

Sauron was beaten by a Valinorean dog. From Orome. I'd also like to point out that if Sauron's power had decayed at this point, so had Galadriel's, even if she was using Nenya. My point is that Maiar are generally stronger than any of the Children of Eru.

[Bill Phil]

As soon as I saw those worms, I was thinking of Dune.

Btw, you can push off falling objects and go up. It's all about momentum. And force, etc.

[xcorps]

I'm really glad I read this thread, now I don't have to consider going to see it in the theatre.

I'd also like to point out that if Sauron's power had decayed at this point, so had Galadriel's, even if she was using Nenya. My point is that Maiar are generally stronger than any of the Children of Eru.

It's kind of moot, because in the text she didn't drive him out of Dol Guldur. Sauron left to Mordor after Gandalf discovered that the Necromancer was not actually a Nazgul, as believed by the Wise. (This was Gandalfs second visit, the one where he got the map and the key from Thrain. Khamul and two other Nazgul were sent to run Dol Goldur.) Dol Guldor was marched by Celeborn (Galadriels husband) after the defeat of Sauron and overcame it. Then Galadriel destroyed the fortress.

[Jouni]

Sauron was beaten by a Valinorean dog. From Orome. I'd also like to point out that if Sauron's power had decayed at this point, so had Galadriel's, even if she was using Nenya. My point is that Maiar are generally stronger than any of the Children of Eru.

Power in Tolkien's works is highly situational. Galadriel who wielded Nenya and ruled Lorien was more powerful than Sauron who was hiding, while Sauron as the Dark Lord would have defeated Lorien's defenses.

In the Second Age, Sauron was defeated three times, even though he had the One Ring. Once he ran away after his armies were beaten, the second time he surrendered without fighting, as his enemies were obviously stronger, and the third time he fought to the bitter end. Most of his power was in the armies he commanded, and defeating the armies weakened him.

In the First Age, Balrogs were evenly matched with lesser elven lords, as the cases of Ecthelion and Glorfindel suggest. Some elves were stronger: it took multiple Balrogs to kill Fëanor, even though the Balrogs were Maiar, while Fëanor was just an elf.

It's kind of moot, because in the text she didn't drive him out of Dol Guldur. Sauron left to Mordor after Gandalf discovered that the Necromancer was not actually a Nazgul, as believed by the Wise. (This was Gandalfs second visit, the one where he got the map and the key from Thrain. Khamul and two other Nazgul were sent to run Dol Goldur.) Dol Guldor was marched by Celeborn (Galadriels husband) after the defeat of Sauron and overcame it. Then Galadriel destroyed the fortress.

In the books, Gandalf discovered the truth about Sauron around a century before the events of The Hobbit. He advocated attacking Dol Guldur, but Saruman opposed. Saruman only changed his mind when he learned that Sauron also knew where Isildur had died and where the One Ring might be. Dol Guldur was attacked and Sauron was driven away, but it's not known whether only the White Council attacked, or were the elven armies involved. The Nazgul reoccupied Dol Guldur a decade later, after Sauron had revealed himself in Mordor.

[DuoDex]

Power in Tolkien's works is highly situational.

This. But I'm diverging too far from the main topic, which was how much the movie sucked.

I think it says something that the movie has Galadriel banish Sauron when nothing of the sort happened in the books.

[xcorps]

This. But I'm diverging too far from the main topic, which was how much the movie sucked.

I think it says something that the movie has Galadriel banish Sauron when nothing of the sort happened in the books.

The same with the Two Towers. 90% of that film was written by someone not Tolkien.

[StrandedonEarth]

I feel like I wandered into an episode of Big Bang Theory....

I look forward to seeing it. I'm not huge on accuracy although I do nitpick when I catch errors in movies. I'm mainly in it for the eye-candy spectacle

[Bill Phil]

Hey, at least it's not Percy Jackson levels of inaccuracy, right?

[xcorps]

I feel like I wandered into an episode of Big Bang Theory....

I look forward to seeing it. I'm not huge on accuracy although I do nitpick when I catch errors in movies. I'm mainly in it for the eye-candy spectacle

ROFLMA, I like that.

The thing is that people who can discuss the intricate details of Tolkien are very passionate about the lore. Not so much the eye candy. My wife rolled her eyes the whole time we watched The Fellowship of the Ring together.

[Cirocco]

Hm... Well I kinda looked at the movie with two different viewpoints. One the one hand there was my inner science/strategy/lore nerd that was screaming about 80-90% of the movie that this **** made no ****ing sense, on the other there was my inner kid that grinned and marveled at the choreography, special effects and overall epicness (especially when enhanced by some pretty damn awesome music scores at times).

Overall I liked it when I saw it, because it managed to again give me that stupid grin on my face that I also got when I first saw the battles at helm's deep and gondor. But sadly, it did go hand in hand with several cringe-moments.

If you're just looking for the epic, bombastic feel of pure awesome battle, you'll definitely like it. If you're bothered by blatant breaking of the laws of physics, tactics and battle strategy that makes absolutely no real-life sense and a playing kinda fast and loose with the source material, you'll hate it.

In short: are you just looking for epic feels and willing to suspend your disbelief? You'll like it. Looking for more? You'll probably hate it.

At the time, I certainly liked it (I think mostly because Guillermo Del Toro's choreography saved it for me) but I'm not sure if I would like it should I watch it again when I'm in more critical mood.

[Nertea]

Forget the "accuracy", the movie fails on a storytelling level first!

[Jon144]

[Aghanim]

Bug: They have the giant worm, why they doesn't use it to drill under the defender and kill them all? Or drill directly into Erebor and bypass all the defenses? Its like they are AFKing and not helping anyone

But I have watched it and it was fun though with boring first half

And of course 1 book expanded into a trilogy is asking for a big trouble, especially when it used to be 1 book 1 movie

Another smaller bug: Good luck have fun with that many gold, when you take them, like everyone wants to do it here, they will see some huge economic disaster happening where gold will massively decrease in value. Basic supply and demand. Of course for some metal it will be a very good thing, like in-fiction mithril, or real life aluminium, titanium or platinum. But gold is kinda useless as far as I know. But this is just me overanalyzing this film in context of science fiction

Edited January 7, 2015 by Aghanim