[1.4.*] [2.5.3] (2018-04-06) UbioZur Welding Ltd. Continued

[Jesusthebird]

22 hours ago, eddiew said:

You need the original because the welded part references the original model and mostly just says "treat these 27 pre-defined things as one physical object". Welding is amazing for saving fps, not really helpful for memory (doesn't eat more memory, but can't be used to reduce it, afaik).

Thats cool...i figured. Would be pretty cool...but i figure it would be a licensing issue if a mod could simply copy part code like that. Perhaps it could be only for parts that have free to use/redistribute licensing

[eddiew]

6 minutes ago, Jesusthebird said:

Thats cool...i figured. Would be pretty cool...but i figure it would be a licensing issue if a mod could simply copy part code like that. Perhaps it could be only for parts that have free to use/redistribute licensing

If it copied the parts you're welding, it would increase memory usage until you deleted the original part, when it would return to exactly the same memory footprint with the way welding currently works... welding is as efficient as welding is going to get, for everything except cleaning up your parts panel in the VAB.

You can't get around needing to have a model and texture for each individual part in a weld - other than by resorting to a 3d modelling program, manually sticking them together and making them a single part, stripping out all the vertices that end up internal - which would create new vertices at the intersections - and then making a new part config for the whole assembly. You might possibly end up with a part that is slightly less than the sum of all its components, but the effort required would be far more than paying for another stick of memory to put in your pc  

[Jesusthebird]

1 hour ago, eddiew said:

If it copied the parts you're welding, it would increase memory usage until you deleted the original part, when it would return to exactly the same memory footprint with the way welding currently works... welding is as efficient as welding is going to get, for everything except cleaning up your parts panel in the VAB.

You can't get around needing to have a model and texture for each individual part in a weld - other than by resorting to a 3d modelling program, manually sticking them together and making them a single part, stripping out all the vertices that end up internal - which would create new vertices at the intersections - and then making a new part config for the whole assembly. You might possibly end up with a part that is slightly less than the sum of all its components, but the effort required would be far more than paying for another stick of memory to put in your pc  

I was thinking situational. Like instances where someone would want a pod and structural fuselage. But never uses them seperatly. If i could copy the parts used and then remove the originals. Could save a little space on ram and part lists....depending on how many welds you use in that way. Again...completly situational. Just thinking out loud here

 

My train of thought for a specific scenario: one a particular rocket design i have ill always put 2 monoprop tanks together. If i were to never use the tanks by themselfs without the doubleup...deleting the original file would save time in looking unless i have it in the quick search mod. Strain on my eyes from looking for it...currently i can use janitor. But id have to deselect a lot of mods and keep it a preset. And lastly...depending on how many welds you make...anywhere from a miniscule foorprint difference..to a large one in resource saving.

 

Its a neat idea i think..but i agree with the amount of work it would take...a whole seperate part pack may be the quicker route

[Jesusthebird]

On 11/6/2017 at 7:28 PM, WuphonsReach said:

Tanks (e.g. batteries, simple mono-prop or LF/Ox tanks) work fine.

However, if all you want is a bigger battery, welding is not the complete answer.  Sometimes, it's better to take an existing part and clone it with Module Manager and add the resources that you want.

Examples:

Here is an 8k battery made out of a pair of 1k batteries and a fuel tank.  The resulting part config file was edited to give me what I wanted.

This, on the other hand, is an example of taking an existing part, cloning it, then adding resources / cost / mass.  It is all done using Module Manager.

Things with fuel switchers / texture switchers do not work well with welding.

Regarding fuel switchers...most tanks have compatibility with b9ps, mft, or ifs. How does that work in regards to those mods? Would the end result part be unable to switch fuel in the vab/sph...even if you used tanks originally capable of it?

[eddiew]

@Jesusthebird just checking; you know you can create custom part groups in the VAB, or search for them by name? Either will very quickly find the monoprop tank you want. There is no memory or performance gain to be had from deleting the original part once you have a welded combo, so we're literally only talking about reducing the number of parts in the list. Your approach requires a lot of effort (and game restarts) to solve a problem that already has two solutions. You may never get your time back  

[Jesusthebird]

3 minutes ago, eddiew said:

@Jesusthebird just checking; you know you can create custom part groups in the VAB, or search for them by name? Either will very quickly find the monoprop tank you want. There is no memory or performance gain to be had from deleting the original part once you have a welded combo, so we're literally only talking about reducing the number of parts in the list. Your approach requires a lot of effort (and game restarts) to solve a problem that already has two solutions. You may never get your time back  

Actually i didnt....lo. Does that come stock or do i gotta get a mod?

[eddiew]

8 minutes ago, Jesusthebird said:

Actually i didnt....lo. Does that come stock or do i gotta get a mod?

Should be stock... there's a bar at the top of the parts list in which you can type to search, and a plus icon on each part that lets you assign it to a custom grouping.

Unless you're on an old version. In which case you're boned.

[Alewx]

On ‎17‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 11:37 PM, eddiew said:

You need the original because the welded part references the original model and mostly just says "treat these 27 pre-defined things as one physical object". Welding is amazing for saving fps, not really helpful for memory (doesn't eat more memory, but can't be used to reduce it, afaik).

With newest Version of Unity and KSP welding is more of a cheat for physics, because it will treat the parts as just a single object, making them more rigid then they normally would be.
FPS is no longer really saved and Memory also not.

On ‎18‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 11:54 PM, Jesusthebird said:

Regarding fuel switchers...most tanks have compatibility with b9ps, mft, or ifs. How does that work in regards to those mods? Would the end result part be unable to switch fuel in the vab/sph...even if you used tanks originally capable of it?

There is a fork of it integrated in welding but it can lose compatibility with newer Version of b9ps ifs or mft.

[eddiew]

13 hours ago, Alewx said:

With newest Version of Unity and KSP welding is more of a cheat for physics, because it will treat the parts as just a single object, making them more rigid then they normally would be.
FPS is no longer really saved and Memory also not.

From experience, welding a large object (say a station ring) and thus simplifying 50 parts down to 1 results in such savings in physics and thermal calculations that it's a very noticeable fps saver. Having a 150 part station and a 150 part ship docking is painful, but when both have welded cores and only mass 50 parts each, that's much more eye friendly  

Also yeah, it lets me make gargantuan tweakscaled monstrosities that don't fall apart on the launchpad  

[Jesusthebird]

Ok, so i welded a few squad strut adapters and a girder together. I can see the part in my part list, and when I click it as my starting part, it shows up. but if I click on it after I load a craft, or select a different root part(like a command pod for example) when I click on my part, its invisible. I get the appropriate sounds when placing and trashing the part, its just invisible..lol. heres the ksp log, and craft file.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AjOhSRn-M-XfjRwR5QCKnUIdovjH

Update: So they actually show up, however they have crazy long radial attach parameters that make it look like theyre floating in midair. they'll snap to nodes fine, but only if I unclick and reclick the part so I actually 'grab it'. this doesnt fix how it attaches radially. hopefully the picture ive updated my onedrive with will help you understand. conveniently enough my game bugged and there is a 'show/hide vessel info'  pretty much where my mouse pointer is supposed to be. made building a nightmare lol

Edited January 7, 2018 by Jesusthebird

[Alewx]

10 hours ago, Jesusthebird said:

Ok, so i welded a few squad strut adapters and a girder together. I can see the part in my part list, and when I click it as my starting part, it shows up. but if I click on it after I load a craft, or select a different root part(like a command pod for example) when I click on my part, its invisible. I get the appropriate sounds when placing and trashing the part, its just invisible..lol. heres the ksp log, and craft file.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AjOhSRn-M-XfjRwR5QCKnUIdovjH

Update: So they actually show up, however they have crazy long radial attach parameters that make it look like theyre floating in midair. they'll snap to nodes fine, but only if I unclick and reclick the part so I actually 'grab it'. this doesnt fix how it attaches radially. hopefully the picture ive updated my onedrive with will help you understand. conveniently enough my game bugged and there is a 'show/hide vessel info'  pretty much where my mouse pointer is supposed to be. made building a nightmare lol

You use some VenStockRevamp parts in it, I have no experience with them, but so far the part itself Looks fine.
It could be that the scale of the Revamp parts with 2 is causing Problem with the SP automatic cylinder collider to scale insalny big, but I don't know it for sure.

You could try the same with completly stock parts and see it it reacts the same, then the collider Generation would be a Problem.
Also I can see you are using EEX so you could bring in the radial attachments manually.

[Jesusthebird]

12 hours ago, Alewx said:

You use some VenStockRevamp parts in it, I have no experience with them, but so far the part itself Looks fine.
It could be that the scale of the Revamp parts with 2 is causing Problem with the SP automatic cylinder collider to scale insalny big, but I don't know it for sure.

You could try the same with completly stock parts and see it it reacts the same, then the collider Generation would be a Problem.
Also I can see you are using EEX so you could bring in the radial attachments manually.

thanks, ill see what I can do with this information.

 

just to make sure what you are thinking. I am using vensstockrevamp mod, but for this part specifically, I am only using squads cubic strut adapters(.625) and a mkiii strut segment. are you saying, try the same without vens textures?

 

update 1: I tried the same part weld with vens still installed but DID NOT scale it up a size beforehand. same results(but personally even if it worked, i find that would be a serious limitation) because not like there are different sized truss(strut) adapters. being able to use tweak scale on a part before welding is pretty important id say.

 

UPDATE 2: removing vens mod and rewelding the parts resolved all issues.

 

so I am going to uninstall vens, and try again.

 

also i know this isnt the spot for it, but as you mentioned it. I dont see a way to manually change the radial attach points with EEX? I see a lot of option, but nothing about symmetry spacing. ill keep looking tho. but I may need some help with that. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Jesusthebird
more information

[Alewx]

18 hours ago, Jesusthebird said:

thanks, ill see what I can do with this information.

 

just to make sure what you are thinking. I am using vensstockrevamp mod, but for this part specifically, I am only using squads cubic strut adapters(.625) and a mkiii strut segment. are you saying, try the same without vens textures?

 

update 1: I tried the same part weld with vens still installed but DID NOT scale it up a size beforehand. same results(but personally even if it worked, i find that would be a serious limitation) because not like there are different sized truss(strut) adapters. being able to use tweak scale on a part before welding is pretty important id say.

 

UPDATE 2: removing vens mod and rewelding the parts resolved all issues.

 

so I am going to uninstall vens, and try again.

 

also i know this isnt the spot for it, but as you mentioned it. I dont see a way to manually change the radial attach points with EEX? I see a lot of option, but nothing about symmetry spacing. ill keep looking tho. but I may need some help with that. 

EEX includes the limits from moving parts around, you can not directly change the collider or the position where parts are radial attached but you can move the parts until it looks pleasing.
Would need to see the real gameobjects in the game of Vens parts to give any more appropriate answers.

[Jesusthebird]

16 hours ago, Alewx said:

EEX includes the limits from moving parts around, you can not directly change the collider or the position where parts are radial attached but you can move the parts until it looks pleasing.
Would need to see the real gameobjects in the game of Vens parts to give any more appropriate answers.

the debug window from EEX, is that what youre looking for? also interestingly enough I welded the same part together when vens was both installed and not installed. when I welded the part with vens installed. the radial spacing is crazy right. when I uninstalled vens, and remade the part(new name and everything), the part works as expected. So. establishing Vens and EEX have a kink to work out it seems? HOWEVER: reinstalling vens..I checked my old part, and lo and behold, it works! with vens installed..but it does still use the stock texture.

Ive uploaded a few more screenshots to my onedrive(see above posts for link)

there is also a weld I made with a few of the streamline fueltank cones, rescaled and vens installed. and it works just fine it would seem as far as that radial attachment problem goes. perhaps its only a structural part thing?

[Alewx]

6 hours ago, Jesusthebird said:

the debug window from EEX, is that what youre looking for? also interestingly enough I welded the same part together when vens was both installed and not installed. when I welded the part with vens installed. the radial spacing is crazy right. when I uninstalled vens, and remade the part(new name and everything), the part works as expected. So. establishing Vens and EEX have a kink to work out it seems? HOWEVER: reinstalling vens..I checked my old part, and lo and behold, it works! with vens installed..but it does still use the stock texture.

Ive uploaded a few more screenshots to my onedrive(see above posts for link)

there is also a weld I made with a few of the streamline fueltank cones, rescaled and vens installed. and it works just fine it would seem as far as that radial attachment problem goes. perhaps its only a structural part thing?

Nope, not the EEX debug window, just that it is useful to work around such extreme radial attachments, because it includes no offsetlimits.

Changing the textures can be done in the partfile of the weldments, but as the part still work when Vens are installed, I believe it is using a patch to exchange parts of the model or the whole thing.
But still now clue, don't play with Vens, I prefer @Porkjet part designs^^ Will have to investigate the MM patches of Vens to know more what is going on there.

[Supergamervictor]

On 4/16/2015 at 6:09 AM, Shadowmage said:

Regarding other 'special' parts; many can be used if special care is taken and/or the config file is edited after the weld is done. E.G. parts that use the FS texture and mesh switches; these -can- be used, but you need to manually edit the config to specify the -single- texture/mesh that should be used. Again, it mostly comes down to what -modules- are present in the parts, and the specific transform names that they use.

Does anyone know the specific way of manually pointing B9 HX models to the right texture/mesh in the cfg files?

[Alewx]

3 hours ago, Supergamervictor said:

Does anyone know the specific way of manually pointing B9 HX models to the right texture/mesh in the cfg files?

sure there is the

MODEL module, which contains the texture part, you just have to Point that at the correct folder.
But does the welded Meshswitch not work correct? you should be able to Keep the preweld selected textures and meshes.

[Supergamervictor]

9 hours ago, Alewx said:

sure there is the

MODEL module, which contains the texture part, you just have to Point that at the correct folder.
But does the welded Meshswitch not work correct? you should be able to Keep the preweld selected textures and meshes.

Abit of context; I'm still in 1.2.2. Here's a clip of the module: 

Quote

MODEL
    {
        model = B9_Aerospace_HX/Parts/Structure_HX/model_hx_size1_universal
        position = 0, 8.146, 2.687
        scale = 1, 1, 1
    }

So I have to add a line 'texture = '? Another question is that HX uses a single texture to map all the subtypes, so how would I point it? Do I make a separate texture for it to point at? I'm trying to get this subtype :

Quote

SUBTYPE
        {
            name = str_a
            title = Structure A
            transform = STR1
        }
 

 

EDIT: The WeldedMeshSwitch module is present in the cfg, but it doesn't seem to work. Does the module only deal with the meshes or are the respective subtype textures included in the process?

Edited January 15, 2018 by Supergamervictor

[Alewx]

4 hours ago, Supergamervictor said:

Abit of context; I'm still in 1.2.2. Here's a clip of the module: 

So I have to add a line 'texture = '? Another question is that HX uses a single texture to map all the subtypes, so how would I point it? Do I make a separate texture for it to point at? I'm trying to get this subtype :

 

EDIT: The WeldedMeshSwitch module is present in the cfg, but it doesn't seem to work. Does the module only deal with the meshes or are the respective subtype textures included in the process?

the meshswitch that I included does deal with the meshes, because most creators change meshes and textures, only texture change within single mesh is rather new to me, and I'm afraid you can not really fix that.

And yes normally that could be fixed with a line 'texture = materialname "folder/subfolder/moresubfolder"'.

[Supergamervictor]

1 hour ago, Alewx said:

the meshswitch that I included does deal with the meshes, because most creators change meshes and textures, only texture change within single mesh is rather new to me, and I'm afraid you can not really fix that.

And yes normally that could be fixed with a line 'texture = materialname "folder/subfolder/moresubfolder"'.

I tried doing this:

Quote

MODEL
    {
        model = B9_Aerospace_HX/Parts/Structure_HX/model_hx_size1_universal
        texture = str_a, B9_Aerospace_HX/Parts/Structure_HX/model_structure_hx
        position = 0, 8.146, 2.687
        scale = 1, 1, 1
    }

Not working. Am I doing it right?

[Alewx]

15 minutes ago, Supergamervictor said:

I tried doing this:

Not working. Am I doing it right?

looks correct, but still it depends on the original part and material; haven't used B9 in long time, so I can not really tell where something is broken.

[Supergamervictor]

3 hours ago, Alewx said:

looks correct, but still it depends on the original part and material; haven't used B9 in long time, so I can not really tell where something is broken.

Strange... the problem seems to be isolated to crafts I've made. I test welded 3 HX Parts and they loaded properly without any modifications needed. Trying to weld other crafts I've made causes the same problem. I did this on a Stock install with B9 and required parts. Here's what the debug console is saying when trying to load the part:

Quote

[ERR 22:34:58.324] Module WeldedMeshSwitch threw during OnStart: UnityEngine.UnityException: Transform child out of bounds
  at (wrapper managed-to-native) UnityEngine.Transform:GetChild (int)
  at UbioWeldingLtd.WeldedMeshSwitch.parseTranseforms () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UbioWeldingLtd.WeldedMeshSwitch.initModule () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at UbioWeldingLtd.WeldedMeshSwitch.OnStart (StartState state) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

Sorry for asking for help for an outdated KSP version, I'm just hoping to get this working for a project of mine.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Supergamervictor

[Alewx]

47 minutes ago, Supergamervictor said:

Strange... the problem seems to be isolated to crafts I've made. I test welded 3 HX Parts and they loaded properly without any modifications needed. Trying to weld other crafts I've made causes the same problem. I did this on a Stock install with B9 and required parts. Here's what the debug console is saying when trying to load the part:

Sorry for asking for help for an outdated KSP version, I'm just hoping to get this working for a project of mine.

Ouh that is an evil exception, I try to access the root object even though the actual object is already the root.
Quite possible that it is already fixed with a newer version. Which version do you use?

[Supergamervictor]

13 hours ago, Alewx said:

Ouh that is an evil exception, I try to access the root object even though the actual object is already the root.
Quite possible that it is already fixed with a newer version. Which version do you use?

I'm using the last 1.2.2 compatible version. It seems to be inconsistent; some parts of the craft weld properly while others fail.

 

EDIT: I tested the 1.3.0 compatible version on KP 1.2.2 and it works on the test install. I'll be testing on my main install. Thanks for the help!

Edited January 16, 2018 by Supergamervictor

[Problemless Mods Wanter]

On 2/1/2017 at 2:35 PM, Helbrecht said:

When I finally figured out how to weld it, now all my parts are colored weirdly and flickering, is it because of interstellar fuel switch? its like they have 12 different color schemes all at once on them.

Anyobody figured out which parts in the CFG to edit for this issue?

Edited March 25, 2018 by Smart Parts Wanter