[1.9-1.10] Throttle Controlled Avionics

[allista]

Hello, I'm having the same problem as Kurtvw, there is no button for TCA in stock toolbar nor in any scene for Blizzy's, however I didn't test for Y working. I was playing in sandbox.

Here's the log from root folder, tell me if it's a wrong one

Could you post the KSP_Data\output_log.txt instead? KSP.log does not contain information about exceptions, which is the most valuable part.

I'm still striving to pin down the cause of this issue.

I can't reproduce it and don't see the reason to it in neither logs nor code

[allista]

p.s. also have the same keybinding issue mentioned a few posts above (Remotetech is also installed).

I feel that I become annoying, but may I see your output_log.txt too?

The log provided by OrtwinS has no errors related to TCA, only many exceptions from other mods. And I don't see how these could affect TCA.

[SwGustav]

I'm blind, I didn't see output_log when I first looked there

Sorry, here it is

Edit: Could it be mods conflicting? I have a fully moded (see mod recommendations) SETI game + some graphical mods.

Edited February 19, 2015 by SwGustav

[allista]

I'm blind, I didn't see output_log when I first looked there

Sorry, here it is

Edit: Could it be mods conflicting? I have a fully moded (see mod recommendations) SETI game + some graphical mods.

It could be. I can't make any definite conclusions, but I see many exceptions connected to the stock AppLauncher form several mods:

• WingProceduralManager from B9
  
• ConnectedLivingSpace
  
• RealChute
  

But for all I know they may be not the cause, but a symptom of something happening with AppLauncher.

In flight there are also exceptions from: Clouds, ScienceAlert, AlternateResourcePanel.

And in editor: ProceduralParts, ActionGroupsExtended.

But I still don't see any exceptions associated with either Toolbar or TCA

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Now, I want to ask two dumbest questions:

First, with key binding change: haven't you, by any chance, accidentally changed keyboard layout in game sometime before you tired to change key binding? I don't even know if Unity would recognize such situation. But I just don't know what else to think.

Second, with Toolbar button: have you tried to enable TCA button in Toolbar's settings?

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I suggest hiding the pitch, yaw, roll, PI variables, 'engine info', 'autotune toggle' and the pick-TCA-key all in an 'advanced' view.

I would leave autotune on the main Gui. I usually adjust steering gain down to make it less responsive to control input. My guess is that most of my designs are overpowered and end up turning on a dime.

Would you agree to the following simple compromise?

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PPS

After quicksave/quickloading TCA doesn't recognize previously limited thrust, thus one of my landers crashed because the engines were limited at ~20%.

PPPS That also counts for undocking, when undocking part of a TCA controlled craft it's engines are still thrust limited.

Undocking. I'll try to invent some workaround, but that's not an easy one: undocking spawns a new vessel...

But could you be more verbose about the first case, so that I could reproduce it?

[Tarheel1999]

Looks good to me.

[SwGustav]

No, I haven't changed any bindings.

And of course I checked settings. That was the first thing I did (I thought mod automatically disabled stock if toolbar detected)

Edit: Gonna try if Y works, also some mod compatibility I have suspicion for

Update: I GOT IT! Not sure yet what exactly, I removed some mods and cleared module manager cache, stay tuned

Update 2: I moved mods back, and the button is still there. So it's MM cache somehow

Edited February 19, 2015 by SwGustav

[allista]

No, I haven't changed any bindings.

And of course I checked settings. That was the first thing I did (I thought mod automatically disabled stock if toolbar detected)

Edit: Gonna try if Y works, also some mod compatibility I have suspicion for

Update: I GOT IT! Not sure yet what exactly, I removed some mods and cleared module manager cache, stay tuned

Update 2: I moved mods back, and the button is still there. So it's MM cache somehow

'Curiouser and curiouser!' cried Alice

The mod indeed disables (or, more precisely, does not enable AppLauncher button) if the Toolbar is present...

[SwGustav]

Something peculiar just happened. I copied the cache back and, well... the button is still there.

Edit: This is shameful , but I am going to assume I missed it in the settings initially. Still kinda refuse to believe, I swear I checked the whole list two or three times. I feel like game is playing a joke on me... Thank you for your help anyway

Edited February 19, 2015 by SwGustav

[allista]

Something peculiar just happened. I copied the cache back and, well... the button is still there.

Edit: This is shameful , but I am going to assume I missed it in the settings initially. Still kinda refuse to believe, I swear I checked the whole list two or three times. I feel like game is playing a joke on me... Thank you for your help anyway

Not at all!

Glad that it works at last!

[sephirotic]

You, sir, has made my day!

There was a very similar mod to this back in version 0.18~0.19 till it brake down on the update to 0.20. It was called "Throttle Steering". In the last 3 years of updates, the mod I most missed broken and not being fixed was that, and here finally you made a new and much better similar Throttle-balance/controller mod with even more advanced features and fine tuning!

Simply astonishing!

Thanks a lot for your mod, my Old Evangelion NERV-VTOL can be resurrected!

PIC Related:

However, as I was trying remake that old design, I encountered a problem: The Mod limits thrusts of ALL engines! Including my main jet engines! In my original design, I configured throttle steering only on the tail stabilizers which was more than enough to stabilize the vessel. Main jet engines I kept vanilla so that I wouldn´t lose thrust and sustain on them. This way this would assure that the main thrust of the jet engines wouldn´t fall bellow 1.0 TWR.

Please, please, please add a feature to select witch engines would be controlled by the TCA mod! Or at least a per-engine setting of a Maximum allowed reduction in the limiter, so that thrust wouldn´t fall too much and make a vessel "fall" due to lack of thrust! This is specially troublesome with Jet engines since the regain on thrust is very slow.

Just to make clear: I read your FAQ and I agree that JET engines shouldn´t be controlled by the TCA mod, but instead of not designing a VTOL with TCA and jet engines, one should only have the option of disabling TCA controll on the jet engiens but allowing on a select of other engines!

This would make your mod the BEST MOD EVER, even better than Ferram's Aerodynamic Fix! Thanks a lot!

[DavidHunter]

FYI, I had the same issue as reported earlier (i.e. TCA doesn't seem to load at all, although the part does appear in the tech tree. That said, the part never appeared in the parts list in the VAB/SPH... is it meant to?).

I also have NavHud installed, which displays the nav ball markers in a HUD. That uses the Y key to toggle the hud on and off.

Changing

<keycode name="TCA_Key">Y</keycode>

in the config.xml file in the TCA files (or the equivalent in the NavHud config) fixes the clash and makes TCA work perfectly.

(I bound it to the P key, if anyone's wondering)

Hope this helps.

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P.S. Great work on the brilliant mod.

[allista]

Just to make clear: I read your FAQ and I agree that JET engines shouldn´t be controlled by the TCA mod, but instead of not designing a VTOL with TCA and jet engines, one should only have the option of disabling TCA controll on the jet engiens but allowing on a select of other engines!

I agree, and as you're not the first who asks this feature, I'll set it as the primary goal of the next release.

Thank you for understanding

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FYI, I had the same issue as reported earlier (i.e. TCA doesn't seem to load at all, although the part does appear in the tech tree. That said, the part never appeared in the parts list in the VAB/SPH... is it meant to?).

The part not appearing in editor is intended: it is a dummy part. The plugin simply checks if it is purchased before enabling itself in a vessel. So that all ships could receive the functionality as soon as it's unlocked and purchased.

I also have NavHud installed, which displays the nav ball markers in a HUD. That uses the Y key to toggle the hud on and off.

Changing

<keycode name="TCA_Key">Y</keycode>

in the config.xml file in the TCA files (or the equivalent in the NavHud config) fixes the clash and makes TCA work perfectly.

And what of the in-game key binding change in the TCA window? Does it work?

[SwGustav]

I know my problem is gone, but I noticed TCA button in map scene, and I can guarantee it was never there before.

So it's not me at least. Moving some folders in and out oiled game "gears" or something..

Edit: "Problem is gone" was an early call. Sometimes button is there, sometimes it isn't. Doesn't seem to depend on anything. Really weird

Edit 2: OH GOD. I found out why the button is missing! IT'S BECAUSE

THE VESSEL LACKS E N G I N E S

I am SO sorry for wasting your time. I'm used to having buttons for other mods always present and part-independent, and I did a lot of testing for other stuff recently where I would launch a single command pod without everything (hence missing button). That's why this took so much time to figure out.

Edited February 21, 2015 by SwGustav

[allista]

I know my problem is gone, but I noticed TCA button in map scene, and I can guarantee it was never there before.

So it's not me at least. Moving some folders in and out oiled game "gears" or something..

Edit: "Problem is gone" was an early call. Sometimes button is there, sometimes it isn't. Doesn't seem to depend on anything. Really weird

Edit 2: OH GOD. I found out why the button is missing! IT'S BECAUSE

THE VESSEL LACKS E N G I N E S

I am SO sorry for wasting your time. I'm used to having buttons for other mods always present and part-independent, and I did a lot of testing for other stuff recently where I would launch a single command pod without everything (hence missing button). That's why this took so much time to figure out.

Oh boy... And I have never mentioned this anywhere?!

The button is indeed appears only when a vessel has engines, lest not clutter the Toolbar or AppLauncher.

But I had to document this feature. So that's totally my fault

I'm so sorry!

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I've added the explanations needed to the main post into Instructions.

Thank you, SwGustav, for your patience.

[The Space Man]

I absolutely love this mod! I can finally do all the KAS vtol winch stuff i always wanted to do with ease

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[AstroRick]

Question! I've always loved the various airship envelopes from Hooligan Labs. While they function under KSP .90 the control panel seems broken, even with the mod being supported by someone else. I am wondering if the altitude controls of this mod will work with Hooligan Labs airship envelopes! Heck... I'll give it a shot. >.>

[allista]

Question! I've always loved the various airship envelopes from Hooligan Labs. While they function under KSP .90 the control panel seems broken, even with the mod being supported by someone else. I am wondering if the altitude controls of this mod will work with Hooligan Labs airship envelopes! Heck... I'll give it a shot. >.>

I don't know anything about these envelopes, so I would be glad if you share your findings!

[evilC]

So glad development has resumed on this mod...

A few observations:

If you have engines all over your craft with TCA enabled, engines which are not required still thrust.

For example, if I have engines pointing up, they still fire, when they are not needed.

I had hoped you could maybe hover at any angle given sufficient thrusters, but apparently not

Also, I am not sure what the deal is with "Kill Horiz Vel", I have seen it cut engines out completely when it achieves a stop, but even then it doesn't seem very effective.

Again, I had hoped that if you placed thrusters appropriately, killing horiz vel would be easy.

I think this mod needs some kind of system to designate engines to be 100% under the control of TCA. If you could have TCA hijack only the VTOL engines, and leave the throttle free for "normal" use, that would be great.

I did some tests with flipping control angle (ie from SPH style horizontal to VAB style vertical) mid-flight and it seemed to cope well.

Finally, it does not seem to work with Vernor engines. any hope of that happening?

[allista]

So glad development has resumed on this mod...

A few observations:

If you have engines all over your craft with TCA enabled, engines which are not required still thrust.

For example, if I have engines pointing up, they still fire, when they are not needed.

I had hoped you could maybe hover at any angle given sufficient thrusters, but apparently not

Also, I am not sure what the deal is with "Kill Horiz Vel", I have seen it cut engines out completely when it achieves a stop, but even then it doesn't seem very effective.

Again, I had hoped that if you placed thrusters appropriately, killing horiz vel would be easy.

I think this mod needs some kind of system to designate engines to be 100% under the control of TCA. If you could have TCA hijack only the VTOL engines, and leave the throttle free for "normal" use, that would be great.

I did some tests with flipping control angle (ie from SPH style horizontal to VAB style vertical) mid-flight and it seemed to cope well.

Finally, it does not seem to work with Vernor engines. any hope of that happening?

Concerning "engines all over your craft" situation, as it comes forward not for the first time, I want to clarify a few things about my view of the mod and of its intended use:

The main job of TCA is to balance the propulsion system of a ship and to help in attitude control. By propulsion system I mean a set of engines that are more-or-less point in the same direction to propel the ship. But if, in contrast, you place engines all over the ship pointing in all directions, then virtually you are trying to build an RCS -- Reaction Control System. But that is a clear misuse, as there are dedicated RCS thrusters and SAS and RCS balancing mods just for that. TCA is not intended to be used as a replacement of RCS. It knows nothing about which engines "are needed" from your point of view, and which are not, because all engines TCA controls are propulsors, they should be firing at all times.

In other words, TCA expects a reasonable VTOL or rocket design. It is absolutely possible, even easy to build some bizarre contraption that cannot be used with TCA. But to what end?

The "Kill Horizontal Velocity" autopilot operates by adjusting ship's attitude so that the total thrust is directed away from horizontal velocity vector, but its angle to the surface normal is relatively small (no more than 45deg) to prevent flipping over.

If you have some problems with its functionality, please, describe them in more detail.

Vernor engine is an RCS thruster, whatever its fuel is. Like solid fuel boosters it has constant thrust and thus cannot be used by TCA in a meaningful way.

Engine's designation system is on its way, but it is not trivial, so I don't know yet when I will be able to release it.

Edited March 5, 2015 by allista

[StrandedonEarth]

This mod is very useful for docking a lander to the side of a tanker and then doing the long burn home

[evilC]

Hi Allista,

Maybe I should clarify my desires for "engines all over".

Imagine a plane style harrier jump jet with a downward facing engine that has a vectoring angle of 45 degrees.

You are coming in to land but the place you wish to land (mountainous) has an inclination of, lets say for arguments sake, 50deg.

You cannot touch all legs down at a flat angle, because if you pitch to 50deg, the engine cannot vector straight down.

But what if you add another engine at a 45deg offset to the first, such that if the first cannot vector enough to point straight down, the second can.

That way, you could land at a 50deg angle without translating.

Similarly, with kill horiz velocity, if you want to kill forward velocity, and there is an engine pointing in that direction, it does not use it (sensibly).

ie in an ideal situation, it would normally not be firing at all, but when you want to kill horiz vel, it fires enough to kill the horiz vel, then cuts.

Now AFAIK this is basically possible at the moment, but it seems that at no point does engine 1 cut out completely and engine 2 take over.

ie with this craft

You cannot kill horiz vel without pitching up, and you cannot pitch up without inducing horiz vel.

I dunno, maybe I am asking for the program to work a slightly different way.

What would be cool would be a mode whereby it only tries to thrust to counteract vertical velocity.

Then, if you enable "kill horiz" mode, it *also* tries to kill horiz vel.

The current pitch of your craft should be irrelevant - it should only use the engines it needs to to counteract the velocity component(s) you asked it to counteract.

Does that make sense?

[evilC]

I did some more playing last night and had some real fun trying to make a harrier jump jet.

The harrier design is interesting because it uses one powerplant for hovering and forward flight - in the actual plane, it does this by vectoring the thrust using nozzles, I elected to emulate this by mounting engines centrally and using IR rotatrons to rotate them mid flight.

The craft was well balanced, and I had a bunch of reaction wheels, so it was hard to tell how well TCA coped, but it was certainly suprisingly effecticve - you could angle the engines at 45deg and pick up horiz speed until the wings took over - VTOL / STVL was definitely possible. I tried similar ideas using older versions of TCA and it did not go so well, so I certainly think there is much promise in the new version.

One thing that irks me though is that it seems that none of KSP's jets can change thrust levels fast enough to be of much use with multi-point VTOLs. This would be something which I would love to see in TCA - the ability to split the thrust between multiple engine types. If you could have jets or rotors providing a constant 90% of the thrust required to hover, then use rocket engines to supplement and provide attitude control, that would be really cool.

[CSVoltage]

Wonderfull mod. I'm glad someone took up this mod. A suggestion: the ability to exclude an engine from the TCA control. I have a VTOL SSTO that uses a Interstellar Nuclear jet for main power. I have radial LFO rockets around it for attitude control. It would be nice to be able to throttle the jet myself while letting TCA w/ the LFO engines stabalize my craft.

[allista]

Does that make sense?

It does.

But you're requesting to solve a very different mathematical problem. Currently TCA solves the following equation:

F(t1,...tn) = Needed_[B]Torque[/B], where t1, ... tn -- are thrust limits of engines. 

That is why TCA kills horizontal velocity by pitching, not thrusting: it only controls rotation.

Your suggestion, on the other hand, may only be expressed as a system of two equations:

F1(t1,...tn) = Needed_[B]Torque[/B]
F2(t1,...tn) = Needed_[B]Thrust[/B]

That is a much harder problem which, I'm afraid, cannot be solved in a reasonable time in each physical frame (4-2 per visual frame). Even now the solver uses iterative optimization algorithm which performs fast approximation, not actual solving.

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Wonderfull mod. I'm glad someone took up this mod. A suggestion: the ability to exclude an engine from the TCA control. I have a VTOL SSTO that uses a Interstellar Nuclear jet for main power. I have radial LFO rockets around it for attitude control. It would be nice to be able to throttle the jet myself while letting TCA w/ the LFO engines stabalize my craft.

I'll add this functionality in the next release. But as I am now up to my ears in work, I can't estimate the time it will take.

[CSVoltage]

Fantastic! Thank you for the quick response. I look forward to sharing my craft with everyone!