Thoughts on clipping parts

[manek22]

So with the new Offset ability I have been wondering if anyone else has considered if clipping as an acceptable way to build.

Example: Normal construction

Selecting with offset and moved into tank

I'm half and half on it. I find it helpful but feels like cheating.

Thoughts?

[pincushionman]

HarvesteR removed the are-parts-clipping check from the build module for the 0.90 release. So clipping is "oficially" endorsed in that context.

Still cannot pile multiple objects onto the same node, and beware - with some parts this may be part of a ritual to summon Kraken.

Edited January 29, 2015 by pincushionman

[sal_vager]

If you're enjoying sinking parts into your fuel tanks, you're doing it right.

If you're enjoying having all parts distinct with no overlap, you're doing it right.

If you're fretting about which way is "acceptable" and not enjoying how others choose to play, you're doing it wrong.

Mass doesn't go away, you're given the choice to make your craft unique if you choose to do so, whether you choose depends on you.

My advice is don't worry about it

[Alshain]

Depends. If you are using FAR, you can do it but be careful and avoid it where it would be in the air. ferram4 has had trouble calculating the aerodynamics on clipped parts (though he might have fixed it now).

If not, it's your choice.

[r4pt0r]

I think fitting 2 gallons of milk inside 1 gallon of volume is wrong. This also applies to fuel tanks. so If you hide tanks inside tanks I don't think that's cool.

also, consider a rocket 6 orange tanks tall. Its tall and wobbly, and you have to design accordingly(more torque, winglets, ect...) but if you could halve that height and keep the same fuel amount, 6 tanks hidden in a 3 orange tank tall rocket is much more easily controlled. I don't think that's fair either.

Now on the other hand, If you are clipping batteries, or a little rcs, or making neato looking engine clusters(NOT AN ENGINE INSIDE AN ENGINE), or hiding other small things then that is a-ok by me.

Of course, play how you want. I'm just saying I don't rep people with cheaty clipping in their design.

[Vaporo]

I despise part clipping in my designs unless I am specifically trying to cheat. Occasionally, I will clip for aesthetics, but other than that, I avoid it.

Personally, I wonder if part clipping could have been handled a bit differently than the complete removal of the part-clip module (which was buggy and did need a lot of fixes). Perhaps the collision meshes used to detect clipping could have been reduced to 3/4 size or something.

[Engineer of Stuff]

I think fitting 2 gallons of milk inside 1 gallon of volume is wrong.

That's a funny way to think about it.

[cantab]

With the absence of any in-game checks now, it's really a matter of degree. Personally I dislike the fairly common clipping of the LV-N's reactor inside a fuel tank, it's a big thing after all.

More generally, I don't like completely hiding parts on my spacecraft. I'm happy to partially sink them in, for example the OX-STATs look great if they're sunk to be near-flush with the surface they're on, and I'm happy to put them in a cargo bay or similar where I can open it and look if I want, but I don't like stuff that's totally non-visible.

I also don't like clipping parts into crew modules, I've a sneaking feeling it can mess up the IVA views.

[Red Iron Crown]

Sal nailed it: Clip if you like to, don't clip if you don't, don't judge others about how they like to play.

The exception is in challenges where the rules may specify what degree of part clipping is acceptable, in that case follow the rules of the challenge.

[DocMoriarty]

I do it mostly for the looks and sometimes to a degree to balance a craft but it should be kinda realistic or believable.

[Musil]

I do it for some parts. The Science Jr., for example, has a stupid shape, and I usually clip it half into the lander, so that it will look cool, fit into fairings and not stick out like a sore thumb. I sometimes clip a probe core into a lifting stage so that I can make sure I can de-orbit it. In general, I do it for aesthetic reasons, but only if I feel it's not cheesy (like putting 2 gallons of milk into one carton).

[Frozen_Heart]

I clip for aesthetics but don't like clipping fuel or engines together too much. I'll blend fuel tanks to get a smooth look but not merge them completely.

[Joonatan1998]

Clip if you want, don't clip if you don't.

But I think that removing clipping restrictions should have remained as an option in the debug menu, but it isn't that hard to not clip even when the game doesn't force it.

I also don't know if rewievers will like free clipping, at least for me it makes the game seem unfinished.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Joonatan1998

[Damien_The_Unbeliever]

How so? Is there a way to perform serious clipping that doesn't require you to go out of your way to make it happen (I've not encountered that situation)? If it's not going to happen without deliberate action, I'm not sure how reviewers are going to accidentally make it happen.

[klesh]

I clip, to make awesomeness. The new offset and rotate tools make it easier than ever and don't require you to get into the debug menu. That's a defacto endorsement, in my eyes. You can accomplish so much more if you don't worry about it. I'll tweak the scale of anything too. I mean, if I need it, I'd tell the engineers to go build it.

[sal_vager]

It's easy enough to rotate a part so it clips inside of another even without trying, the gizmos just make it more controllable

[Joonatan1998]

How so? Is there a way to perform serious clipping that doesn't require you to go out of your way to make it happen (I've not encountered that situation)? If it's not going to happen without deliberate action, I'm not sure how reviewers are going to accidentally make it happen.

When testing the editor it is almost certain that they will notice that you can clip.

I don't know if they will like it, hate it, or just not care about it, but I think it feels weird in a finished game.

[klesh]

I don't see clipping parts as a finished or unfinished game element. They attach as you want them (the "finished" game version), and you can move them around with slick tools.... That seems almost more "finished" as it gives you more options, no?

[Liowen]

It depends on the craft really, in most cases I tuck the small square batteries into the big SAS module just to get them out of sight. But recent events while building my micro SSTO kind of forced me to clip the engine, slightly, into the tank, otherwise it would have been floating a good distance away from it. Here is a picture of it before I used the tool, you can see the gap between the tank and engine is very noticeable.

I may clip some things, but I really try not to over do it if at all possible. If you believe it is ok then it is in your game, and if you feel that is it wrong that is fine for you as well. The only way it would be wrong is if SQUAD made it so those parts clipped into something either didn't work, or blow up the craft in the case of an engine.

[problemecium]

What you're doing I consider fine. Generally I figure as long as the thrust transform (nozzle) is sticking out so exhaust can actually be emitted (including RCS ports), and tanks aren't mashed into each other more than a small amount (so it's still believable that the volume of fuel in question can actually fit in there), it's fine. A lot of the engines in KSP are much bulkier than they need to be based on real-life counterparts, and the tanks tend to have lousy mass ratios.

One thing that does bug me that most people seem to not mind is clipping wings all up into other wings or fuselages. A lot of SSTO spaceplanes I see around look like someone wadded up a piece of cardstock and stuffed it into the plane body with bits sticking out everywhere because of all the wings they have mashed into it, and that irks me. If a lifting surface is too small to provide adequate lift, then I say it's too small to provide adequate lift, so make it bigger. It's not THAT hard to make a controllable plane without quadruple-decker flaps.

[PB666]

Sal nailed it: Clip if you like to, don't clip if you don't, don't judge others about how they like to play.

The exception is in challenges where the rules may specify what degree of part clipping is acceptable, in that case follow the rules of the challenge.

Agree. Long live the Kobiashi Maru

E = m c ^ 2 also known as the mass energy equivilance. in Natural units in which C = 1. E = m. According to Hawkings and based on the standard model of partical physics the Sum(E) occupied on natural unit of distance (plank's point) (The dimensions did not exist). For at least on plank's unit of time. Fermions determine occupancy, if we convert fermions to bosons we can keep an unlimited quantity of milk in a gallon of milk. Getting the milk back, of course, is the problem.

In Kerbal a gallon has the density of 8 gallons, and a fuel tank is partially occupied, therefore there is considerable room to merge.

[inigma]

My thoughts:

Clipping parts is the only way to legitimately play the technology miniaturization game And achieve aesthetics. Extreme fuel clipping tanks within tanks is cheating though. I aim for no more than 1/3 tank clipping and only if necessary.

[Damien_The_Unbeliever]

but I think it feels weird in a finished game.

But that pretty well says that you believe that part clipping is wrong in some way (sorry for putting words in your mouth). If part clipping is a legitimate part of the game (which is surely part of this discussion thread) then why does the "finished game" letting you use a legitimate feature "feel wrong"?

[klesh]

My thoughts:

play the technology miniaturization game And achieve aesthetics.

I agree.

For me, it can be stuff like this:

http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/537385630485096998/D490ACFDB2BA895AC7E72F39F1D55FD54062247F/

The goo container animates and opens from one side. So, I expose only the part that opens. And it looks kinda swanky and art-deco or something, and I can dig that.

Edited January 29, 2015 by klesh

[Daze]

I quote sal_vager

For me it's very very helpful, for example you cant make an ascent module using just a pod and a big SAS with monopropellant tanks inside