[Stock Helicopters & Turboprops] Non DLC Will Always Be More Fun!

[Azimech]

13 minutes ago, Pds314 said:

It'll be good for part count, and above a certain size, fuel efficiency, but it will be worse for torque per weight at a given external diameter because it's wider and therefore reduces torque radius more.

Wider ... you mean the Wheesley needs to be mounted further radially out than the Juno and that will reduce it's effectiveness?

Different topic: I've rebuilt my MK3 based engine (can't call it a Chakora anymore) and with simple tuning tricks and where the Chakora v2 reached it's record using 96 blowers, I was able to reach 222 with the new engine using only 60! Thrust bearing problem is solved, it's a pusher now. Some more landing gear suspension adjustment is needed. The old tech is far from smelly.

And here's some more improvement on my Focke Wulf, cruising at 145 m/s using only 40 blowers (Chakora v1 used 72 to reach 175) and running very smooth -without losing bearing elements- at 45 rad/s.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Azimech

[Gman_builder]

Record = broken

again

This time it is 100% my design and the engine doesn't explode unless you really want it too. RPM maxes out at 50.5 rad/s. It doesn't explode if you try to exceed that RPM. It just stops increasing. The plane would have kept accelerating probably past 250m/s if pilot assistant hadn't flown it into the ocean. I was trying to recover it so I didn't get a screenshot of the exact speed when it crashed but you can see 245m/s in the flight log. I got a legit screenshot of 242m/s which is faster than the record of 237m/s anyway.

 

[Pds314]

1 hour ago, Gman_builder said:

Record = broken

again

This time it is 100% my design and the engine doesn't explode unless you really want it too. RPM maxes out at 50.5 rad/s. It doesn't explode if you try to exceed that RPM. It just stops increasing. The plane would have kept accelerating probably past 250m/s if pilot assistant hadn't flown it into the ocean. I was trying to recover it so I didn't get a screenshot of the exact speed when it crashed but you can see 245m/s in the flight log. I got a legit screenshot of 242m/s which is faster than the record of 237m/s anyway.

 

Hmm.. I shall have to make a dedicated speedrunner. =)

[Gman_builder]

19 minutes ago, Pds314 said:

Hmm.. I shall have to make a dedicated speedrunner. =)

That's what I've been doing since I started making turboprops lol. I mean, what was your plane designated as?

[Azimech]

Congrats Gman_builder!

Here's mine: 257.7 m/s, engine running 49 rad/s.

Tricky to operate but gets the job done.

[Gman_builder]

1 hour ago, Azimech said:

Congrats Gman_builder!

Here's mine: 257.7 m/s, engine running 49 rad/s.

Tricky to operate but gets the job done.

The crappy internet in this hotel doesn't load pictures so I don't know what your plane looks like. But i'm assuming it is pretty cool.

[Gman_builder]

I have to drive for 8 hours tomorrow so I'm gonna get some sleep. I might do some work later tomorrow but I might just go straight to bed lol. Will also check out Azimech's plane at a later date.

[Pds314]

5 hours ago, Gman_builder said:

That's what I've been doing since I started making turboprops lol. I mean, what was your plane designated as?

It was designed for endurance. That's why it carries over twice its weight in fuel.

[Pds314]

3 hours ago, Azimech said:

Congrats Gman_builder!

Here's mine: 257.7 m/s, engine running 49 rad/s.

Tricky to operate but gets the job done.

Wow that thing is fast. What fraction of that 55.67 tonnes is engine?

On another note, we're now less than 100 m/s from the sound barrier with the last two planes.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Pds314

[Pds314]

Hmm. My speeder plane is built. It has two pusher Variants of the Varpulis 2 and weighs about 80 tonnes empty.

The problem is that the wings seem to rip or disintegrate on takeoff.

Anyhow. It's goodnight for me, See you tomorrow.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Pds314

[Azimech]

3 hours ago, Pds314 said:

Wow that thing is fast. What fraction of that 55.67 tonnes is engine?

On another note, we're now less than 100 m/s from the sound barrier with the last two planes.

35 tons

Don't mention the readout at top speed, If I enable V.O.I.D. to calculate the mass while flying, I get a huge performance hit with all those Juno's.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Azimech

[Gman_builder]

Last night before i went to sleep i did a complete airframe re-design and I shaved 10 tons off the weight. It now weighs 47 tons. Which is just 1 ton heavier than the Gremlin Mk2. I didn't have the time to try another speed run but it should be faster. by a little bit.

Side note. I think Pilot Assistant can't calibrate correctly bellow 200 meters. So if you are ever going to do speed runs below that altitude you have to make sure you turn on PA above 200 meters and then descend from there. Or PA will fly your plane into the ocean or climb at such a high AOA you stall. 

[Pds314]

22 minutes ago, Gman_builder said:

Last night before i went to sleep i did a complete airframe re-design and I shaved 10 tons off the weight. It now weighs 47 tons. Which is just 1 ton heavier than the Gremlin Mk2. I didn't have the time to try another speed run but it should be faster. by a little bit.

Side note. I think Pilot Assistant can't calibrate correctly bellow 200 meters. So if you are ever going to do speed runs below that altitude you have to make sure you turn on PA above 200 meters and then descend from there. Or PA will fly your plane into the ocean or climb at such a high AOA you stall. 

Oh. I've been using SAS. I actually just reduced my modlist to TakeCommand, MAF, and Better Chase Cam.

If there is anything that lets me adjust prop pitch white controlling the main craft though, I want that, since right now I have to switch between the three.

[Gman_builder]

1 minute ago, Pds314 said:

Oh. I've been using SAS. I actually just reduced my modlist to TakeCommand, MAF, and Better Chase Cam.

If there is anything that lets me adjust prop pitch white controlling the main craft though, I want that, since right now I have to switch between the three.

That's why I was experimenting with the Free Moving Docking washer. But alas, VOID doesn't display RPM in that configuration and I think it is limited to around 20 rad/s anyway. I wish someone would write a quick plugin that allowed you to control aspects of other craft close by without having to switch over to it.

[Pds314]

2 minutes ago, Gman_builder said:

That's why I was experimenting with the Free Moving Docking washer. But alas, VOID doesn't display RPM in that configuration and I think it is limited to around 20 rad/s anyway. I wish someone would write a quick plugin that allowed you to control aspects of other craft close by without having to switch over to it.

Well, you don't necessarily need control, as much as you need automation. I think a KOS script that tries to maintain constant angular velocity by adjusting pitch would work. I've gotten KOS to hover a rocket literally 5" from the ground in a completely stable fashion.

[Gman_builder]

2 minutes ago, Pds314 said:

Well, you don't necessarily need control, as much as you need automation. I think a KOS script that tries to maintain constant angular velocity by adjusting pitch would work. I've gotten KOS to hover a rocket literally 5" from the ground in a completely stable fashion.

Hmm. Ya that would definitely work. But since I have literally no idea where to even start with KOS I would hope you could manage to write something like that.

I mean, it doesn't seem that hard.

Like, if angular velocity exceeds 50 rad/s increase prop pitch. If angular velocity drops below 48 rad/s decrease prop pitch.

If it is written in that format I would assume it would bounce between 50 and 48 rad/s and not really stabilize. Also, what about take off and landing? I would assume KOS would not know the difference between takeoff and a cruising speed run so it would try to decrease prop pitch beyond a usable level for acceleration while your still on the ground and cause bad things to happen.

You said your jumbo liner was designed for endurance? Why didn't you enter it into my endurance challenge? After all that's where this whole conversation started.

[Pds314]

5 minutes ago, Gman_builder said:

Hmm. Ya that would definitely work. But since I have literally no idea where to even start with KOS I would hope you could manage to write something like that.

I mean, it doesn't seem that hard.

Like, if angular velocity exceeds 50 rad/s increase prop pitch. If angular velocity drops below 48 rad/s decrease prop pitch.

If it is written in that format I would assume it would bounce between 50 and 48 rad/s and not really stabilize. Also, what about take off and landing? I would assume KOS would not know the difference between takeoff and a cruising speed run so it would try to decrease prop pitch beyond a usable level for acceleration while your still on the ground and cause bad things to happen.

You said your jumbo liner was designed for endurance? Why didn't you enter it into my endurance challenge? After all that's where this whole conversation started.

The engine reliability issues prevented it from reaching competitive range.

5 minutes ago, Gman_builder said:

Hmm. Ya that would definitely work. But since I have literally no idea where to even start with KOS I would hope you could manage to write something like that.

I mean, it doesn't seem that hard.

Like, if angular velocity exceeds 50 rad/s increase prop pitch. If angular velocity drops below 48 rad/s decrease prop pitch.

If it is written in that format I would assume it would bounce between 50 and 48 rad/s and not really stabilize. Also, what about take off and landing? I would assume KOS would not know the difference between takeoff and a cruising speed run so it would try to decrease prop pitch beyond a usable level for acceleration while your still on the ground and cause bad things to happen.

You said your jumbo liner was designed for endurance? Why didn't you enter it into my endurance challenge? After all that's where this whole conversation started.

Well, the bouncing between 48-50 could be fixed by using something more complicated like a PID controller. The cruising issue could be fixed by setting a minimum pitch for the system or a minimum speed at which to engage, or having it target a different optimal speed on the runway than in the air.

Remember, the idea is to maximize thrust without breaking the engine. If the engine won't get useable thrust at the appropriate speed, you have a bit of a problem with the engine/prop size ratio.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Pds314

[Gman_builder]

4 minutes ago, Pds314 said:

The engine reliability issues prevented it from reaching competitive range.

Well, the bouncing between 48-50 could be fixed by using something more complicated like a PID controller. The cruising issue could be fixed by setting a minimum pitch for the system or a minimum speed at which to engage, or having it target a different optimal speed on the runway than in the air.

Remember, the idea is to maximize thrust without breaking the engine. If the engine won't get useable thrust at the appropriate speed, you have a bit of a problem with the engine/prop size ratio.

Again, I have no clue how KOS works or how to write a script so I'm just going off what your saying lol.

Check this out.

Jumbo liner: 237 m/s = 530mph

Gremlin Mk3: 245 m/s = 548mph

pusher prop thing: 257 m/s = 574 mph

Tu-114(official fastest propeller powered aircraft): 241 m/s = 541 mph

Lockheed XFV(unofficial fastest propeller powered aircraft): 259 m/s = 580 mph

 

So if KSP physics is anything close to IRL physics we are literally at the almost the fastest we can go. The Republic XF-84H was a proposed supersonic prop powered plane that was actually built. But it never reached it's design speed and only went 520 mph because of bad design and getting a plane to pass even close to supersonic is ridiculously inefficient and difficult anyway. However it was (obviously) equipped with a supersonic prop that looks cool as ridiculous and awesome at the same time. It is also the unofficial loudest aircraft ever built. Being louder than top fuel dragsters. The plane was so loud in fact that it could be heard from 25 miles away just at idle thrust because the outer edges of the prop spun at supersonic speeds. People were physically incapacitated and disabled by the noise.

 

[Pds314]

16 minutes ago, Gman_builder said:

Again, I have no clue how KOS works or how to write a script so I'm just going off what your saying lol.

Check this out.

Jumbo liner: 237 m/s = 530mph

Gremlin Mk3: 245 m/s = 548mph

pusher prop thing: 257 m/s = 574 mph

Tu-114(official fastest propeller powered aircraft): 241 m/s = 541 mph

Lockheed XFV(unofficial fastest propeller powered aircraft): 259 m/s = 580 mph

 

So if KSP physics is anything close to IRL physics we are literally at the almost the fastest we can go. The Republic XF-84H was a proposed supersonic prop powered plane that was actually built. But it never reached it's design speed and only went 520 mph because of bad design and getting a plane to pass even close to supersonic is ridiculously inefficient and difficult anyway. However it was (obviously) equipped with a supersonic prop that looks cool as ridiculous and awesome at the same time. It is also the unofficial loudest aircraft ever built. Being louder than top fuel dragsters. The plane was so loud in fact that it could be heard from 25 miles away just at idle thrust because the outer edges of the prop spun at supersonic speeds. People were physically incapacitated and disabled by the noise.

 

Well, mach number is a problem in stock KSP, but I suspect not as much as IRL. We also have the benefit of having very little in the way of power limitations. I.E. Even the Thunderscreech or whatever still had "only" 6000 HP, which, while vastly more than any WW2 fighter or modern turborprop attack aircraft (I'm thinking of the Super Taco here, 1600 HP), is still way, way less than what we can do. As long as we're willing to build big enough, our engines should allow for pretty excessive thrust. Remember the Varpulis has 115000 HP, which is about equivalent to 20 thunderscreech engines, granted, at much lower RPM.

Also, not sure if the Thunderscreech could be rebuilt today faster. We now understand propfan engines better, which use exotic blade geometries to help reduce transonic drag. Further still, we now understand the area rule, which means that these things would be much sleeker at mach speeds.

Also, I suspect a modern equivalent to the Thunderscreech would be a pusher prop, and may well have the propeller inside the mach cone, thereby not needing a true supersonic prop, just a very big and powerful one. Alternatively, one might opt for a series of ducted fans similar to the compressor on a low bypass turbofan, which are definitely capable of exceeding mach 1. (I.e. I'm pretty sure the exhaust from the dry mode of an F-35 or F-22 escapes at something along the lines of Mach 3 or 4).

Edited July 19, 2016 by Pds314

[Pds314]

Oh. Dang. Did not expect that this thing would be supermaneuverable:

[Pds314]

Engine failures are bad...

I'm pretty sure the plane just lost its will to live.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Pds314

[Pds314]

Tried to pitch down to arrest climb rate after this. Ended badly with the plane essentially folding in half.

[Pds314]

Yes! I made a helicopter out of my Screecher 2x1 engine! The 2-blower Juno engine weighing just 756 kg.

It uses a Juno at 30% thrust for the the tail "rotor." and generous amounts of SAS torque for the illusion of control.




Appallingly low TWR, horridly bad top speed, useless amounts of control authority and total lack of blade pitch control aside, it's amazing! It can take off and fly on just two Junos, with a lift efficiency of about 70%!

Edited July 19, 2016 by Pds314

[Pds314]

Tried making a Hazard-ish-hinged tiltrotor VTOL. The hinges didn't reconnect, so, uh, yeah...



I shall have to figure out how to fly a chain of 5 seperate vehicles linked together with atmosphere experiments.

[Pds314]

@Azimech Didn't you somehow make a single-engined coaxial rotor system awhile back?