[0.90] Lazor System v35 (Dec 17)

[Romfarer]

Romfarer, I have an idea how we can get more people using your Lazor, there are a lot of players who are crying out for a way to have their airplanes and orbiters keep level with the planet below when ASAS is enabled, instead of the current behaviour where craft remain stationary relative to the universe.

They basically want their craft to automatically tilt at the correct rate so they keep the same part facing the body they are orbiting or flying over.

You already mentioned remote control of your own craft, well this is a feature these players have been asking for for ages, it just needs to work like ASAS, they\'ll deactivate it to steer, and if it can also work on other craft and remember its state the same way Tosh\'s cart does with its brakes and lights, players will use it to make tidally locked space stations

The Lazor will become the must have mod

I already implemented something very similar for the remote control. The '-g' button on some of the screenshots, maybe you have seen it. It basically keeps your vessel facing 'up' in the opposite direction of gravity. I also noticed, in the 1 or 2 attempts i did at launching a plane (i been busy programming) that the camera is not locked to the vessel. Both of these things are real easy to fix. How hard could it be? =P

So what i could do is add some lazors that point towards the ground and spawn an ASAS tuning system that slightly tilts the vessel towards a horizontal position. It should be possible to have this activated the whole time. Just got to figure out what color the lazors would have to have to spawn this system, perhaps two cyan lazors facing the ground.

I\'m about to scrap the whole 'remote control beyond 2500 meter' thing. I can activate the engines and i can make the vessel start taking off. But the command pod is somehow stuck in limbo stopping the vessel from taking off. If i don\'t have engines activated while doing this, the command pod floats through the vessel slowly until it hits the ground and explodes. And when i ask... =P...the commandPod keeps insisting it is attached and connected.

[sal_vager]

Okay I don\'t mind having the range limit on remote control, but hearing you can make the surface following ASAS possible is great

It may need to do a little more than just point 90 degrees to the horizon though, as most aircraft will lose altitude unless they are nose up, and people will want to cruise, so the system may have to add/subtract the current pitch, roll and yaw angle of the craft to the horizon and hold that constant.

Also space stations may not be left in an absolute attitude, so players need to be able to set the special ASAS going where they choose.

As to colour, I think it definitely falls between the blue remote control and the green scanner (for flight info) so yeah, cyan is a good choice

[Romfarer]

It may need to do a little more than just point 90 degrees to the horizon though, as most aircraft will lose altitude unless they are nose up, and people will want to cruise, so the system may have to add/subtract the current pitch, roll and yaw angle of the craft to the horizon and hold that constant.

Yeah sure i can make the system aid the pilot to fly in the manner he probably intended but i wont make it fly the craft by itself. If the pilot is loosing altitude, it is the pilots responsibility to pitch the craft correctly.

Also space stations may not be left in an absolute attitude, so players need to be able to set the special ASAS going where they choose.

Are you referring to orbital decay, setting the rotation of the space station or having a passive mechanism that constantly keeps the rotation of the space station fixed, no matter if it is the active vessel or not?

How do i in c# detect whether the craft was built in the VAB or the SPH?

[sal_vager]

The last thing I want is an autopilot, there\'s already Mechjeb for that and that takes all the fun out of flying.

What I meant about the stabilizer was that if it just keeps a craft pointing prograde (which mechjeb can already do) then aircraft that need their nose up to maintain altitude won\'t get very far, it\'s also up to the player as to what angle they are at when they engage the stabilizer, which it should hold relative to the horizon rather than relative to the universe.

If the player has set their craft pointing too high or to low that\'s their problem, the stabilizer is just doing what it was told to.

For the space stations this same stabilizer would also hold the station steady relative to the horizon, so players can watch their ISS replicas keep one side facing Kerbin or any other planet, instead of the current system with the ASAS where their station seems to turn as it orbits, even though it\'s actually perfectly steady.

Something Tosh\'s cart can do is save the state of its brakes and lights, so when carts come off rails they remain stationary and their lights turn on, if this ability was also part of the Lazors stabilizer then space stations left by the player could automatically turn to the attitude they were left at, as far as the player is concerned they would see their station just as they left it, still keeping one side facing the ground.

Of course when a vessel is on rails it will stay absolutely still in regards to the universe, that\'s fine and should be expected behaviour.

I personally don\'t really need an attitude maintaining stabilizer, and am happy enough with the system as it is now, with craft held steady relative to the game world, but this feature is top of the list for a lot of players, and could put your Lazor in a lot of peoples \'must have\' lists.

That means more feedback and more testers

I think the Lazor is already superb help when doing orbital rendezvous, as I know the rotation of the craft as they orbit is not a problem, but many people just don\'t like that and have been asking for it to be changed ever since persistence was added, not thinking through exactly why orbital craft look like they are turning, and just wanting everything to be as they expect.

I just realized I have spend ages trying to describe something very simple but I know it\'s important, it\'s just hard to put into words.

Last thing, detecting the craft construction building could be done by reading the .craft file, new .crafts have this at the top:

/ SFS Craft File

ship = 1st Design

version = 0.15.0

type = SPH

or:

// SFS Craft File

ship = Ice Dancer

version = 0.15.0

type = VAB

So if you can search the file for the type string, you can find where it was built, older .crafts don\'t have this so you can assume it is a VAB craft.

[Romfarer]

It turns out it is impossible to read the craft files in 0.15. However with a tip from r4m0n, i have now implemented a check for this anyway.

And i also uploaded Alpha 2-6 which lets you test the new stabilizing system, it works both for VAB and SPH crafts. It won\'t set the pitch of the SPH craft because i would like suggestions on exactly how this should be set. But it should keep the crafts pretty stable making landing A LOT easier for rockets and makes it almost impossible for an aircraft to spin out of control.

Re-assamble any existing lazor system, if you find that they explode on the launchpad.

[sal_vager]

Okay Romfarer I\'ll give this a go today, good work on finding a way to make the building check by the way.

I\'d suggest the stabilizer pitch control be kept as simple as possible, it should be enough to just engage it when at the desired angle and have it maintain that angle.

I guess if fine tuning controls are required there could be a small version of the Up, Down, Left and Right buttons from the earliest Lazors, but I don\'t think such extra control will be necessary, also is it still possible to stabilize the previous way without following the horizon?

It\'s actually pretty amazing that a feature like this is possible, thanks for working on this

[Romfarer]

also is it still possible to stabilize the previous way without following the horizon?

I\'m not quite sure what you mean, please explain.

I can make the aircraft follow the direction on the lead lazor. This way you could control the lazor and the plane with the mouse. but it might make things a bit too easy.

[sal_vager]

Earlier with the blue Lazor, the SAS button allowed me to steady other craft, this ability is unchanged?

I\'m trying to get into orbit right now for a test, but I agree, adding mouse control to the stabilizer beam would make things easy, perhaps leave that feature out for now

[Romfarer]

I can\'t remember if the updates to the remote control system went into this or the last alpha. Now it has the stabilize button to stop the angular speed of the craft. And buttons to make the craft steady in 3 directions, prograde, retrograde and -g.

The new stabilizing system is right now intended to keep planes leveled and to make landing easier, but on a rocket the stabilizer will work similar to the -g function of the remote control system.

You should test it on a plane, that\'s where it really shines.

[sal_vager]

Okay I\'m testing on a plane now, it wobbles a lot

I seem to be having difficulty setting the craft where it will maintain altitude, maybe Kerbins gravity isn\'t uniform and it\'s having to adjust as it flies?

Changing my throttle had an effect, I am nose down and heading for a crash and I didn\'t change the stabilizer, no wait I\'m nose up again, this is weird

The Lazor does indeed seem to be keeping me in a cruise but the altitude changes from time to time, is it trying to keep at a set altitude like the altitude hold in a real planes autopilot?

I can\'t figure out what the H and V buttons are doing, and when in space the stabilizer pointed my rocket straight up away from Kerbin which wasn\'t what I was trying to do.

I have thought of how this stabilizer can be explained to the player though, you can say this is a form of Laser levelling with the laser beams providing info to the Lazor system.

Also I can steer a bit with the rudder but aileron control is very hard with the stabilizer on, maybe it can check for aileron inputs so players can have a little more control when flying?

The whole system seems to be working really well, I have been typing most of this with my plane quite happily flying along and I don\'t feel the need to keep an eye on it, I know it\'s safe

Edit:

Big throttle changes have big effects, and the stabilizer doesn\'t seem to be handling that very well, it needs to keep the nose down when throttling up I think.

Edit2:

I ran out of fuel and nosedived with the stabilizer on, I wasn\'t expecting that, luckily I saved my Kerbals from death though

[Romfarer]

Okay I\'m testing on a plane now, it wobbles a lot

I seem to be having difficulty setting the craft where it will maintain altitude, maybe Kerbins gravity isn\'t uniform and it\'s having to adjust as it flies?

Changing my throttle had an effect, I am nose down and heading for a crash and I didn\'t change the stabilizer, no wait I\'m nose up again, this is weird

The Lazor does indeed seem to be keeping me in a cruise but the altitude changes from time to time, is it trying to keep at a set altitude like the altitude hold in a real planes autopilot?

For airplanes the stabilizer only affects the roll of the craft. I think i will implement a feature where the plane will follow the main lazor, then it will be easier to figure out if it is overpowered or not.

I can\'t figure out what the H and V buttons are doing, and when in space the stabilizer pointed my rocket straight up away from Kerbin which wasn\'t what I was trying to do.

H and V is to set the axis for airplanes and rockets basically and it is the 'up' axis for the system. As for your rocket the system is actually doing exactly what it was designed for, to keep the nose facing in the opposite direction of gravity. What other options would you like to see?

I have thought of how this stabilizer can be explained to the player though, you can say this is a form of Laser levelling with the laser beams providing info to the Lazor system.

Also I can steer a bit with the rudder but aileron control is very hard with the stabilizer on, maybe it can check for aileron inputs so players can have a little more control when flying?

The system is actually made to do just that. I use a flightstick so i can bank the plane and when i stop doing that it will level out immediately. I find that my planes spin all over the place without it. But i can see the problem if you use keyboard control. However, the tricky part would be to design the system so it levels the plane out but also sets the bank of the plane when the user wants it. It\'s real easy with a flightstick but i\'m not sure how to do it for keyboard. I could set the cyan lazors to represent the roll, and the lead lazor to represent the pitch/yaw, it would just conflict with the idea that the lazors are tracking the ground.

The whole system seems to be working really well, I have been typing most of this with my plane quite happily flying along and I don\'t feel the need to keep an eye on it, I know it\'s safe

I appreciate the comments and i\'m glad to hear it works

Edit:

Big throttle changes have big effects, and the stabilizer doesn\'t seem to be handling that very well, it needs to keep the nose down when throttling up I think.

Edit2:

I ran out of fuel and nosedived with the stabilizer on, I wasn\'t expecting that, luckily I saved my Kerbals from death though

Please attach the craft file so i can get a better idea of the wobbliness and the effect of throttle change on your plane.

[sal_vager]

When I tried H and V there seemed to be no effect and I could steer normally, it seemed to me the stabilizer was off, only G seemed to be effective, I may just have been using it wrong.

For rockets it\'s probably enough to be able to set the stabilizer to point prograde or retrograde the same way Mechjeb does, but it would be best if the Lazor can maintain the angle that the rocket was at when the stabilizer is activated, so for example if I activated the stabilizer when facing due north, the lazor stabilizer would keep me at that heading.

You mention using a flightstick, I and many players are using keyboards to fly and the stabilized craft is very hard to steer like this.

I have attached the aircraft I tested, it seems fine until you change the throttle, lowering to below half throttle makes the plane dive but if you then raise the throttle back to full the plane will first climb only to dive again, and it will keep doing this, it seems the stabilizer can\'t remember where level is.

[Romfarer]

When I tried H and V there seemed to be no effect and I could steer normally, it seemed to me the stabilizer was off, only G seemed to be effective, I may just have been using it wrong.

This is exactly how it was programmed. The stabilizer only work in G mode cause that was what made most sense to me at the time. If it was in H or V mode the craft would only level according to itself which would result in nothing. H and V mostly have an impact on how the lazors move when you use the up, down, right, left buttons. I see that i most likely will have to re-evaluate those buttons.

For rockets it\'s probably enough to be able to set the stabilizer to point prograde or retrograde the same way Mechjeb does, but it would be best if the Lazor can maintain the angle that the rocket was at when the stabilizer is activated, so for example if I activated the stabilizer when facing due north, the lazor stabilizer would keep me at that heading.

i\'m going to add some more functions to the stabilizer, both VAB and SPH. So for now the stabilizer on a rocket is mostly a landing aid. Try to land a small rocket with it, it should work better than asas.

You mention using a flightstick, I and many players are using keyboards to fly and the stabilized craft is very hard to steer like this.

I\'ll see what i can do to make it easier. I think making the aircraft follow the lazor will help a lot to this end.

I have attached the aircraft I tested, it seems fine until you change the throttle, lowering to below half throttle makes the plane dive but if you then raise the throttle back to full the plane will first climb only to dive again, and it will keep doing this, it seems the stabilizer can\'t remember where level is.

As i mentioned earlier the stabilizer only affects the roll factor of the plane. I tested your craft and i have to say it is a marvel of pitch stability. At full throttle this craft will actually level itself

[sal_vager]

I\'m glad you like the plane, I called it the Spark Airfighter and It took some effort to get right

Just a thought on the construction building check and the effect on the stabilizer modes, It is possible to launch a spaceplane from the launchpad and a rocket from an aircraft, so if only SPH built aircraft have a certain ability with the Lazor, VAB build aircraft would not have it.

Actually, the option to have the stabilizer keep rockets horizontal while in orbit just as it can keep aircraft horizontal in the atmosphere would be very nice, maybe add a toggle button? This way you get around the problem of not knowing what kind of vehicle was launched.

I can see how the stabilizer could be a landing aid, I still usually jettison my engines and land using a parachute When reentry heat is added to KSP, powered landings might not be possible any more.

I wish I could get my flightstick to work on here but Wine does not read the joystick at all, it\'s having to use a rawinput patch just to get mouse the to work.

[Romfarer]

Just a thought on the construction building check and the effect on the stabilizer modes, It is possible to launch a spaceplane from the launchpad and a rocket from an aircraft, so if only SPH built aircraft have a certain ability with the Lazor, VAB build aircraft would not have it.

When i actually get the H and V buttons to work as intended, this would be their use

Actually, the option to have the stabilizer keep rockets horizontal while in orbit just as it can keep aircraft horizontal in the atmosphere would be very nice, maybe add a toggle button? This way you get around the problem of not knowing what kind of vehicle was launched.

I had to sleep on it and i wake up with an idea. I\'m going to modify the mouse-lock tech i already have in the system, to work as a directional beacon for planes and rockets. For planes it will work like this: Put two red lazors on the plane, then activate the mouse lock. Now the plane will fly in the direction the red lazors are facing, and the position of the red lazors will determine the airplanes roll factor. So you can either fine tune this heading by numerical input, using the directional buttons or mouse look mode. For rockets it will work similarly, the red lazor will point in a direction and the rocket will automatically keep facing in that direction.

I can see how the stabilizer could be a landing aid, I still usually jettison my engines and land using a parachute When reentry heat is added to KSP, powered landings might not be possible any more.

I wish I could get my flightstick to work on here but Wine does not read the joystick at all, it\'s having to use a rawinput patch just to get mouse the to work.

If i get this right there won\'t be a need for flighsticks 8)

[sal_vager]

Sound\'s good Romfarer, especially the mouse control not needing flightsticks, there was a suggestion thread a while ago for mouse control but it didn\'t go anywhere, so if you can make mouse flight a reality I\'ll be very happy

I like that you are going for a non weapon mode for the red Lazor as well, I know you said before there was no real need to make the Lazor a weapon, it would have been an easy choice for the red beam though.

Will the red Lazor steering and the cyan Lazor stabilizer have too much overlap of ability though? It may be worth combining them but I don\'t know what else to use the read beam for yet if not this.

I did have a thought about the cyan beam though, is it possible to make the stabilizer try to hold the altitude of the craft by changing pitch when activated rather than trying to track the gravity vector? I\'m thinking this way it\'d be better able to cope with sudden changes of throttle, I\'m not sure what it\'d do in orbit though, maybe it\'d have to automatically stay pointing prograde otherwise it might keep pitching up and down as the orbital height changed.

[Romfarer]

When you can send a self destruct signal to any destructable target, there is little point in weapons

Yes there is overlap in the control schemes and it will be a little tricky to make them work together. The red lazor scheme represent direction you can set with input control only while the cyan scheme represent attitude control based on geographical input. So in a sense they are opposites, and thus red vs cyan, get it?

It is possible to make the craft maintain altitude. I gonna add that in the next version. And there will obviously have to be some altitude restrictions on the cyan lazor system.

[Philpax]

So I decided to try this out; it looked very cool, but no matter how hard I tried, I couldn\'t get the lazors on top of the crystals; it\'s a shame, I was looking forward to remotely detonating my horrible failures glorious planes that landed early. Are there any suggestions for trying to set it up properly?

[sal_vager]

Setting up is a pain and is a problem with the game and such small components.

Here\'s how to do it, put the crystals and the emitter on top of the Lazor base first, then grab the bottom crystal and move it to where you want it, just remember to add a final emitter to the Lazor base before you launch.

[Romfarer]

I remember we discussed this earlier in the process, and it still hasn\'t been resolved. I guess i\'ve become too used to doing it the way sal_vager descibed it above.

If anyone more experienced with part design has any input on how to improve the snapping of the small parts i would like to hear it.

[Philpax]

After doing some extensive reconfiguration to balance it out, I now have a working VTOL plane with lasers on it. This addon is awesome! I already went on garbage duty with my old prototypes. I recommend you add some more instructions to the OP, though - it took me a while to understand how to use it (including the time spent reading through the thread.)

[Romfarer]

After doing some extensive reconfiguration to balance it out, I now have a working VTOL plane with lasers on it. This addon is awesome! I already went on garbage duty with my old prototypes. I recommend you add some more instructions to the OP, though - it took me a while to understand how to use it (including the time spent reading through the thread.)

Good to see you got it working Many of the functions in the systems are due to change, as you will see in the next alpha, however your comments are well noted and i will add a guide to help with getting started. If you have more comments, suggestions or even ideas for new features, don\'t hesitate to post them here.

[sal_vager]

I just saw this dragon capsule docking photo and realized your telescope feature would make an excellent docking camera.

With the remote control mode holding the craft you intend to dock with steady with it\'s own SAS, and the telescope providing a ships point of view of the target, it\'d provide easy and realistic docking

We\'ll be able to see if we are facing the target with ease, or if we are approaching from an angle, and we can see exactly how far away we are thanks to the Lazors range meter, just one thing though, the telescopes point of view is from your ship right? Not from the in game cameras position?

Maybe the telescope should have crosshairs so when we get docking in game we can aim for the center of the docking node more accurately?

Edit: If it\'s possible to do, can the telescope have a mode that turns on the crosshair and sets the telescope to look straight forwards from the command pod, so it is like a first person view from the ship?

When docking is added it may be necessary to be able to set the telescope to look out from the docking node of choice, so hopefully it\'s possible to set the telescopes origin to parts other than the command pod, and set direction depending on the orientation of the docking node.

[Romfarer]

Oh wow, you have convinced me again! Target cam totally needs a crosshair overlay like this.

Right now the target cam has exactly the same position as the main lazor. If you look closely you will see the lazor sparkle in the middle of the camera. So it\'s just a matter of adding a big crosshair overlay to show the target point in relation to the vessels direction.

With the remote control it is actually possible to make the vessel and the target align automatically, so the trick would be to make this process 'difficult' enough to make it a fun part of the game.

I\'ve almost finished the autopilot/mouse control thing for airplanes, just struggeling with a oscillation issue when controlling the airplane with the mouse. But with how the keyboard control works now it is hardly necessary to use the mouse. And then i\'m going to change the cyan lazor completely, it will now be a height maintaining device that also looks forward and hopefully makes the airplane avoid crashing into mountains.

[sal_vager]

Even if the two ships are aligned, the player will still need to adjust for any lateral offset as they dock and close the gap to the target, so it may still be enough of a challenge as it won\'t be (and shouldn\'t be) automatic, as long as there is the option to keep full control of your ship while keeping the target steady then players who want the extra challenge can fly that way.

Also I\'d still like to see mouse flight, the new keyboard trim is great but there are still limitations even when capslock is on, small manoeuvrable craft are still twitchy with the keyboard.

Changing the cyan Lazor to a hight maintaining system sounds like a good idea, It probably won\'t be useful on orbiting craft but that\'s ok, cyan could just be aircraft specific features such as an altitude hold system (just as you are making) and maybe a Lidar altimeter for correct terrain height (maybe allowing for terrain following), and maybe even a variation of the target cam that can look straight down, like a ww2 bomber

Edit: I have found a possible bug with placement of the Lazor crystals, if they are accidently rotated upside down before the emitter is attached, they attach to the craft with the crystal inside it, making them impossible to remove.

This is not a fault with the crystals as such, as it could happen with any part, but as they are a uniform shape it is impossible to visually determine their top from their bottom, if in the next update you can make the top pointy then that should be enough to prevent this until it\'s time to make proper models for the Lazor system.