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I made a petition to the US Gov't so they can increase NASA's budget for a manned Mars landing by 2030

Spaceception

By Spaceception
in Science & Spaceflight

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tater

tater

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Posted (edited)

About 2/3 of US Federal spending is "programmatic" spending. The military, NASA, and everything else is within the 1/3 of spending called the "discretionary" budget. When people say "half the budget goes to the Pentagon" they mean half the discretionary budget. "Programmatic" is Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The military budget is not really that huge, and is in fact comprised of a high % of labor and related costs such as healthcare.

On top of this, we are still deficit spending, which results in debt service becoming a larger % of total spending. Increasing the NASA budget is not going to happen. On top of that, the military you want cut is also a player in space on multiple levels. The AF as an actual space-faring entity, and the other branches as "customers" for launches.

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Darnok

Darnok

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9 minutes ago, Spaceception said:

:rolleyes: Hey, its better than killing, there has to be at least 100,000 people who are for space exploration and against excessive military spending.

And you think that people with guns will give their money back... willingly? :)

You would have to fire lots of soldiers, it is just like fire office workers, but with guns and military training... if government is making cuts in other branches people protest, peacefully... what do you think soldiers that could lose their jobs would do?

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Spaceception

Spaceception

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2 minutes ago, Darnok said:

And you think that people with guns will give their money back... willingly? :)

You would have to fire lots of soldiers, it is just like fire office workers, but with guns and military training... if government is making cuts in other branches people protest, peacefully... what do you think soldiers that could lose their jobs would do?

Their budget is already massive, taking a small chunk out probably wouldn't do much, and it's high time they figure out better ways of spending, I read once that the Military spends more in a week that NASA does in a year.

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tater

tater

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11 minutes ago, Spaceception said:

Their budget is already massive, taking a small chunk out probably wouldn't do much, and it's high time they figure out better ways of spending, I read once that the Military spends more in a week that NASA does in a year.

That's not true. More like every 3 weeks.

NASA employs over 18,000 people. Given their average salary, that's about 1.4 B$. Call overhead (employer tax contributions, health insurance, etc) 18%. That's 1.652 B$.

The total number of people employed by the DoD is about 4 million (military and civilians combined). If the average total compensation is $40,000 (vs NASA's 77k), that's 160 billion in payroll. Add overhead, and it's 188.8 B$.

That's about 40% of the DoD budget. Cutting the military cuts those jobs. On top of that, the DoD actually WANTS to cut their expenses. They try to close bases all the time, but they don't get to decide. Everyone agrees we have too many bases, but you can be sure that the base in any particular congressional district is "vital to national security." You could likely double NASA's budget just by killing bases the Pentagon doesn't actually want---but that will never make it out of congress.

 

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Darnok

Darnok

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15 minutes ago, Spaceception said:

Their budget is already massive, taking a small chunk out probably wouldn't do much, and it's high time they figure out better ways of spending, I read once that the Military spends more in a week that NASA does in a year.

Don't get me wrong... I think that US military has far too large budget, but from their perspective having even small cuts in this year means lose jobs, well paid jobs.

And what will be in next year, more cuts? People behind military, high ranks people like generals, officers etc won't agree to give away their money to anyone else. Imagine you spend in army 20 years and now you have to quit, what would you do?

Corporations that are manufacturing weapons and military vehicles for US army won't allow anyone to take their money. They would lose their profits and it is unthinkable for them. 

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fredinno

fredinno

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2 hours ago, Gaarst said:

The best option for NASA to triple its space budget to go to Mars by 2030 would be to make China or Russia do it first...

And those are very unlikely. Russia has reduced itos space budget due to the Ruble Crisis, and China isn't really wholly interested in space.

8 minutes ago, tater said:

That's not true. More like every 3 weeks.

NASA employs over 18,000 people. Given their average salary, that's about 1.4 B$. Call overhead (employer tax contributions, health insurance, etc) 18%. That's 1.652 B$.

The total number of people employed by the DoD is about 4 million (military and civilians combined). If the average total compensation is $40,000 (vs NASA's 77k), that's 160 billion in payroll. Add overhead, and it's 188.8 B$.

That's about 40% of the DoD budget. Cutting the military cuts those jobs. On top of that, the DoD actually WANTS to cut their expenses. They try to close bases all the time, but they don't get to decide. Everyone agrees we have too many bases, but you can be sure that the base in any particular congressional district is "vital to national security." You could likely double NASA's budget just by killing bases the Pentagon doesn't actually want---but that will never make it out of congress.

 

NASA has the same problem with too much infrastructure places like Plum Brook- who's facilities are rarely used, aside from it's giant vaccum chamber. Honestly, that would likely be more politically palatable to do than reducing DOD funding, but still pretty bad.

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tater

tater

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11 minutes ago, Darnok said:

Don't get me wrong... I think that US military has far too large budget, but from their perspective having even small cuts in this year means lose jobs, well paid jobs.

And what will be in next year, more cuts? People behind military, high ranks people like generals, officers etc won't agree to give away their money to anyone else. Imagine you spend in army 20 years and now you have to quit, what would you do?

Corporations that are manufacturing weapons and military vehicles for US army won't allow anyone to take their money. They would lose their profits and it is unthinkable for them. 

This is simply not true given their task. If the US did not exist as a military power, someone would need to invent a replacement with ports in both the Pacific and Atlantic. The US is in a unique, geopolitical position. We also end up shouldering a lot of the defense expense for the entire western world, even as they hate us for it. Go figure. Someone has to have a credible strategic deterrence force, even now (and it was bought back when the requirement was far more easy to see). Someone needs to have naval and air forces, well, everywhere. We can argue about the cost, and I agree it could be cheaper, but it's not all spent on overpriced "stuff," even though a lot is certainly overpriced. The military would love to dump many bases, they try all the time, then Congress pairs it back to whichever delegation can't trade the right votes.

It's less about profits (which are a small %), and more about total spending/jobs. The same is true of NASA, and always has been. There is a reason why military bases and contractors have always been spread around the country, it's the same reason Johnson Space Flight Center is in Houston, TX, and launches are mostly in FL (then CA). Then Marshall, JPL, Ames, Goddard, White Sands, etc. The launch site is physics/safety-dominated. The rest is spreading the pork around.

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fredinno

fredinno

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6 hours ago, tater said:

This is simply not true given their task. If the US did not exist as a military power, someone would need to invent a replacement with ports in both the Pacific and Atlantic. The US is in a unique, geopolitical position. We also end up shouldering a lot of the defense expense for the entire western world, even as they hate us for it. Go figure. Someone has to have a credible strategic deterrence force, even now (and it was bought back when the requirement was far more easy to see). Someone needs to have naval and air forces, well, everywhere. We can argue about the cost, and I agree it could be cheaper, but it's not all spent on overpriced "stuff," even though a lot is certainly overpriced. The military would love to dump many bases, they try all the time, then Congress pairs it back to whichever delegation can't trade the right votes.

It's less about profits (which are a small %), and more about total spending/jobs. The same is true of NASA, and always has been. There is a reason why military bases and contractors have always been spread around the country, it's the same reason Johnson Space Flight Center is in Houston, TX, and launches are mostly in FL (then CA). Then Marshall, JPL, Ames, Goddard, White Sands, etc. The launch site is physics/safety-dominated. The rest is spreading the pork around.

The US is an empire- just one that is invisible, but needs a lot of military spending to spread its influence around the world.

5 hours ago, Elthy said:

If i understand that correctly thats petition to the US governemt, right? It can only be signed by US citizens, so this is not realy the right place...

I signed it, and I'm not american. You can sign from anywhere, as you don't need to put in a ZIP code.

4 hours ago, Spaceception said:

I shared it to various twitter users.

Good luck getting this out, even then, TBH.

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AngelLestat

AngelLestat

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haha, only 99997 to go..  You need a full marketing help..   
First you need at least 10000, so other voters take this more seriously.
Maybe if you search the most popular US KSP channels. Maybe with that you get 5000...
If you managed to reach 10000, then it is possible that these popular sources will convince other popular sources (no related) to support this quest.
 

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Nibb31

Nibb31

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Problem is that you're competing against folks who want:

  • More money for education
  • More money for child care
  • More money for medical research
  • More money for social protection
  • More money for arts and culture
  • More money for the environment
  • More money for creating jobs
  • More money to fight terrorism

and

  • Lower taxes

You're in for a rough fight.

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KerbMav

KerbMav

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If (insert any country)'s government were not ridiculously married to the financial and industrial sectors, the tax money available would get them more for less.

Public funds are spent with no immediate results, the companies have the money and then take their time. Budgets are frantically spent at the end of the year to receive at least the same sum in the next year. Overpriced medicinal drugs are pushed to the market without appropriate testing, creating even more expenses for social services, health insurances and the citizens themselves.

Not to mention the fear of less donations during the next elections, no overpaid "jobs" after there political career etc.

Just think about the fact that a private company can develop rocket technology far cheaper than a public entity and you are beginning to see where the problem starts.

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