jrodriguez

[WIN][1.0.X] KSP x64 Total Unfixer [v2.2 04/08/2015]

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Ok, I m tired of this. I added a log in MM so modder know if someone is playing x64 or x86. Now you added something that remove it. So now I can't trust any log I get and someone managed to send me a x64 log without telling me. I got better thing to do than debug a KSP Win x64.

So congratualation you got me in a really bad mood. So now I will make sure any MM on Win x64 KSP will not EVER work again.

Even though I was not the person who did this (I don't even use the unfixer), I apologize on their behalf. It's very sad that the actions of this individual (or more) have caused this, because it affects all 64-bit users. I knew going into 64-bit I wouldn't receive support and I have not bothered any modders since switching, especially since I use too many mods to recreate the bugs in 32-bit.

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@jrodriguez - Please don't unfix what ever sarbian is doing to MM (same goes to other that might think to unfix it), let's just end the unofficial 64bit KSP here and just be happy to have had fun while it lastet *or move to Linux 64bit*, and then wait with 64bit until Squad feels 64bit is ready for official release.

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My personal opinion is that jrodriguez is doing nothing wrong (except removing the log thing, but that wasn't on purpose obviously). He wants to use mods, that are open source, on a different version of KSP, that's his right. It's also his right to distribute the thing so that others can do the same. Wether win 64 is worth playing or not is a matter of taste.

Now, I also understand some modders are tired to get bug reports that have nothing to do with their work. Probably like Microsoft employees are probably tired to get bug reports of other Windows applications that have nothing to do with Windows bugs, web developers are tired to get internet explorer bug reports, and so on. The problem is that some users are not able to read, understand, and apply simple instructions (not necessarily there fault either, computer science is complicated, most people don't know what "64 bits" even means, and think they'll get better performance or other silly ideas). It's written everywhere, where win 64 related stuff is distributed, that "mod bugs" must be reproduced on 32 bits before posting. So if someone should be angry, in my opinion, it should be solely against these users that report bugs on the wrong forum thread. And even then, that's a whole part of software development to sort out which bug reports have to be discarded or not.

There it was, just stating my opinion, please no-one take anything personnaly, because it isn't. Makes me a bit sad to see a clash here, because I only see dedicated and generous people in the KSP modding community :-)

Also, I would kindly suggest to jrodriguez to add a clear (and very visible) statement on the OP to not report "mod bugs" found on unfixed versions of KSP (unless that's already the case when using the tool, I haven't tested it). And maybe make what's necessary to restore the sarbian log stuff?

Edited by Youen

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@Youen But the thing is that MM is working on 64bit, only showing the "rainbow" cat as a warning that you run 64bit. And from my knowledge serbian don't support 64bit yet he's not blocking he's mods from running, just warning about it. So really no need to unfix MM. And I like to see the "rainbow" cat, knowing that it is my 64bit KSP I was running.

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OK, so I suppose it's just a matter of adding it to the whitelist jrodriguez mentionned. This makes me think that adding indications in the log is a much better idea than blocking a mod completely, there would be no unfixer if all mods did this (so also no log removed by mistake). And a warning popup at startup (with a checkbox to disable it) would help make sure every user reads the bug report instructions. Again, maybe it already exists and I just don't know about it.

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Oh yay, here we go again.

I truly do not understand why Win64 users (ok, not all users, but obviously someone did it) must repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot.

The warnings were not enough. Again.

@the nit who started this again, whoever you are, thanks a bunch. You have a) made life harder for those who run Win64 and keep quiet about it, and B) aggravated one highly respected modder. Not just any modder mind you, but one who provides a core facility that many other mods rely on.

Here, folks, is a perfect example of why the automated "unfixer" should not exist.

While it makes life easy for those willing to play nice, it also makes things far too easy for the few who are entitled and dishonest enough to ask for support while hiding the fact they are running an unsupported build.

RIP x64 ModuleManager, and hopefully RIP unfixer. If you want to run Win64, learn to code.

Again, no amount of well intentioned warnings will fix this, it's been tried again and again. Please stop now.

Edited by steve_v

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If you want to run Win64, learn to code.

So if you don't know how to build a car, you should not be allowed to drive one, because some people don't respect traffic laws?

Don't get me wrong, I think I understand what you mean, that some of those users who incorrectly report bugs also don't understand why they would or would not need to play with a 64 bits version. But still, if fear of ignorant users prevented people to release software that could be used incorrectly, there would be about no software at all ever released.

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No, if you don't know how to build a car you shouldn't be allowed to drive one that has known problems and cannot be serviced by a mechanic or granted a warrant of fitness.

Go drive the supported 'car' and you will get support from the pros, otherwise leave alone the thing you do not understand.

Making it so easy to do simply opens the door to people who don't understand why they shouldn't.

It was made 'hard' so that those willing to learn and fix issues themselves still could, while the ignorant were not spamming useless bug reports.

Edited by steve_v

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If you want to run Win64, learn to code.

Honestly, I don't know the first thing about software engineering, but I'll continue to run 64-bit, why? I'm not inclined to ask for support when I understand the reason why I won't get it. A little common sense goes a long way. That said, official 64-bit really needs to come sooner so this whole issue can die.

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A little common sense goes a long way.

Agreed, however experience tends to reveal that "common sense" isn't actually all that common. So you get what we see here today.

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While the anger about false bug reports is justified, I don't believe it fair to see this as a reason to blanket-punish all Win64 users. There's a lot of Win64 fans, apparently, and the large majorityof them knows better than to complain about bugs (at least not without either replicating it on Win32 or clearly stating it to be Win64). Why not target those who cause the trouble, which are the guys who make the false reports? Make a list and add every "moron" to it that has made a false report, and if it's publicly shared, you can quickly weed out false reports. It's not like Win64 guys are particularly stupid, considering that many of the Win32 bug reports are also utter nonsense you have to wade through already.

Then again, we already had a full-blown discussion on the very same topic about half a year ago, here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/98761-Discussion-regarding-unathorised-forks-of-mods-and-their-distribution

The first pages are fairly spontaneous replies, start reading at page 3 to 5 to get some more thoughtful opinions and replies from various "big" mod makers.

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I added a line in the log specifically to deal with that. MM did not block anything for the KSP Win x64 because I did not want to block those who played nice. But now the new unfixer is messing all that up. We can't know if someone is sending an x64 log by looking at one line of log and we have to spent time before we know if we should ignore a bug report. And how can I ignore them if I have to spend hours debugging their mess ?

If you wanted a sane stance on my end you just had to not mess with the effort I made to keep this working for everyone. Now it is too late.

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IMO it was only a matter of time before this blunt tool broke something it shouldn't or enabled a fool to do something dumb... And started this all again.

Pass the popcorn, this ought to be good. :wink:

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It's a little bit ironic:

Modders were annoyed by false Win64 bug reports.

Modders disable Win64 support.

Other modders create forks or tools to circumvent the Win64 disable.

Unfortunately, this apparently disrupts the approach of another key mod, which is to identify and notify about Win64 mods, but not disable them.

Which leads to that modder now disabling Win64. But as this mod is a key requirement for very many other mods, it'll probably kill Win64 entirely.

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Which leads to that modder now disabling Win64. But as this mod is a key requirement for very many other mods, it'll probably kill Win64 entirely.

... or it'll just get "unfixed". Looks like a stupid war to me.

As the author does not seem active just right know, I'll take a look at his tool to see if I can white list Module Manager, but then I'll need him to update the OP anyway.

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Actually it's as simple as adding ModuleManager.dll in whitelist.txt. I've just added a bug report on github so that jrodriguez can hopefully be notified of the issue if he is not following this thread.

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Actually it's as simple as adding ModuleManager.dll in whitelist.txt. I've just added a bug report on github so that jrodriguez can hopefully be notified of the issue if he is not following this thread.

Sorry for the delay. @Sarbian Apologise for the unfixing of MM, I will add it to the whitelist ASAP . I hope you will not take any further actions to avoid MM to work on x64, because I don´t want to spend time trying to hack new code. BTW I already began to miss the Nyan Cat.

About the x64, hacks, etc discussion. I hope this hack will die soon, hopefully with the KSP 1.1 release with Unity 5?. But in the meantime....here we are.

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I have gone through this thread, and I am completely satisfied with the decision to back the OP and thank him/her greatly. I'm sorry to see the response, from the few Mod creators regarding your decision to post this incredibly helpful fixer, that allows players such as myself, to circumvent the intentional road block placed with in the Mod packs by the creators. I'm not trying to start or spark or an argument! I am trying to give a perspective, that might allow an open minded Mod Creator, a view point that is not filled with anger or what seems to be a perceived betrayal.

For those of us mature enough to understand, what should be common sense, that the Mod Creators are not responsible for the reactions caused by the 64 bit build. Now some will say that is exactly the point. Common sense is not at all common. To be harassed with bug reports that are completely unavoidable due to the 64bit build, will get absolutely frustrating as hell. If I were in those shoes, I would explain it clearly, like most of you have already done, time and time again, then ignore, block, request action taken against those forum users that do not respect the rules or continue abusing the forums regs on bug reporting and PM'ing Mod Creators.

Instead of that, some mod creators chose to just blackball the entire 64bit community from using their mods. This is not the answer, nor would it stop the A$$ holes that complain, from complaining. It just stops good members of the community, from having and gaining access to your awesome mods. From the point of view of the OP, he is helping those of us good members, the ability to use these mods again, while using the 64bit workaround. Yet some of you bluntly state, "you will never receive any help or benefit from us again". "How dare you post this, cant you see we didn't want the hassle and now you have lit the path to complaining again". No real quotes as its pointless. Come on guys, do you really think the tools are what is causing the problem, or the people that use the tools? Bad Pun, but those people are the fricken tools... Mod creators should remove the blocks, restate the obvious, then go about blocking and ignoring.

I have been playing KSP since .14 or so, maybe earlier I cant remember. As the game progressed, the available space for Mods became smaller and smaller. The buggy 64 bit version, finally released all that great ram space. Then they shut it back down. :mad: I have spent most of my time squeezing and cutting every bit of space I could get, only to have my game screwed up so badly it was crashing and failing more than my play time. Then another patch or update and I would have to start all over again. Since finding this AWESOME THREAD, I am finally enjoying KSP the way I like to play. Most of the people that have found this Thread, don't complain, or bug report at all, so thrashing the guy that helped a lot of people get back into enjoying KSP again, doesn't seem like a very fair response, all in all considered.

Sorry about the long post, I just wanted to back this guy up and give huge thanks, because I had no idea how to do what he did. Maybe in the middle I could offer a bit of a user friendly perspective to all you great Mod Creators. Thanks for all your hard work, as I have said many times, its thanks to you guys I keep playing. BTW: 5.1gig and not one crash for the last 20 hours of play time.

Dren

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Instead of that, some mod creators chose to just blackball the entire 64bit community from using their mods. This is not the answer, nor would it stop the A$$ holes that complain, from complaining. It just stops good members of the community, from having and gaining access to your awesome mods. From the point of view of the OP, he is helping those of us good members, the ability to use these mods again, while using the 64bit workaround. Yet some of you bluntly state, "you will never receive any help or benefit from us again". "How dare you post this, cant you see we didn't want the hassle and now you have lit the path to complaining again". No real quotes as its pointless. Come on guys, do you really think the tools are what is causing the problem, or the people that use the tools? Bad Pun, but those people are the fricken tools... Mod creators should remove the blocks, restate the obvious, then go about blocking and ignoring.

Except the only reason that anyone even acknowledged that win64 KSP itself was the issue is because of the lockout. Up until then, everything was blamed on the mods themselves, with tons of crap thrown our way, and worse: users attempting to "fix" mods that were only having problems because of win64 KSP itself encouraged people to make changes to their installs that would cause other problems. You know, more problems for modders to deal with. Surely, you remember this happening with the 0.23.5 hack and the 0.24 build, yes?

But in any case, none of this will change until someone can articulate a good reason for why modders benefit by removing the win64 locks. No one has ever managed to do that; it always comes down to arguments of why modders should take on more workload and effort for the sake of what users want. Once you can convince me why I benefit from removing that code, then it'll be removed. Until then, it provides a good benefit in removing complaints of mods being broken on win64 KSP due to win64 KSP being broken, and there's no reason to stop seeking a better lock-out bit of code. The ability to weed out the worst of the noise through the barrier to entry of a recompile or by encouraging a switch to a more stable platform is more useful than any benefit that I can see of leaving it unlocked.

Seriously, someone try to explain why a modder benefits from leaving a mod functional on win64 with all its issues. Not why a user wants it, that's been repeated a million times and isn't compelling: why would a modder benefit from that.

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Except the only reason that anyone even acknowledged that win64 KSP itself was the issue is because of the lockout. Up until then, everything was blamed on the mods themselves, with tons of crap thrown our way, and worse: users attempting to "fix" mods that were only having problems because of win64 KSP itself encouraged people to make changes to their installs that would cause other problems. You know, more problems for modders to deal with. Surely, you remember this happening with the 0.23.5 hack and the 0.24 build, yes?

But in any case, none of this will change until someone can articulate a good reason for why modders benefit by removing the win64 locks. No one has ever managed to do that; it always comes down to arguments of why modders should take on more workload and effort for the sake of what users want. Once you can convince me why I benefit from removing that code, then it'll be removed. Until then, it provides a good benefit in removing complaints of mods being broken on win64 KSP due to win64 KSP being broken, and there's no reason to stop seeking a better lock-out bit of code. The ability to weed out the worst of the noise through the barrier to entry of a recompile or by encouraging a switch to a more stable platform is more useful than any benefit that I can see of leaving it unlocked.

Seriously, someone try to explain why a modder benefits from leaving a mod functional on win64 with all its issues. Not why a user wants it, that's been repeated a million times and isn't compelling: why would a modder benefit from that.

No I see your point 100%. I could only see the benefit of it being less hassle to not implement the lock outs. But that's just a ridiculous statement. Its a much better route to lock them out from the Mod creators perspective. I was simply trying to say its not fair to criticize the OP for trying to implement something for the users. That was all. I try and stay neutral on most subjects and support the Mod Creators the best I can. I cant say I feel your pain, but I understand the hassle it is to work with the public, and more so, you guys do it for free and get ragged on. I again just like this workaround because I can finally play with all my fav mods again. I will NEVER complain to a mod creator about the functionality within 64 bit, and I try damn hard not to complain at all. I still do, but I was a thread starter for the donations rules, and within months a huge percentage of Mod Creators had donation tabs. This is not trying to pat my own back, its just to relay that I genuinely support both sides the best I can. In the end, I guess its just easier for some creators to put in locks, but then one cant complain if people find ways to hack them. We just want to play with the awesome mods..... end of story Last thing, if it isn't compelling to make people happy with the Mods you create, then what reasons do you create them? I mean that's got to be a major draw for some right. Maybe that's just not enough for you Ferram?

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We just want to play with the awesome mods..... end of story Last thing, if it isn't compelling to make people happy with the Mods you create, then what reasons do you create them? I mean that's got to be a major draw for some right. Maybe that's just not enough for you Ferram?

It is nice to live in a world where everything is love and fun. In the mean time when we share the result of our hobby we have to deal with abusive users and people who keep disrespecting our choice of not wanting to deal with those.

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Last thing, if it isn't compelling to make people happy with the Mods you create, then what reasons do you create them? I mean that's got to be a major draw for some right. Maybe that's just not enough for you Ferram?

Not really. If I went with that logic based on the amount of hate I get for all the win64-related breakage, from start to finish, and users complaining about not being able to figure things out would lead me to the conclusion that my mods don't make people happy. And I would quit.

Fortunately, I don't care whether it makes users happy, because that's a poor metric and a poor reason to create a mod to begin with. Instead, it only exists because I got tired of stock aero being terrible (and then later, not as good as it could be) and I created the mod for my use. I released it because the few users that actually provide feedback can help narrow down bugs and possibly point towards more useful real-world data to incorporate; I release mods because it provides a means to make them better. Now, when a certain build is so unstable and generates so many complaints that it drowns out all the other feedback, it directly interferes with the only reason for me to release. I already showed a lot of care towards my users and sought a way to maintain the benefit of releasing to me so that I could justify continuing to develop and release it; don't ask for more, especially when it removes the entire purpose of releases for me.

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It is nice to live in a world where everything is love and fun. In the mean time when we share the result of our hobby we have to deal with abusive users and people who keep disrespecting our choice of not wanting to deal with those.

Oh yeah, that's what I was referring to. You are saying creating a Mod for our community isn't a good enough stand alone reason. Plus your saying that's living in a fairy-tale?? Are you kidding Sarbian

The OP created another Mod that helped out a ton of people that want to use the 64bit. It just stomped on the intentional locks placed by Mod creators that didn't want to hear the BS anymore. I cant say, that if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't have done the same thing. That's just the bottom line.

Don't tell me you don't understand why he did it. You have the right to be pissed off... congratulations. But I'm going to go play now, with my 64bit 5.1gig ram usage. Live in my Hugs and Love world, where people still give a .... about doing great things for the community.

Lastly I'm going to tell you thank you, cause I really do love what you guys have given me for my KSP experience. That's not hollow text, any time any of you ever need anything I could possibly due, all you have to do is PM me.

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