Pawelk198604

Nissan Leaf, How big are the costs of using an electric car Nissan Leaf?

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How big are the costs of using an electric car Nissan Leaf. My city has just opened the city rental of these cars it's co founded with EU to make our city more eco-friendly, it's about fighting smog. I do not have a driving license though I am 32 I'm a bit shy, I have autism, my dead mother advised me not to, she was afraid that I could cause an accident. A little dramatized. She was afraid that I would not be able to deal with mastering the gearbox and clutch :-) 
 

Edited by Pawelk198604

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I can honestly say I don't know. (Probably because I neither want or care to know.) But Google knows. I copied your exact question into google and it spat out over a quarter million results in about half a second.

Or ask a local dealer. If anybody knows it's them.

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32 minutes ago, Pawelk198604 said:

How big are the costs of using an electric car Nissan Leaf. My city has just opened the city rental of these cars, it's about fighting smog. I do not have a driving license though I am 32 I'm a bit shy, I have autism, my dead mother advised me not to, she was afraid that I could cause an accident. A little dramatized. She was afraid that I would not be able to deal with mastering the gearbox and clutch :-) 
 

I don't know about leaf, my Prius tends to get about 18.3 km/L of gasoline, the cost of gasoline we do not even budget for its so small. We spend about 40$ per month, so that probably par with a modest driver in Europe. maybe 2/3rds so 26$/month. Electric cars are expensive, a 30,000$ vehicle that has a 10 year life will have a business cost of 3000$ per year plust the cost of insurance, which here is around 2000$ per vehicle so total maybe 5000$ per year. 416$ month . . . much more than the cost of power

[hint: just assume everyone else on the road is nuts, so slow down and keep your space from all the other crazy folks. If this is too hard to imagine assume the woman in the next car over just found out in a text from her worst enemy that an image of her on face-book was just tagged in a very embarrassing photo]

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46 minutes ago, Pawelk198604 said:

...costs of using an electric car Nissan Leaf. My city has just opened the city rental ...

Go in and ask ? Or search the .net for Nissan PL ?

Do you currently have any experience with a car ? What does the driving license exams takes in your country ? Does someone else living with you have a driving license ?

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45 minutes ago, PB666 said:

I don't know about leaf, my Prius tends to get about 18.3 km/L of gasoline, the cost of gasoline we do not even budget for its so small. We spend about 40$ per month, so that probably par with a modest driver in Europe. maybe 2/3rds so 26$/month. Electric cars are expensive, a 30,000$ vehicle that has a 10 year life will have a business cost of 3000$ per year plust the cost of insurance, which here is around 2000$ per vehicle so total maybe 5000$ per year. 416$ month . . . much more than the cost of power

I wish I had your thrift. I spend $40 per week.
But I commute 60 km/day (round trip), so that's a impact on the wallet too.

But back to the OP:

PB666 is on the right track for his figures. What you save in 10 years not buying fuel MAY offset the initial cost of the car depending on how much you drive and right now electric cars are quite expensive compared to a similar gasoline powered car of similar performance. Insurance will be a factor since there aren't alot of electric cars out there compared to conventional vehicles so there may be an increase in yearly payments (statistical models, cost of parts, claims, etc). At least that rings true up here in the Great White North.

Biggest problem for me buying a electric car: Climate.

It's not uncommon for where I live to dip down to -40C, and that kills batteries quicker than Elvis or Janis Joplin. That's our problem. For us a Hybrid makes more sense.

Edited by GDJ

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Since the Leaf is an electric-only car, it should be pretty simple to calculate the minimum (energy-only) operating cost.  The standard battery is (IIRC) 40 kWh, or 144 MJ, which gives a range of approximately 85 miles (135 km).  Use your local electric rates (or the cost of charging at the dealer's charging stations) to calculate your energy-only cost per mile or kilometer; multiply by your daily, weekly, or monthly expected usage.  Note that the 2018 Leaf is to be offered (by end of the model year, at least) with a 60 kWh battery, and an even larger one coming soon (2019?); those will increase range, but shouldn't change the cost per kWh or MJ.

Also note that there will still be maintenance costs beyond the energy cost, as there would be with any car (though if you're renting on a daily basis, those are likely to be priced in).  No oil changes, injector cleaning, engine intake filter replacement, etc. for an electric car, but you'll still need tire rotation/replacement, alignment, shocks/struts, brakes, etc. at similar intervals and cost to a gasoline powered car.

I'd have seriously considered a Leaf for my most recent car purchase (summer 2015), but my daily commute was within a couple miles of the car's range; too much chance of getting stranded along the highway, not to mention the purchase cost (not quite double what I wound up paying), battery replacement cost (after 2-5 years), and the cost of installing a home charging station.  The Ford Fiesta I bought (base model, 6-speed dual clutch automatic and 1.6L normally aspirated direct injection gasoline engine) gets about the same highway mileage as a Prius (can't compete around town, but 95% of my driving is my daily commute, nearly an hour each way), and cost less than half as much.

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10 minutes ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

brakes, etc. at similar intervals

Brakes last longer in electrified powertrains due to regenerative braking.

IMO the best bet is still a series hybrid like the Volt, basically an electric car with an onboard combustion-powered generator. I would think gas turbines would be best for that, since I believe they are fairly efficient and can run on nearly anything, although a specific fuel may best for emissions. I guess there aren't any in mass production that would be suitable. *does some Googling* Hmmm, there seems to be some units aimed more at heavier applications like busses dues to cost, maybe increased mass production could bring that down... http://www.bioturbine.org/Publications/PDF/microturbine-01-HILTECH.pdf

One of the bigger problems with pure electrics in a colder climate is that the battery needs to provide cabin heat on top of not being able to supply as much power when cold. That's a big advantage to ICE -power, as cabin heat is provided by "free" waste heat.

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4 hours ago, Pawelk198604 said:

How big are the costs of using an electric car Nissan Leaf. My city has just opened the city rental of these cars, it's about fighting smog.

For most classic combustion cars the cost/km is somewhere online.

To calculate the cost in comparison you need the

- loss of the cars value over the time you use it

- cost of a new battery / lifetime of battery or price for the battery lease

- cost of charging the car's battery (price/kwh * kwh for charging)

- taxes and other fees, insurance

- km you drive

 

In the end you'll probably not be surprised that it is more expensive than a combustion car. If you drive a lot and you compare it to a small diesel then the difference is huge and you might want to come back in 3-5 years.

My proposal: wait a few years more if your current car still runs. It will get better as more charging stations are built and the big manufacturers one by one switch to electric cars. Batteries get better, drive trains cheaper, etc.

Otoh, if your will to own one is too strong then go ahead. When have we ever listened to what mother said (lays down a rose in thoughts) :-)

NO ! Cancel that, i misunderstood. I didn't get that you have no driver's license ... don't even think to drive without one !

 

Edited by Green Baron

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Any comparison in US$ is worthless.

Europe has huge taxes on fuel. Also diesel vehicles are competitive in Europe, so if you are interested in running cost, that is what you have to compare with. The cost of running an electric vehicle is also going to depend on national purchase subsidies, road tax exemption, lower insurance, and so on...

Therefore, comparing costs on an international forum is unlikely to provide any info that is relevant to you. You have to do your homework comparing costs in your country.

I really wish there was more choice in terms of electric vehicles. Currently, in Europe, you have the choice between the Nissan Leaf, the Opel Ampera (Chevy Volt), and the Renault Zoe. And all of those cars are ugly and not something I would want to drive. There is the BMW i3 and of course Tesla, but they are insanely overpriced. The Tesla really isn't suited to European roads anyway.

That's not a lot of choice.

One thing that is worrying about electric vehicles is the resell cost, which is an important part of the cost of ownership. There isn't much of a second hand market yet, because the batteries represent a good proportion of the cost of the car and a significant risk to buyers. That's why I think Renault's solution of renting the batteries on a subscription basis has merit. It removes the risk of owning and buying batteries. When they stop holding charge, you just bring them in and replace them. Last time I looked, the cost of renting the batteries and charging was comparable to the fuel cost of a diesel vehicle, and cheaper than a petrol/gas car. That is in France, with our huge fuel prices.

 

Edited by Nibb31

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29 minutes ago, Nibb31 said:

I really wish there was more choice in terms of electric vehicles. Currently, in Europe, you have the choice between the Nissan Leaf, the Opel Ampera (Chevy Volt), and the Renault Zoe. And all of those cars are ugly and not something I would want to drive. There is the BMW i3 and of course Tesla, but they are insanely overpriced. The Tesla really isn't suited to European roads anyway.

That's not a lot of choice.

 

Oh, there are more meanwhile. Mercedes B, VW Golf, Renault Zoe, Kangoo and a small 2 seater, Smart 2-seater, Opel Ampera, .... they still have a more limited range compared to American models but all announced a new palette for the coming 2-3 years. They must to fulfill the fleet CO2 emissions because nobody is buying diesels any more. How comes ? *devilkerbal* *-)

Edited by Green Baron

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6 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

because nobody is buying diesels any more. How comes ? *devilkerbal* *-)

9cf48e52fefb330b0ff9502381e34b0071016af6

(not a reaction image but the actual answer to the rhetorical question)

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47 minutes ago, Nibb31 said:

One thing that is worrying about electric vehicles is the resell cost, which is an important part of the cost of ownership. There isn't much of a second hand market yet, because the batteries represent a good proportion of the cost of the car and a significant risk to buyers. That's why I think Renault's solution of renting the batteries on a subscription basis has merit. It removes the risk of owning and buying batteries. When they stop holding charge, you just bring them in and replace them. Last time I looked, the cost of renting the batteries and charging was comparable to the fuel cost of a diesel vehicle, and cheaper than a petrol/gas car. That is in France, with our huge fuel prices.

The battery for the Prius is 2000 dollars but, 120,000 miles without a brake job. That in and of itself is worth it. On my old car the repair shops could never get it right on my olds, and I ended up having to do it myself. The prius in terms of reliability, hands down, the best car that I have ever owned. I replaced one little half-size battery for about 60 bucks, remote control they dealer wanted 400$ for but I bought the case on line for 12.00$. What else, my friend told me synthetic oils on prius are a waste because the engine hardly runs hot, if you are taking a long trip with high speed, use synthetic, otherwise just change oil every 6 months. There are intangible benefits of own a hybrid. Milage may very, in Utah I was getting around 60 miles to the gallon. I remember we drove from Chisos basin down to Bocillas de carmen, >100 mpg. The engine in a prius is only running half the time, it ages at about half the rate of a regular car. I suppose the trany eventually wears out, I have no idea how long a contiunously variable transmission lasts.

One has to look at the balance, if you are always commuting on a highway, get a corolla or a honda civic. If you are pretty much a city driver get a hybrid, if you commute a few miles back and forth to work and have another car for trips and stuff, get an electric.

People are afraid of what they don't understand.

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I've seen exactly 1 (one) Tesla on the road in Poland so far. Very rare car. Not much infrastructure dedicated to electric automobiles. Which also means limited options when it comes to servicing, purchasing spare parts and even charging outside of big cities. And if anything breaks, 99% of car mechanics will not know what to do with your expensive toy. Realistically, it's way too early to consider buying an electric car if you are not on the "rich" side of the scale (or an extremely dedicated maniac :) ).

"What does the driving license exams takes in your country ?" I can semi-reliably answer that, because i'm finishing my own course (finally!!!). Course is not terribly expensive. Total cost is about one medium monthly wage - if you manage to pass exams at the first attempt. If you fail, you have to pay for every next exam. But health might be a concern. Medical examination is required, including psych evaluation. I don't know if autism is a condition excluding from getting a driver's license - i'd suggest simply asking family physician or instructor at local driving school. Heck, i can even ask my own instructor tomorrow :)

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2 hours ago, Scotius said:

I've seen exactly 1 (one) Tesla on the road in Poland so far. Very rare car.

You can't throw a rock in Seattle without hitting a Tesla. They are all over the road.

(And then the owners get all upset at you for throwing a rock at their car!)

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I think the bigger question in his picture should be

14 hours ago, Pawelk198604 said:

I do not have a driving license though I am 32 I'm a bit shy, I have autism...

I'm not saying limited persons can't drive (if anything, they seems to be enough of a common to wary engineers), but from what I've seen through UK's DVSA, you have to report such medical conditions.

Only after then you could wonder what would you drive.

 

Given you're in Poland, though, I think a better comparison would be between Public Transport and your what-if personal car.

For driving technicalities itself, I'd say get to know your car, get to know the road, get to know the traffic. Drive with someone you know well and knows the road and traffic. If you're confident enough with the routes you know you can start wander about elsewhere.

Edited by YNM

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2 hours ago, YNM said:

I think the bigger question in his picture should be

I'm not saying limited persons can't drive (if anything, they seems to be enough of a common to wary engineers), but from what I've seen through UK's DVSA, you have to report such medical conditions.

Only after then you could wonder what would you drive.

 

Given you're in Poland, though, I think a better comparison would be between Public Transport and your what-if personal car.

For driving technicalities itself, I'd say get to know your car, get to know the road, get to know the traffic. Drive with someone you know well and knows the road and traffic. If you're confident enough with the routes you know you can start wander about elsewhere.

I think in Poland we had similar system to UK because it very much same in whole Europe :-) 

polish-driving-licence-poland.jpg

 

polish-driving-licence-poland-categories

 

driving-licence.jpg

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I asked my instructor today. His answer boils down to: "Ask your doctor." Without green light from the physician you can't start the driving course. If he'll say OK - you can get driving license with autism.

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14 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

You can't throw a rock in Seattle without hitting a Tesla. They are all over the road.

Teslas are extremely expensive in Europe and are huge by European standards, which makes them impractical for most purposes. It would be a pain to drive and park one in a European city and the fast charging stations are too rare to make long journeys practical.

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43 minutes ago, Nibb31 said:

Teslas are extremely expensive in Europe and are huge by European standards, which makes them impractical for most purposes. It would be a pain to drive and park one in a European city and the fast charging stations are too rare to make long journeys practical.

A Tesla in pretty much all European countries except Spain or France would almost never need to recharge except at home. A BTW making a big push for fully recyclable vehicals and they want diesel out, this started before the Volkswagon fiasco. Which, I have to say, if German officials didn't know this was going on , then seriously some officials weren't doing their jobs. It is the nature of industry to try to lower their cost and the nature of regulators to make sure they are abiding by the rules in the most economical way (least regulated way) that can be done.

Quote

Fred Lambert- Jun. 14th 2016 8:38 pm ET

It looks like Germany is about to become the first major country to set an official deadline for a ban on gas-powered cars. India recently confirmed that it is evaluating a scheme for all its fleet to be electric by 2030 and both the Dutch government and the Norwegian government are discussing the possibility to ban gas-powered car sales and only allow electric vehicle sales starting also by 2025 [. . . . . . . . . . .]

Update: It looks like the official in question, State Secretary of Economy and Energy, Rainer Baake, was misquoted and that he says that a mandate by 2030 will be necessary to achieve the emission goal without specifying if or when the zero emission mandate will be implemented – we will update if Baake release a statement. https://electrek.co/2016/06/14/all-new-cars-mandated-electric-germany-2030/

http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/27/news/germany-diesel-cars-ban-court-ruling-cities/index.html

There are reasons for doing this are not exactly what you think. While I can make a methane powered, ethane, acetylene, propane, or butane powered vehicle virtually emmissions free (excluding nitrous oxides) it is very difficult (as we have seen from the latest scandel with volkswagon). How you want to prevent this is cold-burning efficient combustion, the best choice is a fuel cell.

Diesels have a problem, because they have a high compression ratio (the center of ignition is very hot), they make more particulates and NOx exhausts. This news story here is the tip of the berg. 

There are two diseases that shorten the working life of workers (which Germany really cares about due to declining fertility rates and xenophobia) that people really don't think are environment related but really are. I could mention the one you think of, lung cancer, but this shortens your work life but also shortens your life. Rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis are also affected by particulate emissions and smog. Studies have found the people living along roads in industrialized areas are at much higher risk for RA, even if they never get cancer or emphysema. Environmental particulates cause inflammation, this can become systemic causing exacerbating other problems (causing lost days at work). The worst affected are the ones you want the most to keep working as they get older. So here is the basic problem . . . .we have (in my case had) been looking at the cause of inflammation for many diseases, almost all the incidence rate in the population is on the rise, in some places in the magnitude range. In a few cases with more common diseases we have the numbers to define common but not all causes. In most cases we don't have the sample size to see the environmental causes. However the identical twins separated at birth studies tell us that in the case of most inflammatory diseases, environment is about half the cause are known. For example in systemic sclerosis, most types, environmental pollution is suspected. In heavily polluted areas people tend to stay indoors, this can be a risk factor for type 1 diabetes  (particular in children born from maternal parents who avoid sunlight) .  There is 100 other diseases out there were particulates and NOx could be a part of the risk, we just will never have the numbers to prove it. . . .  So, yeah, I agree, diesel should be a fuel reserved for regulated industries and scrubbed emissions.

But going electric also goes along with Germany's desire to be largely run on alternative energies in the near future. But will not eliminate all pollution, the tires on cars also create emissions as the rubber on the tires is ablated or oxidizes as a function of exposure to the elements (including smog). And so for a complete emissions free environment one needs.

Big thumbs up to Germany for looking at a problem from the social costs perspective, first.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Scotius said:

I asked my instructor today. His answer boils down to: "Ask your doctor." Without green light from the physician you can't start the driving course. If he'll say OK - you can get driving license with autism.

So you from Poland too :D

I wonder why if not mention  AS what can be consequence ;-) , I'm sure the doctor would almost certainly agree, I just do not want to give money to this medically-bureaucratic mafia and I can earn 200 zlotys for a set of simple research, I think too much, I was younger and a little more rebellious I do not want to buy a ticket for the bus / tram because it was a pity to spend that PLN 1.5 from my pocket ticket (it was not that my pocket money was small for Polish conditions, because it was not, I did not just want to spend it on a ticket; -), or I bought DVDs with computer games in the electronic bazaar because it was cheaper, only when I started studying at the university I started to buy them like you in normal game stores, but then I was a little rebellious teenager, I did not differ in this respect from the other from our Polish adolescents NT 

Edited by Pawelk198604

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2 hours ago, Nibb31 said:

Teslas are extremely expensive in Europe and are huge by European standards, which makes them impractical for most purposes. It would be a pain to drive and park one in a European city and the fast charging stations are too rare to make long journeys practical.

They're incredibly popular in Norway, I believe.

The Model 3, OTOH, is not very big, it's about like my wife's BMW 3 series (I know a guy who has his Model 3). I have to say, I saw a surprising number of Range Rovers in Italy a couple years ago when we were there, though compared to some US SUVs, I never think of my rover as big.

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1 hour ago, tater said:

They're incredibly popular in Norway, I believe.

The Model 3, OTOH, is not very big, it's about like my wife's BMW 3 series (I know a guy who has his Model 3). I have to say, I saw a surprising number of Range Rovers in Italy a couple years ago when we were there, though compared to some US SUVs, I never think of my rover as big.

Norway has an very high car tax, it adds up to 100% tax on expensive cars but electrical cars has no tax. Making the tesla very interesting if you want an nice car. 
You also has other serious benefit like no road toll and free parking a lot of places.
Fuel prices are European high level but think the price an benefits are more important
 

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On 11 March, 2018 at 8:58 AM, GDJ said:

It's not uncommon for where I live to dip down to -40C, and that kills batteries quicker than Elvis or Janis Joplin. That's our problem. For us a Hybrid makes more sense.

As a Winnipegger who owns an electric car, I can truthfully say that operating an electric at those temperatures is completely fine.  Yes, the range is reduced, but as long as you account for that in planning when you plug in, then there's no problem.  Of course, take that with a grain of salt snow, as my daily commute is never more than 40km.

I own a Mistubishi I-miev.  Other owners of this car have done the math and according to them (I'll find the source if I have to), after 7 years of operation you start 'making money'.  No maintenance costs, no belts, only fluids are for the mechanical brakes (which are hardly used anyways because of regenerative braking).  Plus I live in a place where all electricity is hydro, so it's quite cheap.  I am lucky.

Just wanted to say I absolutely love the car, and while I understand there's some of negatives regarding the production and use of the things, I like believing that early-adoption has enough benefits to outweigh those.

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39 minutes ago, justidutch said:

Other owners of this car have done the math and according to them (I'll find the source if I have to), after 7 years of operation you start 'making money'.

On the Prius its after 80,000 miles, but assumes gas prices of around 3$/gallon.

And thats really the deal because after 8 years you can drop your collision insurance, I paid cash so no interest anyway, the car is basically a dollar a day to operate, you can't even get a ride inside the smallest zone on a city bus for that. The quality of the vehicle and lack of wear and tear on the power-train is an unforeseen consequence of owning hybrids or electric cars with regenerative braking. In a hybrid the second you lift your foot off the gas the car is undergoing regenerative braking, therefore is brakes over slight longer distance with slower decelerations. Once people start getting used to these cars only the poorer purchasers and sports car afficionados would buy non-electric vehicles.

I should add the reason why I bought Prius is I typically keep car for 20 years, so even at lower prices it eventually pays back what you put into it, however considering the lower repair costs its actually overperforming. This car was for my wife, who is light on the gas but heavy on the brake, so not having to repair brakes after 120,000 miles is a big reward for me. Also she never drives on the freeway, and I tend to drive the speed limit.

 

 

Edited by PB666

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