Why the Hate Towards Mods

[Camelotking524]

Mods are awesome! KAS allows you to make a working true skycrane. Mechjeb give you custom windows to display the information you need, without constantly switching to the map view. Protractor allows you to plot your interplanetary missions. Procedural fairing allows you to create a lunar module adapter for your Saturn V mock ups. NovaPunch give you the parts to make a Saturn V mock up. Kethane allows you to mine for resources.

I can keep going with all that mods allow you to do. If you want to limit yourself to stock for whatever reason, thats fine. But don't look down on me because I like to have more options then what stock allows.

[macegee]

I hate and love mods at the same time. Because they're not stock, and gonna turn into vaporware at some point or another. So I use mods, but don't get attached to them, and don't have persistent game save throughout game updates. This would probably change after 1.0, when mods will "settle down".

[doubleg]

Hey whatever floats your boat (or rocket). It really comes down to how you want to play it. I think like mods that expand KSP, but at the same time keep it challenging. I have Deadly re-entry, FAR, and Ioncross all three of which make KSP much harder, but I also have mods like Kerbal flight engineer, mechjeb (my rule is i can only use it on unmanned flights), and Kerbal alarm clock. It's about what's fun for you.

[HeadHunter67]

I think that most of the objections to MechJeb stem from the fact that it encourages lazy behavior.

You're playing a game - have you forgotten that? I was unaware that there was someone to whom my fun is accountable. aside from myself.

What do you say to the people who contend that video games "encourage lazy behavior"?

It does not HELP a new player to learn how to dock, it does it for them, making it possible to play the game without ever learning even the basics of orbital mechanics.

I beg to differ - I learned quite a bit about the game by watching how MJ did it. And during that time, I wasn't gated by my inability to do them unassisted, so the learning curve didn't stand in the way of having fun.

I used MechJeb a lot for a while, but I quickly grew tired of 'playing' KSP that way. I would let MJ launch my ship into orbit while I would do something else. Basically, I ended up watching MJ play the game for me, and I quickly lost interest.

That's a possible outcome - but it says more about the mindset of the player than the mod. Some people would rather build things, and leave the flying to the computer. They're unlikely to lose interest just because of an autopilot. In fact, they may be less likely to quit in frustration because they have to do all that other stuff to make their station or moonbase. Other people might decide "I want to learn how to do that myself" and make the effort to learn the skills - and in the meantime they can continue playing.

However, I can see that some people might enjoy flying all flights with MJ, kind of like being a mission controller on the ground, issuing orders to astronauts and probes. To each his own I guess.

Your last sentence says all that needs to be said on the matter - "to each, his own". I don't think anyone should worry about what others think about how they choose to play their own game. This is a single-player sandbox, not a competitive multiplayer game.

[Temstar]

If each to his own, then why does someone who put "done with pure stock" under their ribbon bother anyone?

[Sandworm]

If each to his own, then why does someone who put "done with pure stock" under their ribbon bother anyone?

Because they are lazy an lack the self-discipline required to not exploit game-changing mods. To me, "pure stock" also means they have abandoned any attempt to compensate for KSP's shortcomings. They launch ridiculous craft fully of asparagus staging then turn around and claim hardcore status because they did not use mods.

[KC5SDY]

I do not play online games very often for this same reason. Of all the games I have played, FPS games are my favorite. Knowing that some little twerp that does nothing but play game 'X' 24/7 thinks they have the right to grind my teeth in the curb because I do not play like them, is the same as being bullied. I have a life. I have a job. I have a family to take care of. I am not a 5 year old with nothing better to do than have my X-Box be my parent. For the same reason, I do not post in forums as much. I have already been insulted in these forums becaused I overlooked something in another post and asked about it. I play my games at the difficulty level that is comfortable for me and where it remains enjoyable. It only effects me, not you. If that means having "God mode" on, so be it. I am out to have fun.

KSP is no different. I play it at the difficulty I feel comfortable with. I use MJ, Kethane, Enginner, and FuelTastic. MJ helps out a lot and has taught me a lot. For what I have learned from MJ, I do it myself. Everything else, MJ does. No, it does not make me lazy. Kethane gives me a challenge. Yes, sending probes, sattelites, stations, and bases are one aspect. Kethane gives it an added layer to sending everything to all the planets and moons. Enginner gives me the data MJ does not and helps with giving me the numbers I need. FuelTastic is a God send for me. Yes, I know that you cannot convert energy into LOX. Without it, I would not be as far ahead as I am now and would still be trying to figure out how to get enough fuel into orbit to use later and that in itself has started to make me want to put the game down in frustration. Getting into orbit is a royal pain in the patooty for me. I rely on it when my numbers do not add up to what they should have. I use it as a fall back.

Coming from someone that has the skill set to do my job, raise my family, and pay the bills, if I have to tweak a game a little bit to enjoy it, so be it. The ribbons I show in my signature are what I have obtained on the difficulty level I have assigned myself. To me, using developer window is cheating. Using mods are not. I know I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I admit it. You have no right to tell me how to play my games. I will be more than impressed knowing you have done all you have on your own with stock parts and no mod help what so ever. Good for you. That is my ultimate goal as well. In the meantime, I will explore my solar system the way I want to. If you want to flex yoru muscles and feel the need to insult me for it, that is where you have issues. I know it is easier to dish out insults to make yourself feel superiour than to be a better person by offering suggestions and being humble.

I know, I kind of went on a tangent. that is my take on mods. There are some that are needed and some that just make life plain easier.

[Temstar]

Because they are lazy an lack the self-discipline required to not exploit game-changing mods.

What? As opposed to... using mods, but having the self-discipline to only use mods that are not game changing? Is that what you're trying to get at? If non-game changing mods are not "exploiting", then surely all stock is not "exploiting" either?

To me, "pure stock" also means they have abandoned any attempt to compensate for KSP's shortcomings. They launch ridiculous craft fully of asparagus staging then turn around and claim hardcore status because they did not use mods.

This statement really bothers me because "compensate for KSP's shortcomings" could basically mean anything you want. "The lack of nuclear pulse propulsion in stock is a shortcoming!" I could say and insist that Orion drive should have been available in the stock game since it's 1960's technology here on Earth, never mind that fact that if Orion drive are available without restriction it renders almost all chemical engines obsolete.

What one person sees as "shortcoming", another person sees it as a fascinating engineering challenged to be tackled with the tools available at hand. Before 0.20 everyone knew that stock helicopter was not possible and so required propeller mod, until one creative person looked at the issue, declared "no" and then built one with stock parts. Now everyone know that stock helicopters are possible and new ways of creating propellers out of stock parts continue to be invented (witness the recent breakthrough with reaction wheel powered propellers). This aspect of KSP where you solve problems previously thought impossible with creative engineering solution is very much the meat of the game in many people's eyes. Stock just happens to provide both an equal and comparable set of problems as well as an equal comparable set of tools to tackle these problems. That's why people are proud of things they've done in stock - because there are these engineering challenges open to everyone and they've come up with their own unique solution to the problem with the same tool that's available to everyone.

What you see as "ridiculous craft fully of asparagus staging", others see fine pieces of engineering taken to an art form designed to push back the Tyranny of Rocket Equation using crappy rockets parts with such poor performance that no rocket engineer in real life would touch with a ten foot titanium pole.

[BostLabs]

If you want to play the game fully stock, then that is great!

If you want to play the game with every mod You can squeeze into your game folders and still run KSP, Then that is great!

If you want to play with just a few mods, then That is great!

The only person it should matter to is you. If someone wants to give you a hard time because you use MJ or KW rocketry parts, then that is THEIR problem, not yours.

I use as little or as many mods as I want. I could really care less what anyone has to say about it. It is my game and my enjoyment of the game that matters to me.

Heck I've used hyperedit from time to time. Horrors upon horrors! Who cares?

How does it impact you that I or someone else does that? It doesn't.

If someone puts up a massive space station in LKO using hyperedit and it is a fantastic space station I'm going to give him kudos for the great craftwork.

On the other hand, if someone pilots a fast lander through one of the Mun's arches and survives I'm giving him kudus as well.

Edited September 12, 2013 by BostLabs

[Aghanim]

Well I usually use MechJeb in ascent navball guidance for my asparagus staging launcher, and in automatic ascent mode if the payload is long enough (?!) Launching a lot of satellites manually is tedious. And I use Lazor systems for interplanetary transfer burn planner

[AlamoVampire]

What it all boils down to is this: we paid our fee to play, so we shall play how we see fit. This is single player in a sand box. If you do not like me using blue shovels and blue buckets because you prefer red ones, then get out of my sand box. If you don't like mods, have it your way in YOUR sand box. I will have it my way in mine.

[HeadHunter67]

This statement really bothers me because "compensate for KSP's shortcomings" could basically mean anything you want.

So could "cheating"... that's the point. Relative terms are meaningless in this kind of game, because how one person plays doesn't ever affect anyone else in the least.

It's no different than many other things in real life - if how someone conducts their own life doesn't actually affect anyone else, the only people who feel a need to pass judgment on it are those who are insecure about their own place in things. It's sadder still when we're talking about a game.

What you see as "ridiculous craft fully of asparagus staging", others see fine pieces of engineering taken to an art form designed to push back the Tyranny of Rocket Equation using crappy rockets parts with such poor performance that no rocket engineer in real life would touch with a ten foot titanium pole.

And what you see as "cheating", others see as "enjoying their own game the way they want to, because it doesn't affect how others play in the least". See how it's all relative?

[Temstar]

And what you see as "cheating", others see as "enjoying their own game the way they want to, because it doesn't affect how others play in the least". See how it's all relative?

So how is getting upset at people declaring their ribbons are done with all stock or challenges with blanket ban on plugin considered reasonable? They're not trying to assert superiority, that's just how they choose to play.

[King Arthur]

So how is getting upset at people declaring their ribbons are done with all stock or challenges with blanket ban on plugin considered reasonable? They're not trying to assert superiority, that's just how they choose to play.

I for one couldn't care less if someone played "pure stock" or not, just like I couldn't care less about what mods someone plays KSP with. In my opinion, anyone who gets upset at people playing pure stock is just as bad as the people who get upset at people who play with mods.

[KerbMav]

So how is getting upset at people declaring their ribbons are done with all stock or challenges with blanket ban on plugin considered reasonable? They're not trying to assert superiority, that's just how they choose to play.

Yes, I agree, hostilities here are either way inappropriate.

But depending on the tone, the origin or cause of the hostilities might be something else.

Simply declaring "ribbons, stock only" is different from "ribbons, without cheaty mods" as in "You dont deserve to wear this uniform, tank!" (nerd-points for recognizing the reference)

Challenges can have a set of rules to make the different contributions comparable - if the challenge aims for comparability or to set level ground for every participant, it is easier to forbid all mods then to come up with a never complete black list.

If a player wants to participate in a challenge but not abide to the rules, he is free to launch his own challenge with a "all mods allowed" or "only mods x,y,z" rule set.

I think most posters are not offended by different playstyles, but the way others show disrespect towards another person for the way they play a game. (similarities to other political/social topics like: *stopped by forum rules*)

[Toastie_Buns]

I look at it this way; when a mod is good enough for a game, it seems like Squad incorporate it in game. I don't know the workings behind this, or maybe they just come to the same conclusion as a mod when adding in new game ideas.

A good example of this is the Mission control mod, and low and behold we have an un-clickable building in the stock game. Y'all know what THAT'S gonna be for.

Mods like the Kethane mod will inevitably find themselves in game in the future, though perhaps looking different or perhaps mining different substance. It's only logical; because mining space has been a goal of the real space program since the 70's and it's a massive mainstay in most sci-fi. Or even the Engineer mod, which is a literal MUST HAVE. When real scientists and engineers design rockets, they're already having to work out TWR and how it'll handle in lower gravity. So it's safe to assume that these mods will eventually make it in game, where in each update they'll be bugfixed and maintained.

tl;dr: Install sensible mods and you'll probably get a nice surprise in the upcoming updates. Install retarded mods and be prepared to maintain them yourself.

[Monkeh]

I do hope Squad integrate some of these mods into the game. They have a sub assembly manager thingy working right now, maybe in the next update we'll have it ready, so that's bloody awesome.

I'm hoping for a squad made engineer, kethane, alarmclock, attachment, baloons, etc. Don't want a mechjeb myself as flying stuff is the most fun in the game imho, don't want to pass it off to my CPU. (Yes, it's fine if you do, doesn't bother me at all).

Obviously they have a lot of work to do on lots of other things so I'm sure they'll only be adding things they think are essential to enjoy the game.

After full release I would imagine stuff like Kethane and Attachment system may well be developed and released as DLC...we shall see.

(Any DLC will have me throwing money at Squad I hasten to add...take it...no go on, take all of the monies pls!)

[Xentoe]

I see too not the problem.

I mean hello, KSP is not even Multiplayer.

So noone gets a disadvantage from if someone uses Mods or not.

(I would love a KSP Multiplayer, to play with my girlfriend (she loves the game too).

I like Mechjeb not, but hey, that is my opinion.

In Opposite to this I love Mods that add a bit more sci fi Tec, like the (very detailed and good) Warp Engene mod, or the cool Ram Scoop Engene.

sure on first view, they sound to powerfull but (at least the Warpengene Mod) is very detailed and needs several work to make it work good (Like placing Science labs with Intelligent Kerbals, collecting Antimatter In space to power the Warpegngene in a "Acceptable" way.....

It is simple a point of taste.

Some like it original, and some like it more fancy.

Some like to "fast foreward" annoying repeat Tasks (like the orbit making and docking) some like it to do by hand.

So leT`s everyone be happy with it`s own stuff, and part their joy about (what in eatch persons) joy about their vehicles.

Why is a a Modded Spacecraft, lesser cool than a no Mod craft?

Bye the way, this is a big problem in the german communety I`m in... very snobby in this point, annoys real.

Me in person like to do at begin all the hard way (No real interferring mods) and try all myselfe manual (god did I had long to try with docking but I made it all myselfe *proud looks*). But I will not judge someone who wanna use a mod for it, hey all what counts here is fun. This is not a scientiffic universety test... this is a fungame, and Top Priorety is: IT MUST MAKE FUN TO YOU. Everything else comes after this point.

That are my 2 Cents

Edited September 12, 2013 by Xentoe

[DChurchill]

I think that most of the objections to MechJeb stem from the fact that it encourages lazy behavior.

It does not HELP a new player to learn how to dock, it does it for them, making it possible to play the game without ever learning even the basics of orbital mechanics.

What concern is it of yours (or mine or anyone else's on this board for that matter) how someone else learns to play, or what they choose to learn or not to learn? Their time is their own and it's not yours to validate.

[HeadHunter67]

So how is getting upset at people declaring their ribbons are done with all stock or challenges with blanket ban on plugin considered reasonable? They're not trying to assert superiority, that's just how they choose to play.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm simply trying to illustrate how that door swings both ways. Those people aren't including that caveat for their own edification - they're including it in the hope that others will be more impressed by the accomplishment. Honestly, that's really all the ribbons are about after all, isn't it?

I like to show off what I've done, but I keep it in perspective. I don't expect everyone will be impressed, and honestly, I don't care if they are not. I hope that my efforts can yield something that entertains or interests others, but I don't worry if it doesn't happen.

I was just trying to say that players on either side of the issue can be elitist and/or oppressive, because it's inevitably relative in this sort of game.

Those ribbons people put in their signatures are stupid (who gives a fµck what planets you've been on), completely meaningless as anyone could just make some up, and make the posts unnecessary big.

*I* care. I don't care if you care or not. And my ribbons don't take up any more space than your post, and are at least as worthwhile - plus nicer to look at. They represent accomplishments - can you say the same about your post?

Edited September 12, 2013 by HeadHunter67

[Camelotking524]

Now we are arguing about ribbons? Its just a game people. A game most people play because at one point in our lives, we wanted to go into outer space and play among the stars.

Does it really matter how we got, as long as we all had fun doing it.

[HeadHunter67]

I don't think we're "arguing about ribbons". But it's clear that some people can't make their point without hating on how others play, and I agree with you that this should not be encouraged.

I'm a big proponent of individual choice in sandbox games, and I don't like it when people aren't nice to each other. It makes me "not nice" too. I agree that we should try to seek a common ground rather than allow individual insecurities and parochial points of view to spoil that.

[Motokid600]

I build really large craft. And because of that I need even larger crafts to bring these heavy payloads to orbit. I simply cannot do this with stock parts because of Unity's CPU limitations. I ask this...How many stock parts would it take to bring a 450 ton payload into an 80km orbit? A fps crippling amount. I can do it under 300 parts easy with part mods. So.. that's why I use mods. I don't like limits.

[Temstar]

I build really large craft. And because of that I need even larger crafts to bring these heavy payloads to orbit. I simply cannot do this with stock parts because of Unity's CPU limitations. I ask this...How many stock parts would it take to bring a 450 ton payload into an 80km orbit? A fps crippling amount. I can do it under 300 parts easy with part mods. So.. that's why I use mods. I don't like limits.

It's funny you picked the 450 ton number since that just happens to be the weight of the ISS. No real life rocket past present or planned for the foreseeable future will be able to lift the 450 ton ISS into orbit in one go, but structures that big still get built in via on orbit assembly. Similarly to build a 450 ton craft in orbit in KSP is completely possible (and without CPU melting launch vehicles) using the same on orbit assembly as in real life. Even if said vehicle need good structural integrity to survive strong acceleration it will be possible via multi-docking. It's all a matter of engineering.

I have a 200 ton modular surface base nearly completed on the Mun. This represent an even greater demand on total lift capacity than 450 tons in LKO, yet it could be done all stock using more than 20 heavy lift launch vehicle launches. There are limits with stock parts in the game, but 450 ton station is well within that limit. If you want to use mods to lift a 450 ton station that's fine, but it's not a matter of "I have no choice but to use mods because stock is limiting me" in this case.

[Motokid600]

Well... the 450 ton module is one of three main fuel tanks for the station which is coming up on 4k tons last I checked so im not really going for the realistic approach lol. What you say still stands though and it is true. But the fact cannot be denied that mods such as American, Soviet, Nova can reduce part counts when it comes to lifters.