Fukushima disaster.

[Voyager55]

Why the hell does no one care or even talk about the Fukushima disaster on the internet? It's a pretty serious problem. 300 tons of radioactive water leaking into the pacific every day,for maybe 2 years.Sounds like it's worth discussing.

[NGTOne]

300 tons vs. the entire Pacific ocean - sure, it's an ecological disaster, but it's highly localized - keep in mind that the water will disperse at roughly a cubic rate, which means that you'll end up with a COMPLETELY unnoticeable increase in radiation over the volume of any significant body of water. Sure, near the plant the fish might die while it's still leaking, but that effect will disperse INCREDIBLY quickly, especially as soon as the water shuts off, but even while it's still running.

[pxi]

You might also wonder about the relative lack of publicity that Sellafield's dumping of nuclear waste into the Irish sea garners. Consider this bit from wikipedia's entry on the Irish Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea#Radioactivity):

The Irish Sea has been described by Greenpeace as the most radioactively contaminated sea in the world with some "eight million litres of nuclear waste" discharged into it each day from Sellafield reprocessing plants, contaminating seawater, sediments and marine life.

Compared to Chernobyl, the Japanese seem to be handling Fukashima quite well in my opinion.

[Kryten]

When we start getting stuff like this;

that's when there's something worth worrying about. Just worrying whenever something is 'radioactive' in a completely unquantified way is pointless. It's like the people saying Fukushima is as bad as Chernobyl because people are getting 'radioactive particles' in Tokyo-with a bit of actual quantification, we see it's about the same level people got in Sweden after Chernobyl.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Kryten

[Bobhendly]

The Japanese will do something, I'm sure.. They Care about nature so much! Look at all the oceanic research vessles they have!

[OtherDalfite]

OP, were you aware that water is one of the best combatants for radiation shielding? The media went crazy over Fukushima and people gobbled it up like candy, further reinforcing fear of nuclear power. The amount of actual radiation released by Fukushima is minute compared to Chernobyl. Most, if not all the radioactive material in Fukushima was in a protective shielding to protect against things like this.

[stupid_chris]

Aye, it's something to keep an eye on for sure.

Just don't forget to not wander on the political aspect of the thing guys, we don't want to be closing this.

[Sid]

It's mostly Tritium, check out the half life of that particular isotope.

I've probably inhaled enough of that stuff to stun a heffalump while changing out reticle illuminators on military weaponsights and I'm still here.

[OdinYggd]

Have to factor in though, the containment at Fukushima did confine most of the nuclear materials.

The radioactive materials that are getting out are almost entirely material that is dissolved in used cooling water- they still don't have a way to purify this water on site and have been merely storing it in tanks all around the premesis until such equipment could be made available.

It is these tanks that are the sources of the leaks.

Even with that major problem, the bulk of the long-lived nuclear materials have remained safely inside the reactor and pools where it belongs. What you are mostly dealing with is isotopes that are water soluble such as iodine and caesium that are easily carried by water- but also happen to be fairly easy to find and remove once the process equipment to do so is built. Tritium would be present as well, but probably not in a huge quantity now that the fuel is sub-critical and the water is not getting a huge amount of neutron irradiation.

Also just found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onagawa_Nuclear_Power_Plant

Apparently this power plant was in fact closer to the epicenter of the quake than Fukushima was, yet survived the earthquake with only minor damage none of which affected critical systems.

And not only did it survive the quake, protected by its 14 meter seawall from the 13 meter tsunami, they even used some of the unused facilities there to shelter residents of the nearby town- which had been obliterated by the Tsunami that the plant successfully survived.

This could actually prove to be a turning point for nuclear power- because this plant survived the quake through good engineering and conforming to recommendations regarding safety improvements, it shows very clearly that a lot of nuclear accidents result not from the inherent danger of nuclear power- but from mismanagement on the part of their operators resulting in cutting corners on safety measures.

Edited September 13, 2013 by OdinYggd

[air805ronin]

Fukushima might have had an easier time as well if they hadn't of ignored certain industry suggestions regarding the construction of their plant, especially a suggestion to extend their sea wall from 13 feet to 15. GE was one of the companies that issued that warning, but unlike the U.S. and many European countries these suggestions can be ignored in Japan. Regulatory agencies in the U.S. and Europe make it mandatory to fix these things. If you look at the safety record of that particular plant you'll see a history of issues. Both investigations have shown that as well. Both investigations also showed that a better response from the local and national government would have made the situation a lot better than it is now.

Being scared of radiation is normal. I was trained to be able to continue fighting a war in a post nuclear, biological, or chemical attack world and I'm still scared of all three. However the realities of this incident is that it is bad, and there were massive screw ups, but largely the situation is under control at the moment.

The people most against nuclear power plants are the same ones who understand them the least. Once you learn more about them you'll start seeing how most massive issues at these plants have been a result of a lack of knowledge, negligence, and a lack of threat recognition.

Now excuse me while I strap a seat onto a nuclear rocket and see how far I can get Jeb.

[drakesdoom]

Man some radioactive stuff is getting in the ocean? Quick go jump in the cooling pool where the water will protect you from the radiation!

http://what-if.xkcd.com/29/

tldr: Swimming in the ocean off the plant would likely result in a lower radiation does then sitting at your computer right now.

[pxi]

Yeah it's more a case that the radioactive isotopes pass into the food chain that I'd be worrying about. Not the radiation itself.

Edited September 13, 2013 by pxi

[lajoswinkler]

Radiation presents zero problems. Radioactive matter is something to be concerned about. Of course the ocean will disperse it. It's the Pacific ocean.

It's the top of the food chain animals that will accumulate certain radioactive matter so their tissue will have enough contamination to cross the legal limit and that's a big problem for Japanese economy. (nothing will glow, that's a myth)

It's not tritium. It's cesium-137 and strontium-90 that's biologically active. The dangers of iodine-131 have passed a long time ago because it decays completely in few months. The primary danger are the biologically active elements, mimicking sodium and calcium.

All those nutters had to do was to elevate the walls and raise the electrical equipment. Their tidal wave wall was too low and the water flooded the stuff that takes care of the cooling after a shutdown. Japan has this huge social problem with people being extremely reluctant to report stuff not following the rules. People in general don't like to point out such things, but Japan... Too much of such behaviour.

The radiological impact of Fukushima is pathetic compared to Chernobyl, but the overall economic impact might be worse. When stupid people fear stuff, **** happens.

[Voyager55]

300 tons of radioactive water every day for over two years is roughly 219,000 tons of high radioactive water.And the contaminated water is said to be at levels of 5 Sieverts (Enough to cause death withing 4 hours) Even if you're exposed for less time then 4 hours you're near guaranteed to die from radiation poisoning anyway.Also the status of the melted down cores is currently unknown but speculation has been made that they have melted through their enclosures into the ground and are heating and contaminating ground water causing aerosol radiation to seep out of the earth (This is known as the China Syndrome) Also if the core is hot enough it could separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in the water causing combustion. SO in short underground radioactive explosions... (I wouldn't recommend eating any pacific fish either )

[Kryten]

(nothing will glow, that's a myth)

If you're referring to my picture, that's not what it is. It's what happened when someone took a fish from the bikini atoll lagoon, shortly after the crossroads baker nuclear test, and left it on some x-ray film overnight. Notice the scales are producing an image independently of the stomach contents, showing assimilation of radioisotopes into the body. Also notice nobody's been making similar artworks around fukushima lately, as they easily would be able to if certain people in this thread were correct.

[lajoswinkler]

300 tons of radioactive water every day for over two years is roughly 219,000 tons of high radioactive water.And the contaminated water is said to be at levels of 5 Sieverts (Enough to cause death withing 4 hours) Even if you're exposed for less time then 4 hours you're near guaranteed to die from radiation poisoning anyway.Also the status of the melted down cores is currently unknown but speculation has been made that they have melted through their enclosures into the ground and are heating and contaminating ground water causing aerosol radiation to seep out of the earth (This is known as the China Syndrome) Also if the core is hot enough it could separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in the water causing combustion. SO in short underground radioactive explosions... (I wouldn't recommend eating any pacific fish either )

Sieverts are for measuring radiation. You need to look for becquerels, which are the number of decays per second. That gives you a rough estimate of the danger. Rough because not all decays are equally energetic.

5 Sv for how much water and how close? You see, it proves nothing.

A bucket of water that shows 5 Sv at 1 cm distance could be contaminated by iodine-131. Leave that bucket for a few months and the levels will drop very low.

But if it's contaminated with strontium-90, then you've got a huge problem because it takes hundreds of years before the activity drops close to zero.

I've never heard of such news that the cores have touched the ground. Some (one, maybe two, not sure) are damaged and are leaking water, but there's no evidence for what you're saying. The cores are cold. Too much time has passed and the most furious products have decayed. They are warm and they shouldn't be able to boil water.

There certainly aren't any explosions. The biggest problem they have to deal with are huge amounts of highly contaminated water that has filled various parts of the plant and is leaking into the sea.

If you're referring to my picture, that's not what it is. It's what happened when someone took a fish from the bikini atoll lagoon, shortly after the crossroads baker nuclear test, and left it on some x-ray film overnight. Notice the scales are producing an image independently of the stomach contents, showing assimilation of radioisotopes into the body. Also notice nobody's been making similar artworks around fukushima lately, as they easily would be able to if certain people in this thread were correct.

Oh, I haven't seen this photo before. Very interesting. The fish was obviously highly contaminated with very heavy isotopes like einsteinium and other, produced by atomic bombs.

Yes, you're right. If the situation was extremely bad, these photos would leak out.

[Mecha Pants]

I'm most worried about the spent fuel rod storage situation on the fukushima power plant site. The pools being used were originally designed for much smaller quantities of spent fuel, and were damaged during the tsunami, exposing several of the containers to open air, damaging their cases. Also, the computer controlled crane used to move these containers was destroyed, requiring all of these containers to be removed manually. If these fuel rods are not removed with EXTREME caution, they may start an uncontrollable chain reaction and release amounts of radioactive material that would make everything thus far look like a match compared to a house fire.

[lajoswinkler]

I'm most worried about the spent fuel rod storage situation on the fukushima power plant site. The pools being used were originally designed for much smaller quantities of spent fuel, and were damaged during the tsunami, exposing several of the containers to open air, damaging their cases. Also, the computer controlled crane used to move these containers was destroyed, requiring all of these containers to be removed manually. If these fuel rods are not removed with EXTREME caution, they may start an uncontrollable chain reaction and release amounts of radioactive material that would make everything thus far look like a match compared to a house fire.

Not anymore. That can happen only with freshly removed fuel.

The danger drops at an exponential rate. It's safe now.

[jwenting]

"Fukushima might have had an easier time as well if they hadn't of ignored certain industry suggestions regarding the construction of their plant, especially a suggestion to extend their sea wall from 13 feet to 15"

always so nice in 20-20 hindsight... When constructed it more than conformed to every safety requirement then known to be relevant.

In fact it survived the actual earthquake intact, which was 2 orders of magnitude stronger than what it had been designed to survive.

What caused the problems was when the fuel tanks for the auxiliary generators were contaminated by seawater after being flooded by a rogue wave over twice as high as the highest ever recorded, and 4 times as high as the required design limits for the facility (the facility was designed to withstand waves twice as high as the legal limit).

What hit is is now known to have been 2 superimposed tsunamis, a phenomenon thought impossible when the plant was constructed 40 or so years ago.

Overall, it held up surprisingly well, released far fewer contaminants into the environment than first thought (and later claimed by the anti-nuclear lobby), and only suffered any trouble at all because 1) it got hit at the worst possible moment during a maintenance cycle and 2) the external infrastructure around the plant (powerhouses, generators, alternators, etc.) were not built to nearly the same design specs as the plant itself.

[Diche Bach]

Obviously, if enough money is spent, nuclear power can be done 'safely,' meaning a very, very low rate of accidents. As I understand it, Fukushima is an example of the exact opposite: the very real risks when a nuclear power plant is poorly/cheaply designed, and/or not properly(expensively) maintained and operated.

Having said that, I have to admit that it makes me wonder: how many other potential Fukushima's and Chernobyl's are there out there right now, which pose a real risk of similar disasters sometime in the future?

Fukushima may be 'minute' relative to Chernobyl, but it is still a catastrophe of epic proportions. I was under the impression that a large area around the plant is now an exclusion zone? Perhaps not as much land as that which received high doses in and around Chernobyl, but a significant chunk of Earth that is now dangerous to human life

On 11 March 2011, a nuclear emergency was declared by the Japanese government. The government initially set in place a 4-stage evacuation process: a prohibited access area out to 3 km from the plant, an on-alert area 3–20 km from the plant, and an evacuation prepared area 20–30 km from the plant. These evacuation areas were based on radioactivity levels above 20 mSv. On day one of the disaster nearly 134,000 people who lived between 3–20 km from the plant were evacuated. 4 days later an additional 354,000 who lived between 20–30 km from the plant were evacuated. Later, Prime Minister Naoto Kan issued instructions that people within a 20 km (12 mi) zone around the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant must leave, and urged that those living between 20 km and 30 km from the site to stay indoors.[182][183] The latter groups were also urged to evacuate on 25 March 2011.[184] . . .

On 22 August 2011, a spokesman of the Japanese Government mentioned the possibility, that some areas of the evacuation zone around the nuclear plant for "could stay for some decades a forbidden zone". According to the Japanese newspaper Yomiuri Shimbun the Japanese government was planning to buy some properties from civilians to store radioactive waste and materials that had become radioactive after the accidents.[193][194] Chiaki Takahashi, Japan's foreign minister, criticized foreign medias reports over accidents in Fukushima Daichii as overdone and excessive. But Takahashi added that "he can understand the concerns of foreign countries over recent developments at the nuclear plant, including the radioactive contamination of seawater".[195]

So . . . I'm not exactly sure if the zero to 20km zone has been 'permanently' evacuated or not; but it sounds that way.

I consider that to be very, VERY serious.

[pxi]

I believe that some of the exclusion zone restrictions have already been lifted, but they are encountering issues getting residents to move back, which doesn't exactly surprise me.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/decontamination-of-fukushima-hotspots-costly-and-complex

[Diche Bach]

I believe that some of the exclusion zone restrictions have already been lifted, but they are encountering issues getting residents to move back, which doesn't exactly surprise me.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/decontamination-of-fukushima-hotspots-costly-and-complex

So very sad. I thought this respondent to that article captured the main issue.

BertieWoosterAug. 18, 2013 - 07:43AM JST

If you figure all the above in, nuclear reactors don't provide cheap power, do they?

In the long run it's very, very expensive.

[drakesdoom]

Did you read the article? It clearly says that the area is only about as radioactive as a mountain top, which if you use a microwave is probably cleaner than your kitchen. People are not moving back because they are scared.

[lajoswinkler]

Most of the area is safe now. It was iodine-131 that was the main issue. It is volatile and one of the main fission products that gets out in the case the containment is breached, or it might be released intentionally to lower pressure in the main loop.

This is the reason governmental organizations give free iodide pills to the nearby residents of every facility that might release I-131.

Other, poorly volatile products and products with low biological and geological mobility stay close to the source of contamination and will be washed to the sea.

It's the fear of people that is to blame. I find it interesting. Lots of people in corrupt Ukraine wanted to go back into really contaminated areas but weren't allowed, and here we have modern day Japan, weak or nonexistent pollution and people are freaking out.

[Diche Bach]

Yes I read the article and what I gather is that it is not entirely clear that the area is truly 'clean' of radiation. For example

The mushrooms that used to provide a livelihood for foragers are now steeped in dangerous levels of cesium. The only jobs on offer in town are menial. Some houses are so mildewed after three summers of abandonment that they need to be torn down

After three years, I would imagine that virtually all of the plant life in that area has integrated cesium into it in some degree. Scraping off the top layer of soil and hosing down houses is hardly going to 'clean' all of the plant life, not to mention

“Decontamination in the true sense of the word is not being carried out,†said Tomoya Yamauchi, a professor of radiation physics at Kobe University. Yamauchi said he found that some decontaminated road surfaces in Fukushima had readings 18 times the target level because caesium had accumulated in cracks in the asphalt.

“I think the government recognizes that Fukushima cannot be returned to how it was.â€Â

If people, particularly young people who might want to have children, are reluctant to go back to an area that was contaminated by radioactive fallout and has been putatively 'decontaminated' I cannot blame them; can you? It seems pretty obvious based on the article that there are still questions about whether the decon efforts really are 'good enough' to place living in the area well below an acceptable threshold, much less TRULY safe and 'back to normal.' Obviously the latter is not the case. The area will never, even with the most herculean efforts possible be completely 'clean.' You'd literally have to kill all the plants and animals and strip the top layer of everything down to a half a meter or so!

“The truth of the matter is that from the European experience (after Chernobyl), remediation factors are disappointing,†said David Sanderson, a professor of environmental science at the University of Glasgow and an expert in radiation, who has made numerous trips to Fukushima to map the fallout.

“And it’s very expensive. I fear there’s a chance the experience in Japan might be pointing to the same conclusion. Unless it succeeds in putting people back in their homes, the benefit is difficult to see.â€Â