(NOT COLD FUSION!) The byproducts of BASIC fusion...

[Idobox]

how is that different from throwing money at crazy ideas from non-credible people?

Well, at least you're not trying to con anyone but your money would be better spent on a nuclear physics book.

[SargeRho]

Meh. Nevermind. Back to lattice fusion!

Which I think plenty of people have made clear as to why it will not work.

[Payload]

I don't understand all of the draw to quack science when there is legitimate science that can and will get to the same place.

Clean, Safe, Free/Nearly Free Energy is what you are after right?

Thorium fueled breed reactors can already provide that. It is established science. I.E. works with our current understanding of physics.

It's safe in the fact that it is a self moderating reaction and it doesn't require external powered cooling. It's Clean in the fact that it is nuclear that doesn't require storage of spent fuel.

It would be cheap or nearly free because we throw away thorium. We actually pay people to haul it off. It is an environmental hazard apparently, once we dig it up from the ground in the environment.

I.E. You are not allowed to put it back once you have dug it up unless you pay for a special permit.

It's abundant. We aren't going to run out. The amount we have just laying around in piles already, could fuel the world for the next couple thousand years at least. Those piles get bigger everyday.

[K^2]

Yes, and used cooking oil is free bio diesel, right? So if we all switch to bio diesel, nobody will ever have to pay for fuel! Except once people start actually using it, it's not actually free. There is a limited supply of Thorium. In fact, with any fissile fuel we'll eventually run into this problem. There is very little of absolutely any kind of it, and with electric consumption growing exponentially with no slowdown in sight, we'll be running out of any fissile fuel.

This isn't to say that Thorium reactors are a bad idea. No, we should build these. But it's not a solution. Fusion energy is a solution for all intents and purposes. We will all cook in waste heat before we get even close to running out of deuterium on this planet. Fusion energy solves our energy supply problem once and for all.

But you are right. We don't have to rely on quacks and pseudoscience. People are doing research on both the alternative fission fuels and on sustainable and economically profitable fusion. There are ways to utilize both, and we are going to utilize both.

[jwenting]

stopped reading when he claimed that kids had built working nuclear fusion reactors for high school science fairs...

[K^2]

stopped reading when he claimed that kids had built working nuclear fusion reactors for high school science fairs...

You should have kept reading, because that really happened.

[Payload]

Yes, and used cooking oil is free bio diesel, right? So if we all switch to bio diesel, nobody will ever have to pay for fuel! Except once people start actually using it, it's not actually free. There is a limited supply of Thorium. In fact, with any fissile fuel we'll eventually run into this problem. There is very little of absolutely any kind of it, and with electric consumption growing exponentially with no slowdown in sight, we'll be running out of any fissile fuel.

This isn't to say that Thorium reactors are a bad idea. No, we should build these. But it's not a solution. Fusion energy is a solution for all intents and purposes. We will all cook in waste heat before we get even close to running out of deuterium on this planet. Fusion energy solves our energy supply problem once and for all.

But you are right. We don't have to rely on quacks and pseudoscience. People are doing research on both the alternative fission fuels and on sustainable and economically profitable fusion. There are ways to utilize both, and we are going to utilize both.

I think you underestimate the amount of thorium we have laying around. The amount we have already extracted, could power our world through exponential growth for the foreseeable future. This isn't cooking oil we are talking about here. More and more is extracted everyday through the mining of all sorts of ore. I'm talking about orders of magnitude more stored energy than all of the fossil fuel stores we have used and are yet to use. We should already have these things. Too bad no Government wants a nuclear reactor that doesn't make fuel for atomic weapons.

[SargeRho]

Don't we produce so much Thorium, most mines just throw it away?

[Mr. Scruffy]

Plus: ´Thorium fuel cells´ is a tech in Master of Orion II.

[Anton P. Nym]

Don't we produce so much Thorium, most mines just throw it away?

Yes, right now it's considered a waste product from the mining and refining of rare earth elements, waste that can't be just reburied because it's mildly radioactive so it has to be stockpiled/warehoused (if I have that quite correctly) and the industry would be quite happy indeed to see some practical use for it.

I've heard rumblings that the price of thorium on world markets has "gone positive" (ie: you can sell it rather than have to pay someone to take it away) which is heartening if true... as the only use for thorium that I know of would be fuelling a prototype reactor.

-- Steve

[K^2]

Last estimates I've seen from DOE showed Thorium supplies to be abundant, but still very limited once we take growth into account. Admittedly, this was a few years back. Perhaps, the situation has changed. If you could link me to an estimate of available Thorium supplies, I would appreciate it.

[Nuke]

stopped reading when he claimed that kids had built working nuclear fusion reactors for high school science fairs...

a basic fusor isn't that hard to build. its really not that complicated. its also one of those concepts that wont go anywhere for a number of reasons, but it is good in an academic setting to learn about fusion research. you wont ever see one doing breakeven but they do make fusion happen. so i wouldn't be surprised seeing one at a high school science fair. though i do doubt it would have been one that was fired off (which requires deuterium, a capacitor bank, a vacuum chamber, and a license to operate it, which i have a hard time seeing a high school student acquiring).

Edited October 14, 2013 by Nuke

[K^2]

I cannot imagine there being any law in United States which prevents you from filling a chamber with hydrogen gas under very low pressure and applying some voltage to electrodes within. As for acquiring all the necessary things, it's pretty straight forward. Heavy water is not that expensive, and the rest is readily available from a number of websites.

Besides, it is academic, seeing how it actually happened.

[Nuke]

the guy who tried to build a polywell in his garage (http://prometheusfusionperfection.com/) had a bunch of visits from men in black suits. at the very least you have to tell certain organizations what you are doing.

[Sandworm]

I've read many articles discussing these guys in Canada. Their approach to a fusion reactor seems infinitely more practical that anything else I've seen. The steampunk vibe of a reciprocating device is also very cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Fusion

http://www.generalfusion.com/

[JMBuilder]

We'll see what happens. Maybe, since cold fusion is used to make steam, the world would go steampunk.

[Seret]

We'll see what happens. Maybe, since cold fusion is used to make steam, the world would go steampunk.

Already is. Uranium, gas, coal, etc are all used to make steam. Our civilisation is still very much steam powered. We just use nice clean turbines instead of messy old chuffing beam engines these days.

[SargeRho]

Exept for Photovoltaic, pretty much all of our power comes from turbines, and the majority of that from Steam. Coal, Oil, Gas, Fission, and Solar Thermal powerplants all produce steam to drive a turbine. Wind power uses wind to spin a turbine, and hydroelectric dams use the flow of water to spin a turbine.

[drakesdoom]

I've read many articles discussing these guys in Canada. Their approach to a fusion reactor seems infinitely more practical that anything else I've seen. The steampunk vibe of a reciprocating device is also very cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Fusion

http://www.generalfusion.com/

A fusion piston engine now I have heard it all.

[jwenting]

You should have kept reading, because that really happened.

which is not what he claims to have, a working device that actually produces electricity, a power station.

[SargeRho]

A fusion reactor is any device that produces fusion. Wether or not power is produced is completely irrelevant.

[Seret]

Exept for Photovoltaic, pretty much all of our power comes from turbines, and the majority of that from Steam. Coal, Oil, Gas, Fission, and Solar Thermal powerplants all produce steam to drive a turbine. Wind power uses wind to spin a turbine, and hydroelectric dams use the flow of water to spin a turbine.

Wind drives a generator directly (well, through a gearbox). The entire assembly is called a wind turbine, but only in the sense that a "turbine" is any engine that uses a moving fluid to generate rotation. Hydroelectric turbogenerators are turbines, but not steam turbines. Tidal barrages are similar to hydro, tidal stream is more like wind. We do also get some electricity from gas turbines and ICEs driving generators directly.

[Anton P. Nym]

Last estimates I've seen from DOE showed Thorium supplies to be abundant, but still very limited once we take growth into account. Admittedly, this was a few years back. Perhaps, the situation has changed. If you could link me to an estimate of available Thorium supplies, I would appreciate it.

As of 2011, known world thorium reserves totalled roughly 2 million tonnes. Adding in the probable sources takes that to about 3 million tonnes. That's only for commercialy-exploitable ores; on Earth overall, thorium is about as abundant as lead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium#Reserve_estimates

-- Steve

[magnemoe]

As of 2011, known world thorium reserves totalled roughly 2 million tonnes. Adding in the probable sources takes that to about 3 million tonnes. That's only for commercialy-exploitable ores; on Earth overall, thorium is about as abundant as lead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium#Reserve_estimates

-- Steve

Note that commercially-exploitable ores is not the total amount we can mine, just the cheapest places, if price increase 20% not to say 50% you this changes things totally.

Same is true for any material however some like nuclear fuel ore price is just an minor part of the cost.

[Idobox]

There's also the fact that we currently have no industrial use for Thorium, so we basically throw it away and never look for more of it. The day it becomes a strategic resource, you can expect prospecting to be funded in pretty much every country and the known reserves to explode.