Is Squad ditching the hardcore player?

[Skyrunner27]

*cough*dwarf fortress*cough*

I don't have a problem, but new players do. When a part description is just "it's a thing we found in a junkyard", and the name says that it's a winglet, people assume that it acts like the other winglets, rather than what it really is and does, which is, as it seems to me, pretty much nothing. There are worse parts out there, but isn't this already quite bad enough?

The first winglet is basically what you said. The second winglet says it acts like the other one but pivots to allow it to act as a control surface. The third winglet says it is less powerful than the second winglet but does the same function. I fail to see how this does not describe what the part does.

[stargazer1235]

I don't know what everyone is complaining about. Seriously guys, this whole forum post was based around some guy saying that squad wasn't looking after their hardcore fans but he didn't provide any argument what so ever. Now everyone has just come and started to take pot shorts at New players and Squad. I mean seriously, I am quite fine with the tech tree as it stands, remember 'IT IS STILL IN DEVELOPMENT'. Now this is the worst I have seen the community in the last months.

[satcharna]

For those of us who don't play a niche game, can you explain this?

It's offtopic, but sure. Dwarf Fortress is a game where you build a fortress for dwarves. It's not very well explained what to do in the actual game, so most new players just quit it in a huff, complaining that it's ****, when it is in fact quite interesting to play, you just need to google what to do first. It's highly unprofessional, which is what Hooj was on about, but it's excusable as it's just a single guy doing the entire game on his own, whereas Squad is an actual company, with a production team large enough that I don't think they're allowed to call themselves indie any more. We expect better from Squad, in short.

[shoveycat]

I don't know what everyone is complaining about. Seriously guys, this whole forum post was based around some guy saying that squad wasn't looking after their hardcore fans but he didn't provide any argument what so ever. Now everyone has just come and started to take pot shorts at New players and Squad. I mean seriously, I am quite fine with the tech tree as it stands, remember 'IT IS STILL IN DEVELOPMENT'. Now this is the worst I have seen the community in the last months.

I agree entirely, although slightly less harshly.

[Alguien]

Most parts have what they do in the name the description yes is useless, but if you can't tell that an engine launches you and a fuel tank holds fuel your probably or a winglet stabilizes your rocket not going to space today.

Even back in old versions you had people asking why they solid fuel booster didnt get fuel from a liquid fuel tank, so yes there are players who aren't even going to read part descriptions and get mad because they are bad at the game, but is really a good idea try to appeal to them?

In the day and age where you can Google anything, does it really matter what the part descriptions are or whether there is a manual? Are you people from 1997?

No, which is one of the reasons i dislike the techtree, because it was made as a tutorial for new players instead of Squad making and actual tutorial (i have see some veteran players confused about the techtree because there was no info, so we had to experiment the experiments to get how exactly works) or said new players reading some guides

[Exposure]

It's offtopic, but sure. Dwarf Fortress is a game where you build a fortress for dwarves. It's not very well explained what to do in the actual game, so most new players just quit it in a huff, complaining that it's ****, when it is in fact quite interesting to play, you just need to google what to do first. It's highly unprofessional, which is what Hooj was on about, but it's excusable as it's just a single guy doing the entire game on his own, whereas Squad is an actual company, with a production team large enough that I don't think they're allowed to call themselves indie any more. We expect better from Squad, in short.

Ah. In that case I actually agree with you on this.

[boomerdog2000]

No, which is one of the reasons i dislike the techtree, because it was made as a tutorial for new players instead of Squad making and actual tutorial (i have see some veteran players confused about the techtree because there was no info, so we had to experiment the experiments to get how exactly works) or said new players reading some guides

I liken it more to certain rts games. They start you off with limited buildings and resources so you can get to know how things work after having played the tutorial for basic controls. They made the tech-tree restrictive because it's designed to go with a tutorial not replace one.

[korda]

it was made as a tutorial for new players instead of Squad making and actual tutorial

Maybe they made it this way to provide some form of tutorial for now? Before they will actually start making in-game tutorials.

Also it is just a first draft of one aspect of career mode. I bet that difficulty will come from limits all aspects of carried mode will put on players, not just tech tree.

[shoveycat]

I feel like i should say this before i forget. Yes! Fight for my entertainment! I have everything and you have nothing!

[Seret]

Seriously guys, this whole forum post was based around some guy saying that squad wasn't looking after their hardcore fans but he didn't provide any argument what so ever.

Oh, he eventually did explain. He was burning with rage because the devs had gone three whole days without addressing his concerns.

[Alguien]

Maybe they made it this way to provide some form of tutorial for now? Before they will actually start making in-game tutorials.

We actually had tutorials since 0.17, they are very very very very basic and need a rework, which probably was easy and faster to do than making a new gamemode for a tutorial, only to end with said new gamemode not explaining anything, which kinda defeats its purpose.

I liken it more to certain rts games. They start you off with limited buildings and resources so you can get to know how things work after having played the tutorial for basic controls. They made the tech-tree restrictive because it's designed to go with a tutorial not replace one.

Even then, the game still lacks any explanation about how science works, and is a BIG part (if not the only part, at least right now) of career mode, i don't know how you see it, but i see it as bad design

[boomerdog2000]

Alright so they haven't made a tutorial for the career mode that had the very first, still in development, not in the least finished version released 3 days ago. Can we wait until career mode is done before asking for a tutorial on it since so many things are still subject to change and would leave said tutorials useless?

[jcraft]

We actually had tutorials since 0.17, they are very very very very basic and need a rework, which probably was easy and faster to do than making a new gamemode for a tutorial, only to end with said new gamemode not explaining anything, which kinda defeats its purpose.

Even then, the game still lacks any explanation about how science works, and is a BIG part (if not the only part, at least right now) of career mode, i don't know how you see it, but i see it as bad design

I really don't understand why are you seem to treat what we got in 0.22 as a final product... content of this update is just first iteration of first main element of career mode, something quite distant from a complete release.

Edited October 20, 2013 by jcraft

[I_Killed_Jeb]

Are the people foaming at the mouth re: career mode actually this upset for an addition to a 0.22 game? Try it out. It's surprisingly fun which is the point of a game.

[SkipSpikowski]

We actually had tutorials since 0.17, they are very very very very basic and need a rework, which probably was easy and faster to do than making a new gamemode for a tutorial, only to end with said new gamemode not explaining anything, which kinda defeats its purpose.

Even then, the game still lacks any explanation about how science works, and is a BIG part (if not the only part, at least right now) of career mode, i don't know how you see it, but i see it as bad design

Every early access game I have played has been like this because it isn't a finished product. Some people see it as bad design, but I see it as a pretty ingenious way to get your community involved and helping other players. it builds a community and helps the development process which, if I recall correctly, is the whole reason for doing early access.... that and the money.

Again, it isn't 1997 - things are different now.

[Exposure]

Alright so they haven't made a tutorial for the career mode that had the very first, still in development, not in the least finished version released 3 days ago. Can we wait until career mode is done before asking for a tutorial on it since so many things are still subject to change and would leave said tutorials useless?

The problem is this:

Lead developer Felipe Falanghe said of the update, “Career Mode is going to change the way people play Kerbal Space Program and update 0.22 is a major advancement in making that possible. Science and R&D should provide a fun challenge for existing players while helping new players get into the game, by providing a way to gradually discover all of its content and possibilities. We’re still not finished with Career Mode but this is definitely going to give people a very real understanding of what we’re trying to accomplish.â€Â

Emphasis mine.

It would be one thing if the release of career mode was treated along the lines of "the feature is still massively unpolished, so we suggest those just willing to playtest it and make suggestions on how to alter career mode into a more suitable mode that we can use to help new players get into the game", but as far as I know, Squad has described 0.22 career mode as a way to help new players get into the game.

Aaaand it currently sucks at that job. This is a bit of an issue.

[Lanfranc]

Even then, the game still lacks any explanation about how science works, and is a BIG part (if not the only part, at least right now) of career mode, i don't know how you see it, but i see it as bad design

I see it as being in the middle of a process. Everything looks bad while still half-finished.

[Fiddlestyx]

Why don't we wait until the game is actually finished and not during Alpha to see what the game is like. A lot of changes can be made between now and then.

/end thread

[korda]

We actually had tutorials since 0.17, they are very very very very basic and need a rework, which probably was easy and faster to do than making a new gamemode for a tutorial, only to end with said new gamemode not explaining anything, which kinda defeats its purpose.

Even then, the game still lacks any explanation about how science works, and is a BIG part (if not the only part, at least right now) of career mode, i don't know how you see it, but i see it as bad design

What makes you think that making tutorial is so easy and fast? Sure it would be actually easier and faster. And would delay development. And after a while you would have to update them. And then you would whine that they spend time on stupid tutorials instead of making actual game.

I think that there is no reason to make them right now. On the other hand if they could get one in (tech tree) for free (since they were doing it anyway) why not?

There is a wiki. There are tutorials made by other players. For in-development game it is just fine IMHO.

[Tiberion]

You people. Get a grip.

As you can see by the date under my name, I've been here longer than most of you (except korda ) and you might also know that I maintain a parts pack that adds a lot of "realistic" parts. So you might expect me to be 'hardcore' and weep over the purity of the game or somthing.

Sorry, but no. KSP has had a pretty clear vision since the beginning. Its a whimsical 'space tycoon' game - I always compare it to the Bullfrog games like Theme Hospital in tone and 'audience' and its an audience that isn't too well served even in the golden age of the Indie Game. They made a wise choice to go the physics sim route, because it makes for deep deep gameplay, which is what a lot of us "nerds" like about it (and being able to mod all the cool things we like on top of it.) But they have ALWAYS designed the interface and difficulty to fit that 'whimsical space tycoon' game and not ItsJustLikeOrbiter.

So the complaining about the silly science text and the funny animations and all of that should stop - its a ridiculous thing to get bent out of shape about, and if you're looking that hard for something to beef about, maybe you need to examine why.

They'll have tutorials and other example scenarios eventually, but in the middle of a programming sprint to add huge features to the game is not the time to be stop and make documentation. Furthermore, the science tree has a VERY specific function in that it implements the graduated ganeplay that almost ANY game features today - the first levels are easier and less complex, and as you progress you unlock more things. Tech trees are just the first layer of that, with several more to come, and it makes absolutely no sense to throw a fit about it, or declare that Squad doesn't care about the hardcare because they dared to add a graduated gameplay system to the lowest levels of the game. They HAD to do it because their audience is exploding, and the CURRENT DESIGN was not working, with new players being dropped into 100+ parts and having to figure it all out. Unlocking parts will teach them how to play 100 times better than any slideshow tutorial ever will.

I want a long, complex career mode too. I am with you there. Anyone who plays more than a few months will. It will come - imagine difficulty settings and other systems like unlocking prototype parts and then buying enough stock to builld you ships, taking jobs to make money and managing your budget and resources. There is a long way to go. Its our job to tell them what parts we like or don't, and what we want.

What we cannot and MUST NOT do is be negative and complain and start posts like this accusing Squad of abusing you or ignoring you. Don't attack other types of players as "ruining the game." Be postiive, or at the very least CONSTRUCTIVE.

If you aren't, you're the enemy of all things good, and somewhere a cute puppy is sitting in a corner crying. Don't make the puppy cry.

Also, don't speak for the majority. You don't know the majority, and the majority probably thinks you're dumb anyway (but I don't know, I haven't asked them yet)

And for the love of Jedediah give them more than THREE DAYS to say something because you declare they are ignoring the issue. That's just insane. It's the WEEKEND!

That is all.

(P.S. - You can go download ONE mod and change a few numbers and you could grind away on science for 6 months. So go do that and be 'hardcore' and maybe a puppy will come lick you in the face.)

Edited October 20, 2013 by Tiberion

[Kerbart]

I think some people are mistaking "Squad" for "Electronic Arts." The developer team is small, and yet manages to release updates at a blistering pace, for free. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the new features in .20 and .21 (large docking ports, hard to reach planets) were more appealing to the "hardcore player" (who are apparently the only ones who deserve to play the game) than to the casual player.

KSP development can only continue as long as new copies are being sold

So at one point, Squad will have to add features that make the game challenging and fun for new players. If the game is not attractive to new players, sales will flatten and development will stop. In fact, I hope that .23 will be bug fixes (performance) and a new free demo version because the free .18 version is starting to look pretty outdated. The newly implemented tech tree provides a perfect vehicle for that of course (you can only unlock, say, the first three levels or something along those lines).

As for a "tutorial mode" instead of the tech tree. Yes, that would be wonderful. But we'd have the same whining on how development is not focused on "hardcore players," and the new feature is completely not interesting for veteran players, unlike the tech tree where many are taking the challenge to see how quickly they can unlock it, or simply enjoy playing in that environment and having "learn playing KSP all over again, which is so much fun."

Then of course there's the possibility that career mode is going to be a lot more than just the tech tree. And that squad had the option of brooding over a new version for over a year, or release career mode in bits and pieces as they are doing right now.

In any scenario I fail to see how the alternatives would be better.

[Merinsan]

Developers intentionally not explaining gameplay concepts through the game itself and relying on the community to do it for them is incredibly lazy and downright unprofessional.

This criticism will be fully warranted when the game is released (ie version 1.0) until then, it is pointless for them to do such a thing since the game is still in development.

As for the OPs comments, I'm quite sure deadly reentry and FAR is coming, but it would be a low priority for now. Their current focus is career mode, which they have stated already. Career mode means science (which we just got), money (meaning mission objectives?) and possibly resources. Why care about deadly reentry when you can get a mod for it?

[J.Random]

Where does Squad now stand on the hardcore, deadly reentry and FAR, type players? Would they like us all to go away, or what?

What? Sandbox didn't go anywhere and the game is still highly moddable. Reentry heat, atmospheric conditions and better aerodynamics are in the list of planned features. Have I missed some announcement?

[boomerdog2000]

Emphasis mine.

It would be one thing if the release of career mode was treated along the lines of "the feature is still massively unpolished, so we suggest those just willing to playtest it and make suggestions on how to alter career mode into a more suitable mode that we can use to help new players get into the game", but as far as I know, Squad has described 0.22 career mode as a way to help new players get into the game.

How is this a problem or mean that career mode is a tutorial? It IS massively unpolished. It is the first release of some basic foundation for the full career mode. All it is designed to do right now is cut down on the number of initial parts available and that is what it does.

[Crush]

Believe me, the ****storm has just started. It will get worse and worse with every future update.

Squad is in a very bad position right now. There is this long-missing, over-hyped vaguely-defined feature "career mode" on the one side, and a die-hard player community on the other. Everyone in the community has their own expectations how "career mode" should work and feel. But the expectations of everyone are completely different. No matter what they do now, some people will be disappointed.

With every future update, there will be people who shout that the game is now "ruined FOREVER!" and would they have listened to their personal opinion (which is of course infallible because they are the only TRUE hardcore fans) they could have saved it, but no, these stupid game developers just did what they thought was right instead of listening to them. There is really nothing Squad can do about that except for further treading water like they did during the past year. But that won't help either, because then there will be people complaining that the game isn't moving forward. Unfortunately there is no "right" direction to move into. Whatever direction they choose, there will be complaints.