[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [26.0][18.12.2023][Soyuz Revamp Again]

[Niemand303]

Main reason for saving the whole ship, I suppose, is the pFairing setting - you will either need to incorporate fairing base ring into the ship, or use two interstage fairings - one to cover service module and other - to protect descent and orbital module during the ascent or LES activation.

You don't need that complexity, you just strap LES on top of Soyuz craft, use Interstage pFairings around the craft and on abort activate the SM->CM decoupler, fairing jetisson and LES engines. I do that on all Soyuz designs.

[Beale]

Nice LES! BTW, why do you want to save your engine? Real thing on Soyuz T-10-1 dragged away only orbital and descent modules, as seen here (Also, it was the only actual LES usage in spaceflight history).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Soyuz_launch_pad_abort_sequence.svg/739px-Soyuz_launch_pad_abort_sequence.svg.png

Thanks!

I didn't know this!

Main reason for saving the whole ship, I suppose, is the pFairing setting - you will either need to incorporate fairing base ring into the ship, or use two interstage fairings - one to cover service module and other - to protect descent and orbital module during the ascent or LES activation.

You don't need that complexity, you just strap LES on top of Soyuz craft, use Interstage pFairings around the craft and on abort activate the SM->CM decoupler, fairing jetisson and LES engines. I do that on all Soyuz designs.

Niemand has it right, basically you need two/three action groups for the abort, but only one set of fairings:

Action groups

1. Eject fairings, decouple Soyuz DM and OM from SM, fire LES
   
2. Release OM
   
3. Parachute
   

The way I set up fairings:

Fairing base (Tall), Soyuz on top, upside down fairing base (Slim) on top of Soyuz, LES on top of the upside down fairing base.

Then strap the two conic fairings either side.

The whole abort takes eh, less than two seconds, but it's a hell of a lot of fun.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Beale

[Niemand303]

Thanks!

I didn't know this!

Niemand has it right, basically you need two/three action groups for the abort, but only one set of fairings:

Action groups

1. Eject fairings, decouple Soyuz DM and OM from SM, fire LES
   
2. Release OM
   
3. Parachute
   

The way I set up fairings:

Fairing base (Tall), Soyuz on top, upside down fairing base (Slim) on top of Soyuz, LES on top of the upside down fairing base.

Then strap the two conic fairings either side.

The whole abort takes eh, less than two seconds, but it's a hell of a lot of fun.

Beale, may I ask you for a small favour? May we have a decoupler and an engine on the LES? It will reduce the count of AG to 1 and people often forget to set AG (from personal experience)

[Beale]

Beale, may I ask you for a small favour? May we have a decoupler and an engine on the LES? It will reduce the count of AG to 1 and people often forget to set AG (from personal experience)

Sure, I guess this can be done

But, would you not need two action group to fire and decouple?

I'm not totally sure what you mean, sorry.

[biohazard15]

A cool color diagram of Soyuz abort modes (sorry, in Russian):

1-2-3 is a normal launch

4-5-6 is a 2nd stage abort (controlled reentry)

7-8-9 is a upper atmo abort (ballistic reentry)

10-11-12 is a lower atmo\launchpad abort

BTW, one thing: at 11, you can see a small engines on LES, these are used to separate fairing w\OM inside from CM. Can these possibly be done in one part (i.e. you have two separate SRBs, with their separate fuel tanks, that could be staged independently)? I had a several close calls with standard 1-stage LES, so it could be a really welcoming addition.

Edited November 22, 2014 by biohazard15

[kopapaka]

Thanks, I'll take a look at it!

EDIT:

Took a look at it. It's pretty, but it only holds three people. The planned PPTS is going to hold six, and for Kerbal I'm really looking for a high-capacity pod. Thanks for the suggestion though! I haven't looked at NovaPunch in a while.

Five men Tantares CM : D

[biohazard15]

Sure, I guess this can be done

But, would you not need two action group to fire and decouple?

I'm not totally sure what you mean, sorry.

What he meant is that you should add a "hidden" decoupler to the LES, the one that doesn't have a staging icon, but activates along with the LES when you fire it through staging. That way you'll be able to jettison LES by staging, and you won't need to waste an action group or add a decoupler.

[Beale]

A cool color diagram of Soyuz abort modes (sorry, in Russian):

http://galspace.spb.ru/orbita/16.file/2b.jpg

1-2-3 is a normal launch

4-5-6 is a 2nd stage abort (controlled reentry)

7-8-9 is a upper atmo abort (ballistic reentry)

10-11-12 is a lower atmo\launchpad abort

BTW, one thing: at 11, you can see a small engines on LES, these are used to separate fairing w\OM inside from CM. Can these possibly be done in one part (i.e. you have two separate SRBs, with their separate fuel tanks, that could be staged independently)? I had a several close calls with standard 1-stage LES, so it could be a really welcoming addition.

Nice diagram there!

I did notice the smaller engines on the LES while modelling it (from reference). But I kind of brushed them off as not needed. Their purpose does seem quite important now

Unfortunately I do not think it is possible to stage separately the same part, but I will check

Five men Tantares CM : D

http://img98.rajce.idnes.cz/d9802/10/10447/10447390_7baedd9cfb1ead1a3fc4c0161e06b526/images/screenshot65_1.jpg?ver=0

Sweet!

Yes we can already have high capacity crew module (sort of)

What he meant is that you should add a "hidden" decoupler to the LES, the one that doesn't have a staging icon, but activates along with the LES when you fire it through staging. That way you'll be able to jettison LES by staging, and you won't need to waste an action group or add a decoupler.

Ah!

I get you now!

Yes, great idea.

[Exerminator2000]

why is the launch vehicle download empty?

[Beale]

why is the launch vehicle download empty?

Hmmm, it is working well for myself.

Can I ask where you are running into problems?

The 7z file downloads fully, yes?

Hope I can help

I am very very close to the release of the TLV now, most likely tomorrow, with the balance suggestions, etc. that people have put forwards.

I was experimenting with some powered decouplers, but sadly there seems to be phantom torque causing them to spin, anyone know about this?

[Exerminator2000]

ah, just a derp on my part.... my bad XD

[Exerminator2000]

so the radial tanks are not out yet?

[Leszek]

Beale, I think that rotation is part of the radial attachment bug. I am not sure though.

I am not clear what you finallly did for that bug but if you haven't tried it already my prefered solution is to just set the decouplers like vertical decouplers in the CFG and you are set. Most of my soyuz style ships built from KW parts just have one motor pushing downwards.

MODULE
{
    name = ModuleDecouple
    ejectionForce = 450
    explosiveNodeID = srf
}

I am guessing a bit as to what is going on and I don't know if this helps but hopefully it is relevant.

[Beale]

so the radial tanks are not out yet?

Yes, they are available right now.

If they are not showing up, likely you have the parts sitting in the wrong location.

The TLV folder expects to be inside the TantaresLV folder inside GameData.

Hope this helps

Beale, I think that rotation is part of the radial attachment bug. I am not sure though.

I am not clear what you finallly did for that bug but if you haven't tried it already my prefered solution is to just set the decouplers like vertical decouplers in the CFG and you are set. Most of my soyuz style ships built from KW parts just have one motor pushing downwards.

MODULE
{
    name = ModuleDecouple
    ejectionForce = 450
    explosiveNodeID = srf
}

I am guessing a bit as to what is going on and I don't know if this helps but hopefully it is relevant.

I... Did not know that was a possibility.

Thanks! I'll give this a go!

Mun Mission

[Niemand303]

Ah, one day I should translate in English our KSP roleplay posts, it could make a nice AAR story, I hope! As I play for USSR and it's mid 1962 in our reality, your TLV is my workhorse, so I hope seeing a release soon.

BTW, German Titov approves your Vostok, in which he had to spend 1 day in orbit.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Niemand303

[kopapaka]

[biohazard15]

Beale, how about something completely different for your next project?

ZIL-4906 "Blue Bird" - SAR truck that is used to retrieve cosmonauts and capsule after landing.

There are two versions - passenger and cargo.

More photos

Even more photos

Possible parts list:

- Base - 6 nodes for wheels, 1 node for cockpit, 1 node at the top (for passenger compartment or flatbed). Also contains ECharge and RTG (engine)

- Cockpit - for 3 Kerbals

- Wheel - well, it's round.

- Paasenger compartment - mounts on top, entry hatch is on the rear. Carries 5-6 Kerbals, also has KAS container

- Flatbed - Now it gets complicated. To be able to use it as the real stuff, you'll need at least two mods - Infernal Robotics (for the crane) and KAS (to grab the capsule and secure it on the flatbed).

- Small things, like lights, antennas, etc.

It needs to be relatively heavy (real stuff weights almost 12 tons) and sturdy (means high crash tolerance).

Usage: Fetching your cosmonauts and capsule, and bringing them back to KSC.

So, what do you say?

Edited November 23, 2014 by biohazard15

[Djolox]

Beale, how about something completely different for your next project?

http://autoinf.org/data/cars/zil/4906/4906_1.jpg

http://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/zil/4906_-sinyaya_ptitsa/autowp.ru_zil_4906_sinyaya_ptitsa_2.jpg

http://autoinf.org/data/cars/zil/4906/4906_3.jpg

ZIL-4906 "Blue Bird" - SAR truck that is used to retrieve cosmonauts and capsule after landing.

There are two versions - passenger and cargo.

More photos

Even more photos

Possible parts list:

- Base - 6 nodes for wheels, 1 node for cockpit, 1 node at the top (for passenger compartment or flatbed). Also contains ECharge and RTG (engine)

- Cockpit - for 3 Kerbals

- Wheel - well, it's round.

- Paasenger compartment - mounts on top, entry hatch is on the rear. Carries 5-6 Kerbals, also has KAS container

- Flatbed - Now it gets complicated. To be able to use it as the real stuff, you'll need at least two mods - Infernal Robotics (for the crane) and KAS (to grab the capsule and secure it on the flatbed).

- Small things, like lights, antennas, etc.

It needs to be relatively heavy (real stuff weights almost 12 tons) and sturdy (means high crash tolerance).

Usage: Fetching your cosmonauts and capsule, and bringing them back to KSC.

So, what do you say?

XD Nice and weird truck

[biohazard15]

XD Nice and weird truck

It can get even weirder

The Blue Bird also can carry a small screw-propelled ATV - it is used to reach places where truck itself cannot drive (heavy swamps, for example). Soyuz usually lands in Kazakh steppes, not far from Baikonur, so it is rarely used.

Sadly, it's impossible to recreate it in KSP without special plugins (and we don't actually need it since there are no realistic terrain in KSP).

Edited November 23, 2014 by biohazard15

[Niemand303]

It can get even weirder

https://a-a.d-cd.net/e6a214u-960.jpg

http://epizodsspace.no-ip.org/bibl/tm/1993/8/obl4.jpg

The Blue Bird also can carry a small screw-propelled ATV - it is used to reach places where truck itself cannot drive (heavy swamps, for example). Soyuz usually lands in Kazakh steppes, not far from Baikonur, so it is rarely used.

Sadly, it's impossible to recreate it in KSP without special plugins (and we don't actually need it since there are no realistic terrain in KSP).

I totally love this SHNEKOKHOD, comrade!

[passinglurker]

It can get even weirder

https://a-a.d-cd.net/e6a214u-960.jpg

http://epizodsspace.no-ip.org/bibl/tm/1993/8/obl4.jpg

The Blue Bird also can carry a small screw-propelled ATV - it is used to reach places where truck itself cannot drive (heavy swamps, for example). Soyuz usually lands in Kazakh steppes, not far from Baikonur, so it is rarely used.

Sadly, it's impossible to recreate it in KSP without special plugins (and we don't actually need it since there are no realistic terrain in KSP).

I see your trucks and raise you one ICBM small enough to be carried on your truck

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/gnom.htm

don't be fooled by its stubby appearance this puppy if it was ever built would have had the full range and payload capacity of its silo inhabiting brethren. the magic of its size and weight reduction was achieved by an "air augmented rocket" booster. the way it works is its basically like the nuclear thermal jets the usa was experimenting with but instead of using nuclear fission to heat the air and force it out of a nozzle to create thrust it uses the heat of the exhaust from a solid rocket booster. like nuclear thermal jets it has excellent isp compared to its conventional counterparts but is much more expensive(aerodynamic design aint cheap!). This shouldn't be confused with a "ram rocket" though which is basically a hybrid rocket engine which uses oxygen in the air as oxidizer unlike the "ram rocket" the "air augmented rocket" can start from a dead stop(though its performance would be that of conventional booster till it got up to speed) and isn't dependant on the presence of oxygen since the air is just working mass.

As for how this could be implemented in kerbal if my understanding is correct it wouldn't be necessary to give it actual intake air just adjust the altitude and velocity curves to give it better performance based on how low and fast its flying.

[Beale]

Ah, one day I should translate in English our KSP roleplay posts, it could make a nice AAR story, I hope! As I play for USSR and it's mid 1962 in our reality, your TLV is my workhorse, so I hope seeing a release soon.

BTW, German Titov approves your Vostok, in which he had to spend 1 day in orbit.

http://cs625521.vk.me/v625521511/d8fb/kncX42_Hi1M.jpg

http://cs625521.vk.me/v625521511/d90f/AVqYC0pxx8Q.jpg

http://cs625521.vk.me/v625521511/d92d/tKFne-heqFA.jpg

http://cs625521.vk.me/v625521511/d941/M8txFhn4H6k.jpg

http://cs625521.vk.me/v625521511/d953/pZLYwQfxE_w.jpg

Sweet mission! I do like reading the more "role-play-ey" type mission logs.

Glad to see the TLV is finding use!

http://img98.rajce.idnes.cz/d9802/10/10447/10447390_7baedd9cfb1ead1a3fc4c0161e06b526/images/screenshot138.jpg?ver=0

http://img98.rajce.idnes.cz/d9802/10/10447/10447390_7baedd9cfb1ead1a3fc4c0161e06b526/images/screenshot152.jpg?ver=0

Nice!!

I have never managed to wrangle an asteroid. It seems you have gone one step further by building a base on it.

Beale, how about something completely different for your next project?

http://autoinf.org/data/cars/zil/4906/4906_1.jpg

http://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/zil/4906_-sinyaya_ptitsa/autowp.ru_zil_4906_sinyaya_ptitsa_2.jpg

http://autoinf.org/data/cars/zil/4906/4906_3.jpg

ZIL-4906 "Blue Bird" - SAR truck that is used to retrieve cosmonauts and capsule after landing.

There are two versions - passenger and cargo.

More photos

Even more photos

Possible parts list:

- Base - 6 nodes for wheels, 1 node for cockpit, 1 node at the top (for passenger compartment or flatbed). Also contains ECharge and RTG (engine)

- Cockpit - for 3 Kerbals

- Wheel - well, it's round.

- Paasenger compartment - mounts on top, entry hatch is on the rear. Carries 5-6 Kerbals, also has KAS container

- Flatbed - Now it gets complicated. To be able to use it as the real stuff, you'll need at least two mods - Infernal Robotics (for the crane) and KAS (to grab the capsule and secure it on the flatbed).

- Small things, like lights, antennas, etc.

It needs to be relatively heavy (real stuff weights almost 12 tons) and sturdy (means high crash tolerance).

Usage: Fetching your cosmonauts and capsule, and bringing them back to KSC.

So, what do you say?

Very cool thing!

This was sort of the idea I had when making the "Tanta-Sat" van a while back (But I had not heard of this blue beast back then).

If I could figure out wheels, yeah, something like this would be cool.

For my absolute next project, however, I am focusing on Planetary probes (Venera-9/Mars-3).

I see your trucks and raise you one ICBM small enough to be carried on your truck

http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/g/gnom2.jpg

http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/0/9d711a.jpg

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/gnom.htm

don't be fooled by its stubby appearance this puppy if it was ever built would have had the full range and payload capacity of its silo inhabiting brethren. the magic of its size and weight reduction was achieved by an "air augmented rocket" booster. the way it works is its basically like the nuclear thermal jets the usa was experimenting with but instead of using nuclear fission to heat the air and force it out of a nozzle to create thrust it uses the heat of the exhaust from a solid rocket booster. like nuclear thermal jets it has excellent isp compared to its conventional counterparts but is much more expensive(aerodynamic design aint cheap!). This shouldn't be confused with a "ram rocket" though which is basically a hybrid rocket engine which uses oxygen in the air as oxidizer unlike the "ram rocket" the "air augmented rocket" can start from a dead stop(though its performance would be that of conventional booster till it got up to speed) and isn't dependant on the presence of oxygen since the air is just working mass.

As for how this could be implemented in kerbal if my understanding is correct it wouldn't be necessary to give it actual intake air just adjust the altitude and velocity curves to give it better performance based on how low and fast its flying.

That is... Slightly scary. Cool, but scary!

I might have to build this

Tantares 12.1 and Tantares LV 3.0

Fresh out the pen!

Featuring radial decouplers that work, thanks to a handy little trick Leszek has pointed out!

The main Tantares features many bug fixes and RealChute compatibility (Thanks tg626!).

In general, the unmanned craft (And Vostok) now have slightly more generous electrical supplies.

Thanks everyone for help in development and testing!

If you find bugs, or have suggestions, let me know!

Edited November 23, 2014 by Beale

[Ikaneko]

Whoo!!!!

I haven't even updated to Spektr yet, but hey!!

I love your texturing style, how do you get that soft grey?? Really good!

Also, looking forward to the Venera!!

Edited November 23, 2014 by Ikaneko

[biohazard15]

I love the Soyuz!

One thing, though: TWR is still too high, IMO. With a 10 ton payload, it sits at 2.55 (according to MJ), which is not good for FAR\NEAR and\or DRE users.

Also, Soyuz engines has no smoke FX in atmosphere.

[Beale]

Whoo!!!!

I haven't even updated to Spektr yet, but hey!!

I love your texturing style, how do you get that soft grey?? Really good!

Also, looking forward to the Venera!!

Thanks!

The soft grey, is colour with vibrancy of 55, no saturation.

I use vibrancy 83, 75, 65 for lighter patches.

If you want the textures to have a look over, just drop me a PM

I love the Soyuz!

One thing, though: TWR is still too high, IMO. With a 10 ton payload, it sits at 2.55 (according to MJ), which is not good for FAR\NEAR and\or DRE users.

Also, Soyuz engines has no smoke FX in atmosphere.

Thanks for the feedback! Quick!

The TWR point is fair to say, it's currently a lot better than it's original TWR of 5+ !

I think the core engines will be nerfed down further, to around 250 - 270 thrust, pushing them more in line with existing 1.25m engines.

I think it's a tricky balance, as I want it to be able to deliver minimum 7 tons to LKO (With stock aero).

The smoke - great catch! Completely missed that out.

Also - I have interest to know if the radial decouplers are working well for folks. They are a bit of a compromise, but should work flawlessy, the only downside is it's less of a "Korolev cross" and more of a "Korolev drop away quietly".

Edited November 23, 2014 by Beale