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Dreamer - SNC Dreamchaser Mod - V1.2 UPDATED! Now with (some) FAR support!


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I've had to delist this mod from Kerbal Stuff for the time being due to a trademark infringement notice from Sierra Nevada Corp. https://sr.ht/f809.txt

How did a mod infringe copyright? I pretty sure nobody was making any money off of it. Is it because the Dreamer looked too similar to SNC's Dreamchaser? But, the Dreamchaser is

really just NASA's cancelled HL-20 with hybrid rocket motors and a new heatshield; meaning that technically most of the Dream Chaser is of NASA-origin, not SNC. So SNC really should only have a trademark on the HRMs (Hybrid Rocket Motors), the heatshield, the name "Dream Chaser", and the logo; not everything. IMO automated copyright infringement bots (that's what I'm assuming gave this notice) often see something as infringing copyright when it really isn't. For example, in this case no money was being made off of this mod that I know of (even though it was ArtWhaley's original creation), and isn't copyright infringement when someone makes money off of someone else's copyrighted material? So it seems that the notices are handed out if something looks too similar to copyrighted material, regardless of whether or not anyone is making money. Anyway, could you provide the notice?

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If SNC are trying to build an unfavourable public image, this is a good start. Quashing free publicity is just silly.

I think that their employees don't play KSP like SpaceX's and some of NASA's.

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  • 1 month later...
I think that their employees don't play KSP like SpaceX's and some of NASA's.

Maybe if they did, they'd have known to double check their landing gear to prevent that crash in atmospheric testing, and/or been able to keep their CCD contract into the next phase? :P

Okay, that's my snark quota on the matter... I appreciate the words of support after the take-down notice. Technically any unauthorized use of a company's trademarks is a violation - they can't really come after me for bazillions of dollars unless they can prove actual damages- as in, me making money and not giving them the cut they should have gotten from licensing their likeness, name or logos to me.

I'm really glad that Mike with the CSS project has taken over here where I left off, and I can't say enough how much I appreciate the support from SirCmpwn at Kerbal Stuff. From my understanding, SNC never bothered to respond to his excellent letter explaining why they should be thrilled to have us cramming kerbals into an in-game model of their craft. I've asked him to dig up their contact info so I can try to personally request permission to use their trademarks...

I'm also going to talk to the Mike and offer to do a new version of the texture that removes all trademarked names and logos.

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I did a basic update to 1.0.5...  I honestly haven't put a LOT of effort into it, as I haven't felt a lot of community demand for it.  But...  it's available and flyable in the new thread, where we don't discuss at all any similarity to other craft, real or prototype:  

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/126208-dreamer-v13-vertical-launch-horizontal-recovery-space-plane-updated-for-105/

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I kind of like it... except for the fact that it flies really bad for some reason. I have deadly reentry and FAR installed and using the keyboard it is twitchy as anything. It's like it has no mass at all.

Yet the strange thing is, I watched Scott Manley's vids of it and it handles like... well, a DREAM... in comparison to my setup.

The flight characteristics just has it being over responsive. It needs damping somehow (I'm not that much of a modder these days so I don't know how). Is there a way to upgrade its inertia somehow? A lot of craft really need this... it's the difference between a real plane and a radio controlled plane at times. The mass is just not there to dampen out the effects of the control surface inputs.

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I've been playing with this all day and come to the conclusion that the control surfaces... don't actually control lol. All the control comes from the reaction wheels torque. Take that away and the thing just skids backwards which is the opposite to what it should do.

Seriously... the Space Shuttle handled like a freight train with wings... this lifting body just doesn't perform like a lifting body. It just needs someone who knows how to make a decent flight model is all. I like the actual model... it's just a shame that it handles so badly. One tiny input and it begins doing a Steve Austin (but pitching up and down instead of rolling left and right like Steve's did).

But even with these problems I still would like to see it tuned up and finished. I love lifting bodies and want to see decent HL-20 and X-37 models that actually fly like lifting bodies and not like skidding bricks heh. I just don't know whether the problem is in the models or in FAR tbh.

 

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Folks in the new thread at http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/126208-dreamer-v13-vertical-launch-horizontal-recovery-space-plane-updated-for-105/&page=1 have been experimenting...  it appears that disabling the pitch and roll on the tail and the yaw on the wings helps a lot on stock aero.  I really haven't done much aero tuning since .90, but I WILL be doing a total rework of it for 1.1.  I don't play with FAR, especially since stock aero got 'less soupy.'  I would LOVE for someone to volunteer to do FAR configs for it, but you should probably wait for the new version of Dreamer...  as I plan to rework everything, starting with mass...  then thrust, then reaction wheels, then stock aero parameters...  then it would make sense to add FAR specific settings on top of all of that.  

I honestly got a little burned out on trying to do the tuning for the ship...  when I FIRST released it...  it was very hard to fly, because I tuned it for fairly accurate spaceplane performance - basically it did a mostly ballistic reentry, a very steep descent and had just enough lift and control surface to flare and land at the last minute.  I was able to put it down right on the runway...  but I got constant PMS and forum posts about how 'impossible' it was to fly.  I think I  should have stuck with this tuning... and will probably return to this philosophy with the update.  It's NOT an SSTO...  it shouldn't be able to take off from a runway and fly cross country! 

Now it's gone the other direction -  I just piled on the lift and control authority to the point of ridiculous so casual players would be able to zoom around without having to learn how to fly it...   And I'm SURE that makes it especially strange in FAR.   So...  yeah.  Maybe I'll think about how to release it with two sets of configs?   It's hard to be everything to everyone!  

 

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2 hours ago, speedwaystar said:

@NeoMorph i'm pretty sure Scott had Farram Aerospace open with roll/pitch/yaw assist turned on for the entire video -- basically a background autopilot dampening the twichiness and making the thing a doddle to fly.

In that video Scott didn't have FAR installed

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I would love the "Impossible" setup because that is exactly what the definition of a lifting body is.The "wings" aren't meant to turn it into a glider... they are just there to give a bit of control when landing. If you ever watch the HL-20 landing tests you will see you probably had it right before the casuals ruined it.

http://www.space.com/23385-private-space-plane-dream-chaser-investigation.html

dream-chaser-first-drop-test-2.jpg?13830

Just watch the dive it is initially in... when I tried it the Dreamer it went totally bonkers on me... flipping all over the place even with SAS on.

But don't lose hope... it's going to be a more famous vehicle when they really start flying the actual spaceplane to orbit. At that point, interest in your mod will probably skyrocket (pun unintended).

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Tried doing Art's fix of disabling pitch and roll on the tail and yaw off the wings... and when I hit 33km the thing just tumbles like crazy.

It's like the rear end wants to go faster than the front end. It just wants to do a handbrake turn in the air (especially when on final). The wings feel like they are rocket engines instead of drag stabilisers.

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7 hours ago, NeoMorph said:

Tried doing Art's fix of disabling pitch and roll on the tail and yaw off the wings... and when I hit 33km the thing just tumbles like crazy.

It's like the rear end wants to go faster than the front end. It just wants to do a handbrake turn in the air (especially when on final). The wings feel like they are rocket engines instead of drag stabilisers.

I... can't duplicate this.  It's handling crummily, but I can't make it fly rear first no matter what I try!  I'm working on a full rewrite of the aero parameters, but I'm still interested to know how you''re getting it to do this!  Are you using FAR?  At the moment I'm not testing with FAR... so that could be it.  Do you have any other parts attached?  Do you have the nose, tail, and wings all attached?  And, when you say you hit 33km and it starts to tumble, is this on ascent or descent?  You should still be carrying the second stage booster at 33k on ascent I'd think...  and on descent you're going to be going FAST.... so there may be some wobble, especially with SAS on, but I haven't figured out how to make it flip end for end if I want it to! 

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Yeah, I'm using Deadly Reentry and FAR. I've been doing some testing with other parts to make a ship that is like the dreamchaser and although the design is similar it tends to be unstable in the roll axis (bit like Steve Austin's crash in the original Six Million Dollar Man). But when I go to do it with the Dreamchaser I end up sliding left and right, like the wings aren't actually there. Perhaps increasing the drag from them will help.

Anyway, if I have time, I'll hook up my Game Capture HD sometime this weekend and capture some video of the tests if you want. I'll do it with Engineer and FAR keeping track of the stats so we can see what is happening. I think I'll also put together a build with just DC, FAR and Deadly Reentry to make sure that it isn't another mod causing problems (I have quite a few installed you see).

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Okay... I think I may have gotten the thing flying how I like now. I increased the drag slightly on the wings and tail and the flat sliding no longer occurs. I will do more research but for now it's handling nicely in FAR. The transition from braking angle to landing dive doesn't make the ship go crazy and tumble all over the sky. What is even better is I did it without a joystick (I'm redoing my flightsim controls mountings now I have all-metal ones... well, 90% metal that is).

I would still love to look at the original settings where you have to fly it properly to land it.

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