What is the point of the Suggestions subforum?

[John FX]

It seems the issue is lack of official feedback to ideas presented in the forum.

It also seems that there is not time for devs to respond to individual threads.

It seems to make sense for there to be a single place for people to check on what is upcoming or planned as far as it relates to suggestions. It seems to me that it is the least effort for the maximum feedback.

If there was an official version of the unofficial `planned features` list then people could easily see whether a feature or suggestion had been noticed and what action, if any, was planned regarding it.

It could even be combined with the `What not to suggest` list and a single list could provide more than one function.

I agree with the OP that more feedback would be nice but I don`t see lack of feedback as the `death of the suggestions subforum` as some have suggested.

It seems the mods are very interactive already with the forum (well done guys, you do a sterling job) so might it be sensible for one of them to cover the thread/wiki page update?

Not take on a whole new job, more monitor the threads and look for suggestions that seem popular (like the thread of the month already does) and report them back to SQUAD (I have no idea if this already happens) then take feedback from SQUAD (also no idea) and update the planned features page officially.

Maybe `threads of the month` could be combined with `suggestions of the month` and a poll to gauge interest in them? Maybe even just pick one to be referred upwards?

Then the limited number of `suggestions of the month` could get feedback while hopefully not overwhelming anyone in the chain.

I`m just trying to find the `lazy` ways of achieving the feedback. Ones that get the job done without increasing workload on people who are already working hard.

If anyone has any other `lazy` ways of us getting feedback I would like to hear them. I`m sure I have not thought of everything.

[TMS]

The suggestions forum is just a talking shop with an unknown audience.

Having said that, it might be useful if/when this is implemented:

Harvesters opinion on "the little things that hurt"

[Red Iron Crown]

Much as I might enjoy reading the responses, I don't really want a dev to spend an hour or more a day reading threads and composing careful replies to them; they'd have to be carefully composed as every drop of implication will be wrung from them. Their time is better spent coding and testing. (Back to work, devs! *cracks whip*)

I figure it's part of the job of the community manager and moderators to glean interesting ideas from the suggestion forum and pass them along to the devs. I'd be surprised if that's not how it actually works.

[Dodgey]

I think the most relevant question in this thread why have the sub forum if it doesn't make a difference. The reason as I see it is for organisation. If the subforum were removed people would just start posting suggestions in the general discussin, can you not say that it is better just to have them all in the one place.

Besides have you never had an idea about something that you just had to share with your friend, and discuss with them. That's what the subfourm is.

[CaptainKipard]

Your request for a "yes/no/maybe" type of answer even ties into this. What does "maybe" mean? Does it mean it's coming to the game? What if the devs say something is not planned for the game and it is later decided to go for such a feature, or vice versa?

I can't tell; are those thetorical questions?

Features can only be discussed in the team once development on them begins.

What kind of backwards nonsense is this? You must have misspoken.

The moderators have come up with some ideas to initiate a little more feedback from the Suggestions forum, I'll kick those around and see if they're viable because more community interaction is definitely something that's beneficial to everyone I think.

I think what the OP was asking is:

"What is the point of the devs asking our opinions if we don't receive comment from them. Perhaps a high volume/highly rated thread might warrant a small response as reward for our efforts?"

It seems the issue is lack of official feedback to ideas presented in the forum.

It's not the lack of actual feedback that's bothering me. The feedback is just a means to an end, and the end is figuring out whether my effort and the effort of thousands of others is worth making. It doesn't look like it.

You realise that the time we use there is voluntary; it's not paid. It's charitable. And it's not being used effectively. I think I'm just going to stop posting there, and urge others to stop as well.

So, in conclusion, I humbly submit that since Squad has announced the game scope complete, I submit that the suggestions subforums have pretty much run their course and should either be retired so we can move on, or; moved to the mod section where modders can get ideas, and where programming Darwinism can allow for the best mod to rise to the top and be added to the game.

Absolutely. The modding section at least provides a realistic chance of unofficial implementation.

I know that scares people. I know many people fear that with that subforum gone that they think that they will lose their voice

Then the honest among us can let them know that they always have a voice it's just that they've been screaming into a wall with great, but not perfect, sound proofing.

or fear that it will dispell the illusion that the devs tailor the game based on our posts there. But the reality is that our participation on that subforum has become irrelevant. A thousand threads a day wouldn't change what the dev's have planned for KSP, and likewise they wouldn't notice if we never posted on there again.

See, the problem is that the suggestions board is an artefact from the days back when suggestions could actually be put into the game. Can anyone list a suggestion in the last two years that has been implemented? As in: Squad read about a suggestion, said "hey, we never thought of that, great idea!" and implemented it? I can't think of a single one. And with the game declared scope complete, there isn't anything more to add to the game except for parts/content and whatever little features HarvesteR has been mulling over.

.............

As we sit right now, all we do is continue to cling to the illusion that our own participation in the suggestion subforums has some meaning or relevance. Let's acknowledge its pointlessness and repurpose it for more constructive activities towards a game that we all love and feel passionate enough about to take the time to participate in its community.

Damn straight. All of that. And why don't more people get mad about that? Two reasons:

• One is a simple fact that the withdrawal of the devs happened gradually, and people are largely passive to gradual change.
  
• The other relates to a psychological mob mentality experiment on monkeys;
  The difference is that the banana here is an implicit suggestion that ideas are implemented, and forum members themselves maintain that collective delusion and police themselves to a degree about the WNTS list.
  

Much as I might enjoy reading the responses, I don't really want a dev to spend an hour or more a day reading threads and composing careful replies to them; they'd have to be carefully composed as every drop of implication will be wrung from them. Their time is better spent coding and testing. (Back to work, devs! *cracks whip*)

You're responding to a strawman. No one suggested that.

Besides have you never had an idea about something that you just had to share with your friend, and discuss with them. That's what the subfourm is.

A subforum devoted to pointless fantasising? Seriously? Is it supposed to be just one huge hype train then? That is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[r4pt0r]

I for one have always said squad will build the game they want to. thats fine by me, its their game after all.

[John FX]

Can anyone list a suggestion in the last two years that has been implemented? As in: Squad read about a suggestion, said "hey, we never thought of that, great idea!" and implemented it?

Well there was the single button to provide max throttle, the additions to the NAVBall and the new spaceplane parts which were all suggested IIRC

Just off the top of my head.

I`m sure there is more

EDIT :

Much as I might enjoy reading the responses, I don't really want a dev to spend an hour or more a day reading threads and composing careful replies to them; they'd have to be carefully composed as every drop of implication will be wrung from them. Their time is better spent coding and testing. (Back to work, devs! *cracks whip*)

You're responding to a strawman. No one suggested that.

If the devs had to spend even just an hour per day going over the suggestions etc.. and replying to them then you'd lose about 3 days of work by the end of the month per developer.

giving any in-depth commentary can only backfire in the future, so the only thing they can really say at this moment is "it's planned" or "it's a cool idea", which are both not very satisfying or useful answers.

Your request for a "yes/no/maybe" type of answer even ties into this. What does "maybe" mean? Does it mean it's coming to the game? What if the devs say something is not planned for the game and it is later decided to go for such a feature, or vice versa? Features can only be discussed in the team once development on them begins. Again, your request is perfectly understandable but a bit impractical for Squad to implement.

Cpt, you seem a bit upset and personally invested in this topic. Maybe a step back might help to get a slightly different perspective.

If you feel you have been putting too much effort in, maybe you have?

EDIT 2 :

I just watched the `monkey` video and my first thought was that this thread itself is four wet monkeys jumping on a dry monkey...

(Cpt, you are a wet monkey just in case it was not clear. You appear to have been soaked by a hose in the suggestion forum (had a suggestion ignored) it seems and now you want no other monkeys (users) to try for the banana (post suggestions) as you are sure they will just bring on the hose again (SQUAD not taking on a suggestion) and nobody ever gets the banana (a suggestion being taken on board))

Edited November 28, 2014 by John FX

[CaptainKipard]

A strawman is something that the person rebutting is proposing. It wasn't suggested by me or anyone on "my" side of the argument. The quotes you posted show that don't they? I thought it'd be obvious.

Cpt, you seem a bit upset and personally invested in this topic. Maybe a step back might help to get a slightly different perspective.

If you feel you have been putting too much effort in, maybe you have?

Look it takes at least two agents to create this situation. My decision to post is only half the story. The other half (the implied purpose of the subforum) has been sufficiently explained already.

I just watched the `monkey` video and my first thought was that this thread itself is four wet monkeys jumping on a dry monkey...

(Cpt, you are a wet monkey just in case it was not clear. You appear to have been soaked by a hose in the suggestion forum (had a suggestion ignored) it seems and now you want no other monkeys (users) to try for the banana (post suggestions) as you are sure they will just bring on the hose again (SQUAD not taking on a suggestion) and nobody ever gets the banana (a suggestion being taken on board))

Yes maybe, but that's a red herring. Let's not derail the discussion.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[Superfluous J]

Red Iron Crown does have a point, to read and respond to all the posts, SOMEONE on Squad's payroll will have to invest a decent amount of time. Maybe they could get an intern to do it or something, and just bring the top 5 or so to the actual devs. Don't know. However, it's not a strawman argument. Either they don't look at the threads or some eventual developer time will need to be spent looking at them.

I don't think the suggestions subforum serves no purpose. There are tons of suggestions that are worth it. Even "We should be able to mine resources" is a valid suggestion. "I spent the entire weekend working out exactly how mining should work, with these spreadsheets on resource flow rates, composition ratios, part specs and whatnot" is NOT a valid suggestion.

A great suggestion is axial tilt. I even posted on that thread a way to do it with the current setup of Unity. If instead I'd spent hours working out what I thought the best tilts for each planet were and arguing with others who had completely different ideas than I, then no, that's not a good suggestion.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the more complicated, in-depth, and thorough the suggestion is, the less use it is to the developers. They can work out the details themselves, and you can spend your time in much more productive ways.

[r4pt0r]

every indie game has a suggestion forum somwhere, and almost no suggestions ever go into the game. its how it works. posting in the suggestions board 500 times wont make you a dev lol.

[CaptainKipard]

Red Iron Crown does have a point, to read and respond to all the posts, SOMEONE on Squad's payroll will have to invest a decent amount of time. Maybe they could get an intern to do it or something, and just bring the top 5 or so to the actual devs. Don't know. However, it's not a strawman argument. Either they don't look at the threads or some eventual developer time will need to be spent looking at them.

I'm objecting to the overexaggerated time investment they're talking about. There's always a way to shorten it considerably. I suggested some; I'm sure there are many others.

I don't think the suggestions subforum serves no purpose. There are tons of suggestions that are worth it. Even "We should be able to mine resources" is a valid suggestion. "I spent the entire weekend working out exactly how mining should work, with these spreadsheets on resource flow rates, composition ratios, part specs and whatnot" is NOT a valid suggestion.

It's more valid, it's just that the way things are right now it's not appropriate. It's too long. This is the kind of discussion that should happen before implementation.

A great suggestion is axial tilt. I even posted on that thread a way to do it with the current setup of Unity. If instead I'd spent hours working out what I thought the best tilts for each planet were and arguing with others who had completely different ideas than I, then no, that's not a good suggestion.

Yes, it's a good, simple suggestion. This discussion is not about those kinds of suggestions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the more complicated, in-depth, and thorough the suggestion is, the less use it is to the developers. They can work out the details themselves, and you can spend your time in much more productive ways.

I dread having to say this but the devs don't hold a candle to every scientist and engineer in the community (I'm not one). As I said before, they are squandering a great opportunity.

[Red Iron Crown]

A strawman is something that the person rebutting is proposing. It wasn't suggested by me or anyone on "my" side of the argument. The quotes you posted show that don't they? I thought it'd be obvious.

It is exactly what has been suggested. You propose that devs respond to lengthy threads, do you think they would do so without reading the entire thread? Do you think they won't carefully compose their replies, perhaps in consultation with other Squad people, since it pretty much constitutes an official statement that people will link to it as "proof" of the plans for KSP? Do you think time spent on those activities won't eat into time for other work?

Edit: And for that matter, thread length is not a good indicator of idea quality, just an indicator of contentiousness as near as I can tell. Good ideas that nearly everyone agrees with get a few "+1" style responses before sinking into oblivion, for the most part.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Red Iron Crown

[John FX]

A strawman is something that the person rebutting is proposing. It wasn't suggested by me or anyone on "my" side of the argument. The quotes you posted show that don't they? I thought it'd be obvious.

Look it take at least two agents to create this situation. My decision to post is only half the story. The other half (the implied purpose of the subforum) has been sufficiently explained already.

Yes maybe, but that's a red herring. Let's not derail the discussion.

Why post a video if you are not willing to have discussion about it?

Why ask for more responses in the forum to threads then dismiss the replies that address that calling them strawmen?

Why are you setting up `sides`? Are you trying to make this discussion adversarial?

You are the one asking for more feedback from the Devs yet you dismiss any responses that explain why this is not currently happening in the way you desire.

Have you read this BLOG?

it`s quite good and you may find it useful in formulating future posts...

[CaptainKipard]

It is exactly what has been suggested. You propose that devs respond to lengthy threads, do you think they would do so without reading the entire thread? Do you think they won't carefully compose their replies, perhaps in consultation with other Squad people, since it pretty much constitutes an official statement that people will link to it as "proof" of the plans for KSP? Do you think time spent on those activities won't eat into time for other work?

I proposed summaries.

What people argue against is reading the whole thread. That's the strawman.

What Squad does with those summaries is their decision. Internal discussions is what every development team does. They can, if they choose to, avail themselves of the discussion already underway at a later time. It's available. Or they can waste time reinventing the wheel.

Why post a video if you are not willing to have discussion about it?

Why ask for more responses in the forum to threads then dismiss the replies that address that calling them strawmen?

Why are you setting up `sides`? Are you trying to make this discussion adversarial?

You are the one asking for more feedback from the Devs yet you dismiss any responses that explain why this is not currently happening in the way you desire.

Have you read this BLOG?

it`s quite good and you may find it useful in formulating future posts...

:/ You can't be serious...

[longbyte1]

This thread is almost reaching boiling temperature (when it reaches boiling, there will be quote wars, flame wars, many mentions of "you", and excessive use of the `grave accent` character). As you know, the flow of new ideas is inversely proportional to the discussion temperature.

In a way, this thread is a suggestion in itself, but the discussion has become basically moot since the staff have not made a decision yet (or at least one whose outcome we can control).

[Red Iron Crown]

I proposed summaries.

What people argue against is reading the whole thread. That's the strawman.

What Squad does with those summaries is their decision. Internal discussions is what every development team does. They can, if they choose to, avail themselves of the discussion already underway at a later time. It's available. Or they can waste time reinventing the wheel.

Is choosing to read the discussions without commenting on them a valid choice for them?

How can they be sure that a summary made by a community member is unbiased and covers the discussion honestly?

[CaptainKipard]

Is choosing to read the discussions without commenting on them a valid choice for them?

How can they be sure that a summary made by a community member is unbiased and covers the discussion honestly?

Reading a summary is a valid starting point. And it's in the interest of the community to come to some kind of a consensus on that. If they can't then the idea is probably not worth implementing. Reasonable people can be swayed one way or another, but the arguments have to be valid and sound and well expressed. Unreasonable people can be, and are, sidelined in those discussions.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[Red Iron Crown]

I would suggest that there probably are summaries made if necessary, but they're done by the moderators and kept internal. (Guessing here, no idea how it actually works.)

Your OP is not really about that though, it seems that the perceived issue is that the feedback in the suggestions forum is one way and you'd like more responses from the devs or their representatives. My question for you is: What do the devs gain by responding to the threads?

[CaptainKipard]

I would suggest that there probably are summaries made if necessary, but they're done by the moderators and kept internal. (Guessing here, no idea how it actually works.)

Your OP is not really about that though, it seems that the perceived issue is that the feedback in the suggestions forum is one way and you'd like more responses from the devs or their representatives. My question for you is: What do the devs gain by responding to the threads?

The OP is about wasted time and effort. Thousands of person-hours of it. Dev feedback is a peripheral issue. I expanded on that earlier today.

My question is "What do we gain by posting there". Why are you asking about the devs? They get paid to do what they do.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[John FX]

I proposed summaries

Why not suggest that in the suggestion forum phrased in a proper manner then?

If you say mainly players and forum users read it and pay attention it should reach your target audience.

The people that make threads.

Once the summaries are in place on a few threads (which would make skimming threads handy not just for Devs) maybe the Devs will use an available resource in developing the game?

They have shown time and again they like this way of working.

If the community shows they are willing to do this (like version control, ckan, kerbalX, kerbalstuff) then it will happen.

This particular conversation seems moot until that is in place.

If the community does not follow your plan then there is nothing for the devs to read and so, again, this conversation becomes moot...

I say give it a go, what have you got to lose?

But, once you have suggested. if you are willing to accept that your suggestion may or may not happen then that is that. You have made a suggestion.

If you are not willing to accept your suggestion may not happen then it is not a suggestion, it is a demand.

Not accepting an undesired result and then saying you would actively try to discourage others from using the forum or try to get the forum closed if that happened would be a demand with threats...

Saying that either SQUAD *have* to do something or close the subforum is a false dichotomy.

EDIT :

The OP is about wasted time and effort. Thousands of person-hours of it. Dev feedback is a peripheral issue. I expanded on that earlier today.

There is a very simply solution if you feel you are putting in too much effort.

Stop putting in so much effort.

There. Problem solved.

EDIT 2:

The OP is about wasted time and effort... Why are you asking about the devs?

In the OP you state

What I'm suggesting I guess is that if a thread gets long enough (not a specific number) and is rated highly, that a developer pop in to just say whether they're even considering this idea, whether they're interested in the discussion in that thread, or whether they are not interested, so we can stop getting our hopes up and move on to other ideas.

I`ll cut and paste to condense the meaning as I see it...

"What I'm suggesting is that a developer pop in to just say [stuff]" (abridged)

Now that really seems to me like you are suggesting that devs pop into threads after reading them or a summary and provide feedback but that`s just how I read it.

I may be wrong, I sometimes am.

If that is NOT what you are suggesting you may want to edit the OP. People may get confused and comment in the wrong way...

Edited November 28, 2014 by John FX

[CaptainKipard]

Why not suggest that in the suggestion forum phrased in a proper manner then?

Well I started this thread in Suggestions but it got moved here. And honestly it's ridiculous to suggest that I write a block of text explaining the whole thing. Who would read it? I chose to make a short first post hoping that something would emerge, and the summary idea came about later naturally.

There is a very simply solution if you feel you are putting in too much effort.

Stop putting in so much effort.

There. Problem solved.

Yep it's a solution, one that i'll probably use, but there are thousands of others in there under a seemingly false impression wasting their time, getting riled, getting false hope and it's painful to watch.

[Red Iron Crown]

The OP is about wasted time and effort. Thousands of person-hours of it. Dev feedback is a peripheral issue. I expanded on that earlier today.

My question is "What do we gain by posting there". Why are you asking about the devs? They get paid to do what they do.

There is some evidence that the suggestions are evaluated to some degree or other, many things that have been suggested have made it into the game. The OP is entirely about wanting the devs to provide feedback in the forum (emphasis mine):

What I'm suggesting I guess is that if a thread gets long enough (not a specific number) and is rated highly, that a developer pop in to just say whether they're even considering this idea, whether they're interested in the discussion in that thread, or whether they are not interested, so we can stop getting our hopes up and move on to other ideas.

If you feel like suggestions aren't looked at and that it's a waste of time to post there, you are of course free to not participate in that section of the forum. I think they are looked at and it's not a waste of time, so I'll keep participating. That the devs don't respond in thread is irrelevant; they didn't set up what amounts to an official suggestion box to just ignore it. Or at least I choose not to be so cynical as to think that's what's going on.

Honestly, Cpt. Kipard, I think you got trolled hard by someone saying that the devs ignore everything the player base says. I don't believe that (the recent changes to kerbal xp and the barnyard art are evidence enough of that), and I don't think you should either.

[CaptainKipard]

This came about after a short exchange with 5thHorseman in the Resources thread, p17-18. Is he a troll?

Two bits of data (or three, or four) don't suggest a pattern of behaviour. Everything else does.

[John FX]

Well I started this thread in Suggestions but it got moved here.

because it was phrased like a complaint and as the start of a discussion so it got moved to discussion.

If you phrase it as a suggestion to the forum it probably won`t get moved.

[CaptainKipard]

because it was phrased like a complaint and as the start of a discussion so it got moved to discussion.

If you phrase it as a suggestion to the forum it probably won`t get moved.

No it got moved because it relates to forum protocol, It was a meta-suggestion.