[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[Ant432]

@Yemo I just want to thank you, for creating such amazing mods and being so supportive whenever someone encounters a bug.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Antonio432

[TheReadPanda]

On 7/7/2016 at 3:32 PM, kcs123 said:

There is no big difference for rover around KSC, but might be too powerfull to go a bit further on Kerbin surface with it. But, on the other hand, that might be too boring to do in early career for science grinding and rover might not be a thing to use on Mun or Minimus in early career, you will unlock other stuff too quickly, before even try to build Mun or Minimus rover.

Forgot to mention, it was painfull to watch @TheReadPanda to do manual install of those mods and troubleshoot mod conflicts. Even gamers that are familiar how mods work in KSP and know how to do it manualy can make mistake and easy install older dependency mod packed along with primary mod that wish to install. Experienced user might quickly figure out that something is odd and where he made a mistake, but other users might not be of such luck and will bloat various mod threads with false bug reports.

A lot better communication is needed between moders, users and CKAN staff, to make CKAN more reliable install manager, hopefully latest events going in that direction.

Sorry if it seemed painful. But I kind of feel forced into that situation as either I use CKAN, and leave out a bunch of mods I want/need. Or I do it all manually, or I mix the two and hope for the best.

The worst part is when multiple mods have the same dependencies but one mod is using the right version and one is using an older version and you can't tell easily at first.

I would love it if something like CKAN was universally supported or the like, and I feel like it /was/ more supported not long ago. However I have noticed a division in the mod community about this issue. I do not want to add to that drama here but something needs to be done, especially if there is any hope of including mods in a package form usable by the console versions that are due out.

 

That said, and more to the point for @Yemo is I love his mod. It really is nice. I feel like things are 'right' in that I send probes to places long before kerbals. While in stock (slightly modded) ksp I send kerbals to Minmus often before I send a probe! (Depending... on other mods such as life support, remote tech etc).

Only issue I am really having is how it integrates with some other mods. I am getting through tech tree nodes even in CTT faster than I expected. Perhaps I need to remove some science mods (although I do love them) or down the percentages default for science gain.

Also, I love how the thermometer and barometer are far before things like the Science JR, which... well, yeah, we learned to tell what the temperature was LONG before some fancy goo experiment, right?  

Anwyay, just a nice thumbs up to all of @Yemo's hard work.

[Yemo]

On 10.7.2016 at 1:35 PM, Antonio432 said:

@Yemo I just want to thank you, for creating such amazing mods and being so supportive whenever someone encounters a bug.

&

8 hours ago, TheReadPanda said:

That said, and more to the point for @Yemo is I love his mod. It really is nice. I feel like things are 'right' in that I send probes to places long before kerbals. While in stock (slightly modded) ksp I send kerbals to Minmus often before I send a probe! (Depending... on other mods such as life support, remote tech etc).

Only issue I am really having is how it integrates with some other mods. I am getting through tech tree nodes even in CTT faster than I expected. Perhaps I need to remove some science mods (although I do love them) or down the percentages default for science gain.

Also, I love how the thermometer and barometer are far before things like the Science JR, which... well, yeah, we learned to tell what the temperature was LONG before some fancy goo experiment, right?  

Anwyay, just a nice thumbs up to all of @Yemo's hard work.

Thank you for your feedback! A different perspective really helps a lot for the development!

Yeah, the balancing is a major problem, taking not only mods into account, but also modes, like science mode.

For quite a while I toyed with the idea of drastically reducing science payouts from contracts. Since those would not be available in science mode, they always inflate science for career games. On the other hand, some career specifics (funds, building upgrades) restrict the reach of missions and thus availability of biome experiments. Therefore I was reluctant to slash them too much. But with more and more evidence accumulating, I decided to now reduce the contract science payouts from current levels (with SETIcontracts installed). Half for the milestone contracts, and removed (with few exceptions) for SETIcontracts. Thus experiments are the clearly dominating source of science in both career and science mode, while contracts pay for the restrictions unique to career mode (funds and reputation).

This makes science much more predictable and uniform between the two game modes, improving the ability to balance them with tech node costs.

Will be done with the next release of SETIcontracts.

 

In other news:

There are updates almost ready for UbM and SETIrebalance. Aside from minor changes (wheels), the big change will be a reevaluation of RemoteTech, especially in terms of masses, EC/s, ranges!! and tech node positions.

With special attention to stock + OuterPlanets as well as NewHorizons + OuterPlanets.

I tried to keep it as non-damaging to existing vessels/designs/missions as possible, though with a general rebalance, that is not always possible. So here are the changes that could prove troublesome:

1. The lesser antennas and dishes got increases to their masses (everything up to KR-7 has max 10kg more mass, the Communotron 88-88 has 20kg more mass). Though those increases are fairly modest and deltaV reserves should be able to absorb them.

2. The cone of the KR-14 is lowered from 0.04 degrees to 0.03 degrees. Which might lead to additional problems when pointing from Eve to Kerbin when they are both close together, to reach sats in keo sync orbit.

3. The CommTech-1 range is reduced from 350Gm to 270Gm. No issue for stock system, but for other systems, try switching to the GX-128 for new missions.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Yemo

[Yemo]

Some additional info:

ad2: But since RemoteTech now allows you to "redirect" your dishes even without connection, that should be less of an issue.

4. DO NOT USE the HG-55, it will be totally rebalanced (compared to it's remote tech values at the moment)!!!

5. When NewHorizons is installed, ranges of stock and RemoteTech antennas and dishes are simply doubled (thus CommTech-1 with NewHorizons has a new range of 540Gm), while all other stats are kept the same. Since NewHorizons has bigger distances from Kerbol and thus generally less effective solar panels compared to stock.

6. All other mass, range, EC/s changes should be beneficial. Eg except for the GX-128, the max consumption is 0.15 EC/s (150 Watt, pretty much in line with the Voyager communication at about 135 Watt). This makes solar powered Jool and beyond missions more viable (since solar panels are only about 3.5% as effective around Jool as they are around Kerbin).

Edited July 11, 2016 by Yemo

[Yemo]

First "development" update of SETIcontracts in a long time.

Deals with some of the "too much science" in career @TheReadPanda, as well as the boring kerbin landing contract (unfortunately only the probe one) and some minor stuff (first missions to atmo planets).

Also in preparation of the great new features from @nightingale`s Contract Configurator 1.15.x.

SETI Contracts v0.9.7.1 (for KSP 1.1.x)

Science rewards

• Removed science rewards from most SETIcontracts
• Stock milestone science rewards nerfed (halfed) again

Contract parameter changes

• Powered landing contract requires you to land near the black monolith north of KSC
• But just the unmanned landing contract, since TakeCommand does not work at the moment
• Flyby contracts to planets with atmosphere (Eve, Duna) now require you to get science from flying high there as well
• So you essentially have to slightly dip into the atmosphere
• Pressure at those levels should be low enough to not snap/heat explode anything (but there is only one way to find out)

Adjustments in anticipation of ContractConfigurator 1.15.x

[Yemo]

Oh and I almost forgot:

If you want a more historical contract progression, ditch SETIcontracts and take a look at
Contract Pack: Historical Progression from @pap1723!

Works very well with UbM tech progression, don't forget to leave feedback in the historical progression thread:

 

[pap1723]

5 minutes ago, Yemo said:

Oh and I almost forgot:

If you want a more historical contract progression, ditch SETIcontracts and take a look at
Contract Pack: Historical Progression from @pap1723!

Works very well with UbM tech progression, don't forget to leave feedback in the historical progression thread:

 

Thanks!!

[Ant432]

@Yemo Concerning the contract and milestone science nerfs, do you recommend a different science slider change or is 60% still good.

[Yemo]

4 hours ago, Antonio432 said:

@Yemo Concerning the contract and milestone science nerfs, do you recommend a different science slider change or is 60% still good.

60% still works well, though I will adjust the recommendations for the OP a bit, thank you for the reminder, really need to update the first post!

 

And the 2 updates for UbM and SETIrebalance, with the focus on wheels and RemoteTech (especially concerning OPM & NewHorizons):

 

SETI Rebalance v0.9.7.1 (for KSP 1.1.x )

Situation and biome mask rebalancing, inspired by Kerbalism mod

• EVA report not available while flying low
• So no reason to do an EVA report while standing on the ladder of a landed craft
• But still possible to do a "kerbal" daredevil stunt while dipping into Jool's upper atmosphere...

RemoteTech antenna and dish rebalancing

• In order to better align with OPM, NewHorizons, gameplay and realism
• All ranges of the stock and RT parts are doubled when NewHorizons is installed
• DP-10, mass from 5kg to 10kg, EC/s from 0.05 to 0.04 (40Watt)
• Communotron 16, mass from 5 kg to 10kg, EC/s from 0.06 to 0.05
• EXP-VR-2T, mass from 10kg to 15kg, range from 3Mm to 3.5Mm, EC/s from 0.08 to 0.07
• Communotron 32, mass from 10kg to 20kg, EC/s from 0.16 to 0.1
• Comms DTS-M1, EC/s from 0.2 to 0.12, mass from 30kg to 40kg
• KR-7, EC/s from 0.2 to 0.12, mass from 50kg to 60kg
• HG-55, range from 25Gm to 700Mm, EC/s to 0.15, cone to 4, mass to 80kg
• Communotron 88-88, mass from 0.1 to 0.12 tons, EC/s from 0.21 to 0.15
• KR-14, range from 60Gm to 90Gm, EC/s from 0.21 to 0.15, cone from 0.04 to 0.03
• CommTech1, mass from 0.3 to 0.24 tons, range from 350Gm to 270Gm, EC/s from 0.3 to 0.15, cone from 0.006 to 0.01
• GX-128, range from 400Gm to 700Gm, EC/s from 0.34 to 0.20, cone still at 0.005
• Some prices adjusted as well

Mass rebalancing

• Illuminator Mk2 mass from 15kg to 5kg
• Illuminator Mk1 mass from 15kg to 10kg, still freaking heavy, but I guess that is the kerbal way
• RoveMax Model S2 mass from 50kg to 15kg
• RoveMax Model M1 mass from 75kg to 40kg
• TR-2L ruggedized wheel mass from 50kg to 80kg
• RoveMax Model XL3 mass from 1250kg to 160kg

 

 

Unmanned before Manned v1.0.9.4 (for KSP 1.1.x)

Tech Adjustments

• Communotron 88-88 earlier at advElectrics
• Comms DTS-M1 earlier at electrics
• HG-55 antenna earlier at electrics
• Atmospheric Fluid Spectro-Variometer at electronics
• RoveMax Model XL3 earlier at fieldScience
• FL-A5 flat adapter and micronode earlier at structuralParts, thank you @pap1723
• RockomaxBrandAdapter2 earlier at generalConstruction
• Some more part placement changes for MOLE & ChopShop
• Buffalo Bear Cup wheels to engineering101, thank you @TheReadPanda
• Buffalo Omni Wheels to spaceExploration, thank you @TheReadPanda

Cost Rebalances

• Thermo, Baro, Accelerometer prices set to SETIrebalance levels, to prevent early bankruptcy

Craft file updates

• Improved controllability for many designs
• All A-series VAB vessels are now usable without any building upgrades (max 30parts, 18 tons)
• New B-series design for early probe mission to Duna (and Ike), 30 parts, but around 40 tons

 

[RealGecko]

Can you, please, update CKAN release of SETI CommunityTechTree?

[Ant432]

@Yemo So, now that Contract Configurator added a hyper-usefull feature to view which mod adds which contract and see the full list of contracts avaible and you could do any contract you meet the requirements of, so that fixed the contracts disappearing thing. Also i wanted to note the Reaction Wheels thing. Yes in stock they were super-overpowered, so it's a good thing you nerfed them but still kept them "magical" which is realistic since reaction wheels do work like RCS without thrust in rela life but they depend alot on magnetospheres of planets or moons, which I don't know is replicatable in KSP. So an interesting gameplay idea would be to render Reaction Wheels useless above a certain altitude, depending on the magnetospheres of planets, it would be easiest for them to lose their ability when you reach "High in Space above planet".

Edited July 14, 2016 by Antonio432

[Sol Invictus]

@Yemo I want to make sure, is SETI Greenhouse fully compatible with Realism Overhaul TAC Life Support config for KSP 1.1.3?

[Yemo]

On 14.7.2016 at 11:06 AM, RealGecko said:

Can you, please, update CKAN release of SETI CommunityTechTree?

SETIctt is on hiatus at the moment, so that I can concentrate on some of the other projects and test out planned features for the redevelopment.

 

23 hours ago, Antonio432 said:

@Yemo So, now that Contract Configurator added a hyper-usefull feature to view which mod adds which contract and see the full list of contracts avaible and you could do any contract you meet the requirements of, so that fixed the contracts disappearing thing. Also i wanted to note the Reaction Wheels thing. Yes in stock they were super-overpowered, so it's a good thing you nerfed them but still kept them "magical" which is realistic since reaction wheels do work like RCS without thrust in rela life but they depend alot on magnetospheres of planets or moons, which I don't know is replicatable in KSP. So an interesting gameplay idea would be to render Reaction Wheels useless above a certain altitude, depending on the magnetospheres of planets, it would be easiest for them to lose their ability when you reach "High in Space above planet".

In reality, "reaction wheels" saturate and then need to dump momentum. There is a mod called semi-saturatable reaction wheels, which goes in that direction and makes them much less magical.

Since there is so much stuff that can be fixed with configs, and so few modders fixing stuff with configs, I want to concentrate on that niche and leave the plugins mainly to other modders.

 

1 minute ago, Sol Invictus said:

@Yemo I want to make sure, is SETI Greenhouse fully compatible with Realism Overhaul TAC Life Support config for KSP 1.1.3?

I do not check for compatibility with RealismOverhaul. With regards to TAC LS for KSP 1.1.3, I can only tell that I did not hear any complaints and I did not see anything which would indicate an issue.

 

SETI Rebalance v0.9.7.2 (for KSP 1.1.x )

Balancing

• Oscar B dry mass reduced to 12.5kg from 25kg
• Stock parachute masses and costs are now related to their deployed diameter (...)
• eg 41m Mk2-R 50kg heavier, everything else (much) lighter, along RealChute masses & costs

RemoteTech dish size changes

• KR-14 and CommTech-1 smaller, they now fit within 2.4m
• Thus they can be narrowly protected by 2.5m heat shields, if the craft accurately holds retrograde

[Yemo]

Unmanned before Manned v1.0.9.5 (for KSP 1.1.x)

Part placement changes

• RealChutes stack and double cone chute earlier

Mod Support

• SETIprobeParts (new SETI mod focusing on stock probe sized parts)

 

 

SETI ProbeParts v1.0.0.0 (for KSP 1.1.x)

Provides new stock parts (using stock models) for the 0.625m probe diameter.
Including heat shields, inline RCS, solar panels, shielded docking port, new engine configs and inline probe cores.
Strongly recommended: SETI Rebalance, and a tech tree which makes sense (probably every tech tree except stock...)

From top left to bottom right:

• Small extendable solar panels, 42 EC/s

• Heat Shield 0.65m

• Flat battery, 800EC

• Small Cargo Bay

• Inline Probe Core with integrated thermometer

• Inline Probe Core with integrated thermometer, stronger reaction wheels, more battery power

• Inline monoprop tank with mini RCS (all one part)

• Inline monoprop tank with mini linear RCS (all one part)

• Shielded Docking Port Jr.

• Science Jr 0.625m

• Small retractable solar panels, 42 EC/s

• Deployable/Retractable 2.5m heat shield, 0.625m diameter when stored

• Small SRB

• Small LFO engine

• Mini linear RCS

• Mini RCS

• Small monoprop tank

• Small LFO tank, but larger than OscarB

 

 

Simple sounding rocket:

 

Science return vessel with docking capabilities and stack chute from RealChute:

 

CommSat with reusable, deployable heat shield for aerobreaking and dish from RemoteTech:

 

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Yemo

[secretly_asian]

With SMURFF installed and now recently the SETI mod, I've noticed that my procedural liquid tanks if below a certain size (~3.75m x 2m) has a very *high* negative mass. When making tanks for one of my small low-tech orbiter probes, the dry mass is something like -900kg. Any clue on how to fix?

[Yemo]

@secretly_asian smurff?

[secretly_asian]

4 minutes ago, Yemo said:

@secretly_asian smurff?

 

[Yemo]

@secretly_asian hm, since both seti rebalance and smurff change masses, problems are likely. I recommend choosing between them, not entirely, but with regards to fuel tanks.

[secretly_asian]

2 minutes ago, Yemo said:

@secretly_asian hm, since both seti rebalance and smurff change masses, problems are likely. I recommend choosing between them, not entirely, but with regards to fuel tanks.

Does SETI only affect the procedural parts or does it affect all fuel tanks?

[Yemo]

6 minutes ago, secretly_asian said:

Does SETI only affect the procedural parts or does it affect all fuel tanks?

It has configs for both. Seti part mod squad fuel tanks .cfg or something like that for the stock tanks.

procedural ones are in the procedural folder within seti rebalance.

[TheReadPanda]

Much promo of this mod set on Boosters and Spacetape!

Yay @Yemo

http://boostersandspacetap.libsyn.com

Or look for it on itunes!

Episode 21 (recorded tonight) is the hype for Unmanned before manned!

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by TheReadPanda

[Liondrome]

When using CTT, Dmagic has Universal Storage versions of the Mystery Goo and the Science Junior. These parts appear in Survivability which is much earlier than the Miniaturization and Precision Engineering nodes that the originals show up in. Also I disagree with moving the second Sounding Rockets parachute nose cone to Survivability. By the time you reach that node you are done with Sounding Rockets and are moving onto bigger parts and the MK16 Parachute.

[kcs123]

On 11.07.2016. at 7:10 AM, TheReadPanda said:

Sorry if it seemed painful. But I kind of feel forced into that situation as either I use CKAN, and leave out a bunch of mods I want/need. Or I do it all manually, or I mix the two and hope for the best.

You don't need to apologize, it is understandable why you did it that way. And it is just fine example that even experienced user can make a mistake in install procedure.
"Just drag and drop extracted files into gamedata folder" can be equaly missleading and cause faulty install as if you do it with CKAN.

In most of cases where CKAN create faulty install is because it does not wipe out entire folder on uninstall or re-install. Especialy in cases of lot dependencies for other mods etc. While it is next to impossible (considering manpower and time at disposal for CKAN staff members) to create better programm for this, @politas,it might be a good idea to write down some guidelines for moders. Similar guidelines as it was written for users how to help with troubleshooting can be done for moders, how to create CKAN friendly folder structure, so CKAN machine can handle better install procedure. I can do some of those, but I'm not aware of all cases as people who have wrote metadata for CKAN, so I'm not best person for this.

Of course, some moders will refuse to cooperate for whatever reason, but most of them will and some moders are not familiar with CKAN, how it works, so they come up with complicated folder structure. Slightly changed moder/user behaviour might improve things a lot. It should not be too much workload on moders and it is not much different how they already need to create Plugin and PluginData folder to be more friendly for MM or how to change "foreach" loops into ordinary "for" loops in code as SQUAD asked.

@Yemo, sorry for hijacking a thread for this, I wanted to reply couple of days ago, but get distracted by other things and forgot about it. Nice improvement with UBM, I still didn't have time to check them on 1.1.3., hopefully I can steal some free time soon fot it.

[Yemo]

@TheReadPanda:

Thank you very much!

Will watch the replay!

PS: There seems to be an "e" missing in "tape" http://boostersandspacetape.libsyn.com

 

@Liondrome

Hm, UbM definately has configs for those dmagic/us parts. I ll have to check why they do not work.

By any chance, did you install SETIctt?

 

@kcs123

Oh I totally forgot about ckan, wanted to reply to @politas before.

The issue of deleting folders which are used by multiple mods is easily solved, by configuring the install instructions of the mod:

Eg if the install instructions are

"install": [
  {
     "file": "AAA",
     "install_to": "GameData"
  }
],

Then the folder AAA gets deleted upon uninstall/update.

If the install instructions are

"install": [
  {
     "file": "AAA/BBB",
     "install_to": "GameData/AAA/BBB"
  }
],

OR

"install": [
  {
     "find": "BBB",
     "install_to": "GameData/AAA/BBB"
  }
],

Then the folder BBB gets deleted upon uninstall/update, while the folder AAA is not deleted upon uninstall/update.

 

It is then simply a matter of adjusting the install instructions once, to respect that scheme. And only really necessary for the mods which use common folders.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Yemo

[politas]

Just now, Yemo said:

@TheReadPanda:

Thank you very much!

Will watch the replay!

PS: There seems to be an "e" missing in "tape" http://boostersandspacetape.libsyn.com

 

@Liondrome

Hm, UbM definately has configs for those dmagic/us parts. I ll have to check why they do not work.

By any chance, did you install SETIctt?

 

@kcs123

Oh I totally forgot about ckan, wanted to reply to @politas before.

The issue of deleting folders which are used by multiple mods is easily solved, by configuring the install instructions of the mod:

Eg if the install instructions are

"install": [
  {
     "file": "AAA",
     "install_to": "GameData"
  }
],

Then the folder AAA gets deleted upon uninstall/update.

If the install instructions are

"install": [
  {
     "file": "AAA/BBB",
     "install_to": "GameData/AAA/BBB"
  }
],

Then the folder BBB gets deleted upon uninstall/update, while the folder AAA is not deleted upon uninstall/update.

 

It is then simply a matter of adjusting the install instructions once, to respect that scheme. Problem solved.

That would indeed be simple. Doesn't work with TextureReplacer texture set mods, though.

Really, it takes a perspective gained from working with CKAN metadata for a while, so trust me when I say that there is no simple solution that will work for all cases. I don't think we can really clean up without some additional metadata about what files a mod might create, and even then, we'd need to prompt the user to make sure they want to delete the config.