daedaelus

Im glad this is going to continue Mike i sent you some specs on shuttle differences that might help you in a pm.

So many hands in the cookie jar is the problem and was the problem before. This project needs to be a bit less transparent. Mike pick your team and use steam or skype to communicate without public involvement. Restrict information and do not give offical release dates. This is how many development games and mods go this way. This thread is way too active to get anything done. Its sad to see the shuttle die again. Please if you do quit release everything open source on github so maybe it can live another day.

It is getting blown out of proportion as i said in my earlier post Mike your doing a great job but it seems a few of your dev team had some concerns.

Github would definitely improve the confusion and lets face it this is what many other modders do. KSO for example still is officially at .90 but they are github developing and not putting a public release outside of github until they are finished. As for merging parts im not sure why we need to do this. Some people change the shuttle to their specs. For example on my "fun" 1.6 gaming version i have added jet engines (like the buran) so i can have a easier time landing. I also add scansat stuff and whatever else my mind creates. This game is like having unlimited access to a hobby shop model plane isle. People are going to mix and match and do what they want to do. As im not sure the control surface would be the best example of this but engines for example. Maybe someone decides to change them? The mod is not complicated to build so going back to my earlier post. If it aint broke don't fix it. To be fair Mike has not posted yet so i would imagine hes at work or not around at the moment. When he sees this thread im sure hes going to feel a bit blasted but i think this (test release) is getting a little blown out of proportion it was a test release through those who specifically asked for it. A few changes where made that dident work out. Im sure it will be corrected but hes yet to respond. He also should not need to defend himself as this is ultimately his project right now. Hes been given a suggestion now its up to him if he wants to roll with it. This mod has came along way in a very short time under his supervision so he deserves some credit. Im sure hes got a lot on his plate not including real life and work. If anyone is getting pressured at the moment it is him as this is the 2nd time this mod has been revived.

For the record as a tester im glad to provide feedback. I keep backups of working versions and use a isolated install with only a few necessary mods. If it does not work then the feedback is posted and in no way would i even consider it pressure or an obligation. As a tester i understand exactly what im being given the mod for. To test and report issues. I cant speak for others but lets also not forget that sometimes mods can have unforeseen issues on other peoples setups or conflict with other mods that one single person (with a single set of hardware and game config). This cant be discovered without a defined testing team with diverse setups. I do not see anyone that needs to feel pressured. This is a development thread not a release thread. Nobody should have any expectations of this mod until it hits the "release" phase. The front page still has 1.6 so im not seeing anything being rushed to the public. AVC puts everyone on the next version when this is a dev release. I understand this for a public release but at this point either a github with changes could record progress or simply limit it to people wanting to test and report and know this could include possible broken versions. One of the biggest issues i have testing the mod is not knowing what was changed so i can try and replicate issues or push new changes to the limit and report back. If people need a 100% stable finished shuttle right now, there are plenty of stocklike versions, 1.6 works well and of course lets not forget KSO. They also should not be on the development forums looking for stable finished releases. KSP was in early access for along time and i think people had the same understanding that things may not work properly the first time. But most of the die hard KSP fans knew it was early access so we understood it, reported it to the devs and progress was made each version.

I agree with Jeast, the areo model in the last version before the model updates actually worked quite well. It might just be worth using those again. The shuttle itself is a hard aircraft to fly even in real life it was a flying brick with no atmospheric engines for a 2nd try. Also the shuttle had many landing zones just in-case there where mistakes made. In KSP we have 2 divided by water so you only get one chance. The only areo (if this counts) i saw that needed some love was the SRB separation which looks to be improved in this version. As the old saying goes "If it aint broke don't fix it". Due to some google drive updates and dropbox keeping the version numbers in line is a bit rough im not sure what version i have (before today's) that had the good areo model but ill be glad to provide in a PM if needed. It might be worth setting up a github for this so we can better keep track of the version and changes.

This is how the development of this shuttle should be. Its great to see everyone working together. The Space Shuttle was one of the most important aspects of the space program. Im glad everyone working on this.

Adding a reaction wheel in the cargo bay helped a bit with orbital control im maybe the reaction control in the engine mount is off. It sure does love to roll over a lot. I am however loving the SRB sep its definitely a step in the right direction. It no longer "ejects" it up in the air and flips around. Other than than the areo issue with this separation abort to orbit is a lot safer.

Roll is very helpful to get the right launch protocol. It would be very useful and i also watch this thread like a wide eyed child waiting to open a Christmas present.

Tossing this out there, for some parts NASA actually provides you models that are free to use. You might be able to get some textures or parts from it. http://nasa3d.arc.nasa.gov/detail/sso-3ds and http://nasa3d.arc.nasa.gov/models#S I know the SRB license was in question so there is also this http://nasa3d.arc.nasa.gov/detail/shuttle-parts-hi-res Internal IVA Textures from NASA http://nasa3d.arc.nasa.gov/detail/ov-102-panels Note that all NASA resources distributed are for educational use and do not need permission to use.

I dont really see why it matters how many people make a space shuttle. If you have fun doing it then go for it, everyone has their unique styles there is more than one proton, more than one soyuz and so many apollo style capsules i have lost count. Everyone has their own ideas and own ways of doing things. Some people go for direct simulation/realism and some go for more stock-like or easy to use. If you want some new ideas maybe go for some proof of concept addons to your version. The shuttle program was canceled but they had a lot of plans for the future if the program continued. You could even move into fantasy or sci-fi such as the X-71 from amageddon http://orig06.deviantart.net/5557/f/2014/143/b/8/x_71_military_shuttle_ortho_by_unusualsuspex-d7760ju.jpg or the new X-37B http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/x-37b.jpg its entirely up to your imagination and what is FUN for you to do. Im sure if it is good looking and works someone out there will enjoy it and that all that matters.

It would be a shame to see this mod die after so much work. It would be the 2nd time the CSS has been worked on.

Any chance of a WIP release for us to play with over the weekend

I did a significant amount of research on the Russian shuttle a while back if you need any help with technical info ill do my best to track it down for you.

I know your working really hard on this and probably are short on time but if you ever want to sit down and watch something this is a great documentary that has the birth of the shuttle start to finish in videos narrated by William Shatner. Its a great documentary to learn about the evolution of the shuttle and all the tests and trials they did to bring it to life. It may inspire some career mode stuff for you and might clear up any unknowns.

Based on a documentary i watched there was 4 generations of shuttles. We had the Enterprise prototype. Then there was Columbia and Challenger which where more science oriented and did not have docking modules off the line. These shuttles had a bigger science role and also where planned to have the spacelab module. When the Daedalus project (later the ISS) project was approved Discovery and Atlantis had docking modules (to dock with mir at the time) and had more of a "space truck" mindset. Some lighter materials where used in its construction they learned after building the first 2. Endeavor was the last to be built (replacing challenger) which had the best of all the shuttles. Endeavor was the newest and as such implemented corrections to later determined flaws in the earlier shuttles. As all of the shuttles got upgrades to be comparable to the rest each and every one had some minor differences and got built in different time frames where the government had different roles for them. In conclusion this can be the case with the shuttles tech tree. You can start with enterprise launch from the 747 and land. Move into more science based missions with Challenger and Columbia, Discovery and Atlantis start launching satellites, probes and docking with things finally moving into endeavor which was built in a time ISS construction was the priority of the shuttle program. As each shuttle had a name they also had unique numbers. OV-102 Columbia, OV-099 Challenger, OV-103 Discovery, OV-104 Atlantis, and OV-105 Endeavour From wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle Orbiter add-ons The orbiter could be used in conjunction with a variety of add-ons depending on the mission. This included orbital laboratories (Spacelab, Spacehab), boosters for launching payloads farther into space (Inertial Upper Stage, Payload Assist Module), and other functions, such as provided by Extended Duration Orbiter, Multi-Purpose Logistics Modules, or Canadarm (RMS). An upper stage called Transfer Orbit Stage (Orbital Science Corp. TOS-21) was also used once.[50] Other types of systems and racks were part of the modular Spacelab system â€â€pallets, igloo, IPS, etc., which also supported special missions such as SRTM. You guys are doing great work and i hope this research helps with your tech tree setup.

Did the actual shuttle use a docking cam?

I dont really see any need for the high part count but i really like the textures.

Translated

Looks cool man i see your launching it with energia instead of the ET/SRB setup. Is that due to incompatibility?. I like the solar panels (as an option) even though i do not believe the US ever used that setup. With all respect to bobcat it would be great to see a upgraded Buran which this seems to have many features of.

Im really stoked to see the future versions of this. As much as im seeing people complain and sometimes get ahead of themselves i will say Mike you are doing a great job. I have fully built a ISS size space station of my own i have been working on since Friday. All using the work you have done on the shuttle. As of course all things can use improvements if you pick it enough i think you did a dang good job and i signed into to the forums just to tell you that. Keep up the great work and im looking forward to the future of the CSS.

I would imagine that nasa would calculate all missions to be as efficient as possible and keep the vehicle as light as possible on re-entry. Im not sure how they do it or if they do it but this is what works for me. When i have too much fuel i loose control of the vehicle.

I do not know much about FAR i do not use it but for normal re-entry make sure your left over fuel level is below 400. I use the dump valves from the space shuttle engine pack to make sure im either as low as possible or empty on re-entry. Remember the shuttle is a brick trying to be a glider so any additional weight needs to be chucked. Also due to the mountains before KSP airstrip i tend to land on the island runway more often so i have extra room to line up my landing. Also nothing says you can add some small jet engines to the rear tail wing much like the russian buran in-case you need to speed up for another pass. The NASA shuttle was originally going to have atmospheric engines but due to cost constraints it never made it into the final blueprints. I believe they where going to extend from the OMS pods.

Those changes worked however the stock trim did not. For those interested here is the sweet spot settings. OMS Right X-Trim 14 Y-Trim -5 OMS Left X-Trim -14 Y-Trim -5 After a lot of testing this seems to be the sweet spot. Depending on payload sometimes an additional reaction control in-front of the engine mount (rear of cargo bay) definitely helps with control of the vehicle on OMS burn. As there is a reaction wheel in the engine mount for some reason i cant control the settings properly on it or maybe im just doing it wrong. For those reading this remember it does require KM_gimble for this to work properly. For those using mechjeb this plugin (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/60933-Optional-MechJeb-Modules-for-FAR-NEAR-km_Gimbal-%28Oct-19%29) is extremely helpful with accent control. Using this plugin with the "force roll" setting accent really helps. Also for re-entry i recommend dumping any remaining fuel under 400 for a smooth landing. I hope all this helps.

Its alright i completely understand, am i right in the gimble thing? I could just match the settings. Also im a shuttle nut on KSP thats mostly all i do if you pm me what you have i would be glad to beta test it for you and provide you feedback.