SpinkAkron

@Pand5461, after pondering it awhile, I agree you are correct re the OKTO and reaction wheel. I've moved the OKTO down to stability and the the Small Reaction Wheel up to Flight Control.

I changed my other mind back to plan A and used rescaled stock engines rather than using the one from Missing History. I want to avoid having required mods if it can be avoided. I got rid of the Ven's parts for the same reason. Instead I made a set of .625m tanks from rescaled stock. I don't see any reason to avoid using rescaled parts. I certainly do not have the inclination to spend a couple weeks making them from scratch. They're fine for now, in any case. I'll look at using upgrades at some point but for now I'm more concerned with getting the tech tree and stock part placement complete. I expanded the precision engine line back and forward to split out specialized engines. Nodes are still un-named and it's all an experiment at this stage. Missing History got some more attention. Antennas are still scattered all over the place. I'll do them next. Download updated.

I unsquished the tech tree, taking advantage of the unused space. This enabled me to better integrate a few orphan tech lines. The colonization line dangling off the bottom was moved up to the survivability line and will be where the life support and habs can go. The heat management line was moved up above the solar panels, integrating between high power electric and nuclear power, which fits nicely above that. I haven't decided what to do with Nuclear Propulsion so I stuck it on the top for now. Download updated.

@panzer1b that looks really cool!

Here's the first cut of the size0/.625m parts start. I created a new LV-T10 engine resized from the LV-T30, serving that role at size0. I resized the LV-T15 from Missing History to fill the role of size0 gimbled engine. We don't need it in the size1/1.25m line anyway. I like @Pand5461's idea of 1.25m SRBs being available much earlier than 1.25m LFEs. I'm not sure about having the Flea at start due to the availability of the size0 srbs from Vens, but I'm open to being persuaded. Tier 1(start) - LV-T10 LFE, RT-1 SRB Tier 2 - RT-2 SRB, RT-5 SRB, Mk1 -> 0 Adapter Tier 3 - LV-T15 LFE, RT-10 SRB, radial decoupler Tier 4 - LV-T30, LV-T45 I'd like to keep the OKTO in tier 4 and the small reaction wheel in tier 3. It make sense that reaction wheels are developed first and then combined with the probe core. That gives a 2 parts -> 1 part efficiency gain at tier 4. Steering/control is a deliberate pain point prior to tier 3 I've untangled the rocketry line a bit. The Propulsion Systems line can now be extended back giving a tier 4 node separate from Advanced Rocketry so we can divide up the boosters from the upper stage/specialized engines or however makes sense. It can now be extended past tier 6. Space is available for a third engine line to be developed if needed. Having Nuclear Propulsion developing from rocket engines and fuel tanks doesn't make much sense. I've disconnected it for now pending relocation. That big clot of nuclear power nodes in the upper right needs be relocated to the bottom, I'm thinking. I don't know why they squished everything together leaving about a third of the space unused. I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and rectify that cuz OCD. @theonegalen- FYI, I'm changing the pos of every node. If that's relevant to your work, you might want to hold off a bit. download updated tech tree spreadsheet is hopelessly out of date.

@Pand5461, now that is a really good idea. I'll work today on getting the basics of the .625m start set up. I don't have a much experience playing past tier 5 or so. If you have any thoughts on how the subsequent engines should be positioned, I'd love to hear them. Initial thoughts: tier 1- LV-T5 - .625m w/o gimble (rescaled LV-T30). Also one of the .625m srbs from Vens . tier 2 - LV-T10 - .625m w/ gimble (Rescaled LV-T45). LV-T5/LV-T10 would have the same relationship and relative power as LV-T30/LV-T45 tier 3 - LV-T15 from Missing History, would be the first 1.25m engine. RT-5 SRB would move from start to here. We can also look at tweaking tech costs of the various tiers to even out pacing, if needed.

Cool. Thanks for the test. The battery on the probe is sufficient to fly it but not sufficient to transmit, even if the antenna could handle the stress. That's intentional . It exposes a fail point that is the lead-in to Engineering 100 giving the Z-100 battery and more durable antenna. Kind like telling little stories. Expose a weakness and offer the solution. My thought is it should take about tier 3 to get to orbit. How many missions that takes is determined by the science slider. A slower pace gives me more satisfaction so I play with it set < 50%. Other folks like to rush thru so they can play with it set higher. The split is where the aviation line splits off from the aerodynamics line. Stock has that happen on the aerodynamics node. I moved it back one tier to aviation . Makes more sense to me. I'll quit messing with aviation lines until you have time to determine which nodes you'd like. IMO, this tree is a bit of a mess and it's hard for me to refrain from 'fixing' it.

More Tech Tree edits/simplifications. Removed the CTT Subsonic Flight line - unneeded. Split aircraft/aerodynamics line at tier 5. @theonegalenDoes the aircraft/aerodynamics split even make sense? Should these two be combined? Removed Landing line - too specialized. Moved parts to construction/actuators. I'm beginning to think I would have been better off adding nodes to the stock tree rather than with removing nodes from CTT. download updated.

@theonegalen, I've had a config for Missing History in the mod support folder for quite awhile. It's only got the Pod moved so far. If you notice anything else out of place please let me know. I really appreciate your offer to do the airplanes mods. I'll also defer to you on the stock aircraft parts placement, so let me know where you think they should be to align with your mod configs. Does the Subsonic Flight path have any usefulness or should I just prune that? I'm going to move the split between aerodynamic and aircraft to Aviation rather that at Aerodynamics to the two paths are cleaner. That would open up a tier 5 aircraft node. I can change the aviation line on the tech tree to whatever you need. @Pand5461, thanks! I've been wondering what to do with those engine plates as I haven't used them yet. If we have smaller engines earlier, those plates would have more of a use. I had discarded the idea of .625m parts at start since I figured they'd only get used a couple times and it wasn't worth the effort required to alter the tech. But since it seems popular, I'll un-discard it. I don't want to move an upper stage engine to start. I want an early booster. What I have in mind is a re-scaled LV-T30, calling it a LV-T5. Missing History adds a LV-T15 so it would be the start of that line. Or maybe I should re-scale/re-spec the LV-T15 and make Missing History a required mod. Ven's Stock revamp has some nice Oscar tanks that I think the license would allow me to include. Ven's has several things I like, but has a pretty heavy hand with all it changes. I use a culled version. I'm still tweaking the tech tree. I'm removing links that don't make sense and realigning things. There is the option to make all inputs to a node required rather than merely any of them. That makes more sense to me (used selectively) but I think I would get a lot of pushback on that. I like things that slow down the pace. I would like to avoid the changes to science, resources, game mechanics, etc that so many tech trees also include. That sort of thing is out of scope as far as I'm concerned. To reach a release state, I think all the stock parts and tech tree edits need to be finalized. The configs the airplane mods that set this Tech Tree apart from the others should be done. I'd like to have the life support and near future configs done, among others. Lastly, we need a better name. The only thing I've come up with is Unmanned Before Manned Re-imagined (UBMR). I'm not sure about tying it this closely to UMB. It really is it's own thing. I really appreciate all the input. It's been very valuable and keeps me engaged. Thanks!

@Pand5461, here's my rationale for placing parts. In general, I assume if you have the technical ability to make a part, it follows that you should also have the ability to make a larger or smaller version of that part, barring any evident technical limitations. If there is a technical reason why this should not be true, it should require a higher tech level. For fuel tanks, I believe the tech required would be related to the pressure requirements of the tank. Larger volumes require stronger tanks. The shape or diameter is not relevant. There is no reason why you should not be able to make a short tank of larger diameter if you are able to make a tall tank of a smaller diameter, assuming similar volumes. Whether you are able to build an engine of that size is not relevant. Conversely, just because you have the ability to build a larger engine, it does not necessarily follow that you have the know-how to build the larger diameter tank that goes with it. They are two separate technologies, which it why I split them into two different paths. There should not be any tanks in two nodes on the same tier. If there is, that's a mistake on my part. My plan is that the two paths should generally line up, with short tanks often being available at a lower tech than the associated engine. I've recently decided that I'd like the starting parts to be .625m so that's going to shift everything up the tree a tier or two. I haven't really thought too much about how engines should be arranged other than bigger is higher up. I appreciate your input on that.

@theonegalen, do you mind if I adapt and include some of your UBM extensions with this mod? I have zero experience with the aircraft mods.

I've got the OKTO at Flight Control, tier 4. I moved the small reaction wheel to Stability tier 3 as the lead up to the OKTO integrating the reaction wheels into the probe core. I'm trying to find/arrange logical connections like that.

Big update. After reviewing what @theonegalen has done with his UBM extensions to support early aviation, I decided I was being way too timid with my tech tree edits. I scrapped my original plan to move Aviation to tier 2 and instead reworked the early tiers of the tech tree. Two new nodes have been added to tier 2 - Fabrication and Aeronautics. Added to Tier 3 are Basic Construction , Early Aviation, and Gadgets. Tier 4 got one new node - Gizmos. Fabrication is the new beginning to the Construction line. This will include structural parts and fuel tanks. It connects to the new tier 3 Basic Construction node, then to tier 4 General Construction. All fuel tanks have been moved down from the Rocket line with the exception of Basic Rocketry. Aeronautics begins the Aviation/Aerodynamics line. This links to tier 3 Early Aviation, then on to tier 4 Aviation. Gadgets is a new tier 3 node that links from Engineering 101. It doesn't make sense to me that Survivability (parachutes and heat shields) was the beginning of the Science/Electronics line. Gadgets take on this role and Survivability links to Advanced Survivablity only. Gadgets links to tier 4 nodes Basic Science and Gizmos. Basic Science has been de-linked from Electrics, Recycling, and Storage Tech and linked instead to Space Exploration. New tier 4 node Gizmos links to Electrics, Recycling, and Storage Tech. I've balanced the additional nodes by lowering the science costs to 3 for tier 2, 10 for tier 3, and 38 for tier 4. This gives a total of 330 for nodes 2-4 compared to 333 for stock. screenshot added to 1st post download and spreadsheet updated.

Thanks for another mod I didn't even know I needed til you made it!

I've made my first pass at arranging the fuel tanks. Rather than having the tech level based on fuel tank diameter, I think it makes more sense to have it based on volume. Some tanks will move up a tier or down a tier but most stayed the same, I think. I think this will also help guide positioning of modded parts. Tier 2 Basic Rocketry Oscar-B Fuel Tank 40 FL-T100 Fuel Tank 100 Tier 3 General Rocketry FL-T200 Fuel Tank 200 Tier 4 Advanced Rocketry FL-T400 Fuel Tank 400 FL-TX440 Fuel Tank 440 FL-A150 Fuel Tank Adapter 160 FL-A151S Fuel Tank Adapter 160 FL-TX220_Fuel_Tank 220 Tier 5 Fuel Systems FL-T800 Fuel Tank 800 Rockomax X200-8 Fuel Tank 800 C7 Brand Adapter - 2.5m to 1.25m 800 C7 Brand Adapter Slanted - 2.5m to 1.25m 800 FL-TX900 Fuel Tank 900 FL-A151L Fuel Tank Adapter 600 Tier 6 Advanced Fuel Systems Rockomax X200-16 Fuel Tank 1600 Kerbodyne ADTP-2-3 3000 Rockomax X200-32 Fuel Tank 3200 Kerbodyne S3-3600 Tank 3600 FL-A215 Fuel Tank Adapter 1200 FL-C1000 Fuel Tank 1200 FL-TX1800_Fuel_Tank 1800 Tier 7 Large Volume Containment Rockomax Jumbo-64 Fuel Tank 6400 Kerbodyne S3-7200 Tank 7200 Kerbodyne S3-S4 Adapter Tank 6400 Kerbodyne S4-64 Fuel Tank 6400 Tier 8 High Performance Fuel Systems Kerbodyne S3-14400 Tank 14400 Kerbodyne Engine Cluster Adapter Tank 9000 Kerbodyne S4-128 Fuel Tank 12800 Tier 9 Specialized Fuel Systems Kerbodyne S4-256 Fuel Tank 25600 Kerbodyne S4-512 Fuel Tank 51200 The 3 small fuel tanks from Propulsion Systems/Precision Propulsion don't seem like they are particularly 'high tech' and should be available sooner. A case could be made to put them as low as tier 2 but I've put them in tier 4 for now. All RCS tanks were moved down to the Flight Control line. download and spreadsheet updated.

moved to Development Forum [WIP] UnKerballed Start

Release thread : [1.6.X] UnKerballed Start v0.8.0 Continuing from UnKerballed Start Mod Discussion

I hear you but I believe my rationale is sound and I think how I placed the capsules reflects that. I do appreciate your feedback and hope you continue to offer it. I understand not everyone is going to agree with every choice I make but it's easy enough for folks to modify it to fit their play style should they so choose. I think it's probably time to move this to the development forum since things have progressed to the point where it's got a real chance of being completed. I'm going to look into what that entails. Thanks to everyone for the input so far.

Yep.

I've used SETI contracts with every unmanned tech tree I've ever tried (probably nearly all of them over the years). It's my preferred career driver and should work fine. Exploration Plus is also quite good.

Yep, we clearly need more science at start. To me, it makes the most sense to have the thermometer and barometer at start and move the goo up to tier 3 or 4. I think UBM had it that way, or very similar. Now that I look at it, the Goo has a lower science value than the Barometer, so I'll try just moving the Thermometer to start. *more fiddling* Ok. Moving the Thermometer and Barometer to start with the Goo going to Survivability is the way to go. It keeps the same three science experiments by tier 3, so not a big change. I moved the battery down to Start, so you can transmit science. Having a flimsy antenna makes it a bit dicey but you can get 5 science fairly easy now on hard difficulty. UnKerballedStart.zip

After much rather counter-intuitive fiddling, I got the Aviation tech node properly moved to tier 2 and replaced it with the new Advanced Aviation node in tier 4. This means any mods adding parts to Aviation will show in up the tier 2 Aviation node. There is plenty of room to add a couple new aviation-related nodes off of Stability, which I think might be useful. I also moved the Communitron 16 to start. Thanks @Zuthor! UnKerballedStart.zip

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. I use Remote Tech which has a short range antenna that I moved to start. Without it, I have run the goo tests at launch and from the runway, but that's a little hokey. How about we move the Communitron 16 to start and the fragility of that at high speeds lead to the development of the Communitron 16-S in Engineering 101? Transmitting science would also reveal the inadequacy of the Stayputnik's battery that is rectified by the battery also in Engineering 101. -added- With the rover parts in Engineering 101 and the airplane parts in the relocated Aviation node, you have two ways to make a science collecting buggy for the KSC.

I've added a new five point node between Start and Stability. Internally it is called Aircraft but in game it displays the title and description for Aviation. I changed the title and description of Aviation to display Advanced Aviation, but it's otherwise unchanged. All airplane parts I had moved to Start are now in this new Aircraft/Aviation node. The changes to Aviation are cosmetic only so any mods that add parts to Aviation will still show up in the same place, now renamed Advanced Aviation. It's going to be a bit confusing so I may try to truly move Aviation to tier 2 and make the new node tier 4. That's more complicated tho. UnKerballedStart.zip UnKerballedStart Tech Tree Spreadsheet updated

OK. How about if we move the Aviation node to tier 2 and replace the Aviation Tier 4 with something like Advanced Aviation?