AngelLestat

Here I found a link from NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts (NIAC) of how to get down an asteroid to earth: [defunct site link removed by moderator]

In that configuration I will said Fuel cells... you will need to provide oxygen. Or if the period of time is short, then just batteries In addiction: not sure if you need much supercapacitors to the laser short pulses.. Short pulse Lasers already concentrate energy as it was some kind of capacitor. (or maybe someone can correct me here)

But with simple math there are many things that does not match.. -PV lifetime, if you want to achieve the same lifetime than in earth, you need to pay 5 to 10 times more or find another way to solve that problem. -transmission loses, if the main goal with geo solar power is to get 10 times more power, then is a bit pointless if you waste a 60% of that power. But by other hand, your power is more predictive so that is a bonus. All the saves in ground transmission, sun-tracker devices, solid structures against wind or hail that you dont need in space, are also lost by all the extra components you need in space, as a huge microwave emmiter, a lot of radiators, ground antennas, etc. But well, if we solve many of those drawbacks and we include different desgins as solar sails mirrors to eliminate the need to many PV, then for sure it will have sense.. but we are not close to that yet. It needs more research. Yeah, in theory they can, we just need to see if those drawbacks can be solved.. or how much time it will take.. Yeah, but is not the same, you dont get the same quality, when you are talking of graphene or other nano structures which the quality is important in the outcome properties, the value increase much more. That will be you and Nibb31 only, from what I can count in this topic and the other platinum topic. I as many others, we explain already why the price will not crash. Is not just that, each time you need to remove hundreds of extra m3 of ground to get the same weight on minerals. That is extra energy and resources spent that takes us to an inflection point where it will be more easy to get that stuff from space than from earth, more if launch cost keeps dropping. This happen with all technologies, wind and solar reach their inflection point where now are almost more cheap than fossil fuels, because each time cost more money to extract oil and less money to make wind turbines. But wind turbines was in use way before they had economical sense. If you dont prepare the path to the change, it will reach a point where all the world will face an economic collapse, because you need to leave fossil fuels but you dont have any alternative. So even if something is not cost efficient right now, it will be a good investment if you know that is the path that the world will transit some day, so you can charge for patents or technology already develope by you.

When you said intelligence.. I think you want to said "knowledge in the field of this discussion" We are not sure how to measure intelligence yet, there are some IQ test, but they depends on how much practice you got in similar actions. I can get really good scores, but a monkey can beat me in many of those single test if he has practice. Is like play a video game, if we are good in some respective video game does not means we are more intelligent or smart than everybody else. Its prove that our brain dint change much in the last 50000 years, if someone born now and send him 30000 years to the past, he will not be more intelligent than any other guy of that time. Discover something by observation or error and then trying to understand the physsics behind that phenomenon is also science. But if you create a theory from nothing without basis or a math path that guide you to that, then it does not look like science. saying this, I really dont know how this EM theory born and what are their basis, the only that I know is that seems to violates thermodynamics.

No, you can not be guide by that study, there are many things that ignores as power transmission and also make the best cost assumptions for launch (as it will were full reusable). It does not have into account maintenance from what I read.. and many other things.. It also assume huge cost reductions by mass production.. Here you have a book from 2014 on space based solar power. http://es.scribd.com/doc/216866353/The-Case-for-Space-Solar-power-Mankins-2014#scribd There are many drawback that needs to be solve before even think in space solar power. 1: Transmission.. today we can only reach 30% to 40% of efficiency in the transmission, this mean that you not only lose the extra 60%, it also means that your radiators needs to be much bigger to release all that waste heat, so all the benefics in get 10 times more solar power you are wasting in transmission. But well, they said that 60% of efficiency is achievable in the next 10 years. 2: You need some way to focus that energy to a small area in earth, that small area will be no less than 5km, in fact in the books they talk about 10 km diameter, that is a lot of anteenas.. and a huge increase of cost. 3: what happen with the sats under the beam? that is other thing that needs to be solve. 4: lifetime and survival of all components in space.. PV last 10 times less in space unless they are specially designed, which increase the cost 10 times. There are some good ideas of how to manage some things, one is using solar sails as mirrors to concentrate the light, this will be a very light and effective way, but you need to deal with scattering which is very hard. The benefic of solar sails that you may build this thing in low orbit and then use this huge sail mirrors to reach GEO with solar pressure. China and Japan are looking serious into this, some think that it can be launched in 2025, others in 2050. Is something to take into account, but not just yet. I mention a system to allow this here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/129677-The-case-for-an-economy-in-space?p=2103408&viewfull=1#post2103408 But I will need to make some graphics because it will not be easy to understand.. Those values are pointless because you are ignoring the fuel cost and many other costs.To compare different types of energy the value that you need to look up is the levalized cost, which takes into account almost all, like investment, lifetime, capacity factor, maintainence, fuel, etc. http://www.lazard.com/media/1777/levelized_cost_of_energy_-_version_80.pdf

In space yeah.. but that thrust is almost nothing. And instead emmit radio waves, is best to use a laser, which is more collimated. The recoil force will be Force= Power / C If you have a nuclear reactor that generates 1 MW, then 1000000/300000000= 0.003 Newton. To generate that power the reactor is kinda massive, the same for the laser and radiator, so that force is equal to nothing.. It will take you a lot of time to reach some respectable speed. And it will reach the time that your nuclear fuel will be exhaust. So is not a very efficient way to waste that energy, solar sails get the double of acceleration by the same power (because photons bounce, also solar sails can be super light)

So this big annuncement and we can only find a note in "IGN" or "quora", "hacker-magazine"?? I never wanted to enter in this discussion because there was nothing solid to talk about. But I really wish they sent this thing to space once and for all to confirm if it works or not, because all these "ghost test" that it works are starting to be annoying. -If it works.. a big congratulations to the creator and all its fans, lets used and find why it works... -if not.. good.. we can close this topic once for all.

if you sit in that platinum pile, you can sale it at the rate you want.. Nibb, you really need to do some business related studies.. The problem with this idea, is that I imagine that nobody will allow it. There is not accurate calculations on where it will fall or if it will break and cause more area damage (also harder to haverster) Humanity always search ways how to prevent collisions with asteroids, it will be hard for a company try to do the opposite. Also nobody is the owner of the asteroid in space, so when it fall, the first people who reach it will be the owners, depending the country mining rules.

You dont need to assume nothing, in the wiki said that the average anual production expected is 1100GW, the value that you have for the 2014 is maybe because the farm was not completed, this one was finished the same year. What is Sun disk? I found nothing in internet.. I am almost sure that this estimation is wrong, but I need to know what are you specific talking about first. You are answering to someone else, because I am saying almost exactly that in my 4 previous post. With the inverter exception, in solar farms, the inverter is a very low % of the farm cost. You choose an study from 1997 if I dont remember wrong.. that is almost pointless taking into account how prices change. Heh, sorry, but you can agree with just yourself there. Scientist are trying to make "magic" to find remplacements for platinum due its high cost. You dont do that if there is not platinum demand To pollute less, cars just use grams of platinum combined with rhobidium and paradium (which are more cheap) in different cycles to save platinum. Platinum has thousands of uses where is very difficult to remplace it. A fuel cell or electrolysis for home or cars will use many kilograms of that, they not only increase a lot the efficiency, they also have more lifetime. Not to mention industrial fuel cell or electrolysis, where you might need tones. Thermal plants with turbines will be pointless if you can make cheap fuel cells. If your energy or gas production will be big, then choose platinum for electrolysis or fuel cells is justified even at today cost. But you can not mass produce, because it will increase the platinum cost due limit production on platinum mining. So to not increase platinum cost you need to find a different reserve. And if you not only manage to keep the cost but you also drop the cost, then a lot of new products and makets will rise, because there is thousands of things very profit to do with platinum. So you can expect that platinum cost never will drop much.

ok, so you was answering just the first line that was less related? But I mention that because is just another example of how sharing can be productive, from ideas, energy, resources, and task/work. This is an strategy that is starting to rise in many areas, from normal people to companies, etc. Colonizing other planets or mining asteroids will be very hard.. so in this kind of enviroments is where you most need to take the best strategy you can, is the best way to manage risks.. Also, something that all countries learn from history, that colonize dint work so well, they always lose control, this happen with all empires. And right now, people change works more often, they also change their home location very often, it can be in other countries or wherever. So owning things, starts to lose value.. you will lose alot of money and energy if you want to buy houses, furnitudes if probably you will move out few years later. ok I apology, when I read "he shared patents out of self-interest", I understand OUT as the opposite. I also apology to said "But I search it to show you how wrong you are.", I wanted to edit it to "if you dont understand my explanation, maybe they can help:" I was editing, by my internet connection fall heh Sorry.

heh.. how that works?? I apply 1 Newton of force on the moon, which trigger a "movement", then the moon is mine? As I said since this topic begins, there is not law for that yet.. and is the things that needs to be added to the treaty. Nobody can owns celestial bodies that are in space.. you can take them with you inside your ship to the earth (in case you can), but meanwhile is in space.. anyone can mine it. Even if you capture it and place it in low orbit to easy access. So I am not saying that for this case it might count as ownership, but other companies that wants to mine it too, should pay you part of the resources that you already spent it with extra interests. Shynung... how can you answering me a reply that was for someone else, if you dont understand why I did that reply? You need to read my previous post to understand why I reply that.. So if you want to reply me, then reply my previous post, which is the one that tanter dint understand.- - - Updated - - - I dint need to read why elon musk did that because for me its strategic was clear. But I search it to show you how wrong you are. https://hbr.org/2014/07/elon-musks-patent-decision-reflects-three-strategic-truths This is harvard business review... Is the first link in the google search.

Ok thanks Red, now I understand it, I was not imagine the case of a retrograde orbit or any kind of inclination change.

Ok I dint understand it Many technical words in English together. But it seems the others get it. There is not other way to explain this? math, graphs? internet link?

I am agree with this point, but there is also a culture and education issue, in nordic countries, "show off" is frowned upon, people does not use expensive watch or very luxury cars, etc. This is almost a constant in all places where many generations lived in cold weather and hard conditions, they become very efficient with their lifestyle. And that kind of efficiency is what a comunity needs to survive in space. In addiction, please try to not mistake my examples with that "insert bad word here" of zergeist or venus project. Mostly all war todays (many you dont even know that are in war, because there are not mediatic) is between not democracies, or a dictatorship vs democracy. People in democracy has more control about what their country does, also has open commerce with other countries, by the reasons that I explain before, there is not benefics in go to war if you can trade instead. Now sure what you want to said with the last paragraph. If you said that if they comit a crime then authorities will handle.. then we are agree, if is the opposite, not. That thing.. is in british waters, so is subject to british laws. They let it, just as a cuiriosity to get turism.

One advice.. when you are dealing with PV cost and launch cost.. try to find a study with less than 2 years.. in fact 2 years for solar means 40% cost reduction. But as I mention before, this still needs a bit of extra development for thin PV without high decrease in efficiency or increase in cost, and you need that to save weight and be able to transport it rolls, so with if rotates, it will be deploy by centrifugal force, and it does not need structure. I will said 2 to 4 years more (you need to fight also with lifetime). Then the most tricky.. how do you sent that power to ground... there is nothing yet that can solve that without huge efficiency lose and costs. some clarifications.

So they have the same things than anybody else, but they save more money and they have more free time in their houses, but in your definition they are the dumb? They also pollute less doing this. asteroids are resources... not ideas??? what? is like you dint understand nothing of what I said.. You feel proud with that answer? I will be in shame.. You dint get one right... Musk and toyota shared their patents in their benefic, because more electric cars means cheaper batteries for all, and it will be more support and infrastructure for them. So they can expand and produce at the same rate as normal cars. The same for toyota..

Time to learn a new concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharing_economy I dint see any unicorn in those examples, but I will try to look harder... Changes takes time as always, first in some niches, then it will spread to more sectors. This new way to see things where you dont "own" things, is the most efficient in cases where you can apply it, you save resources and money. Elon musk share all their patents of electric cars for free to the competitors, the same did toyota with its hydrogen car. There are huge new neighborhoods that are designed with this sharing point of view. For example if you want to have an ecologic home or just a home that is far from the city without net connection, you need to harvester sun or wind energy, you need to collect water.. but you dont have a constant consumption, also not always there is sun or wind. So you need to storage, how big is your storage? you have a lot of uncertainty, maybe you will not be on home for 2 days... maybe some day you do a party and everybody is in your home.. But if you harverster energy and storage for a whole community, then is more easy to calculate the storage needed and much more cheap. This is like predict the result of drop 1 coin, or drop 1000 coins. In the first case you will be wrong by 50%, in the second case you will be wrong by a 3%. Also the storage and power generated is lower, and you share the initial investment that can be too high for 1 person. The same goes for heated water, Internet connection, or any other service.. The same apply to products as cars, lawn mowers, toys, etc. The same for task as take care the childrens, cook for everyone, etc.. It does not take you much more time cook for 10 than for 1 (the same meal), so in all the times that is not your turn, you are free. Anyone living like this may save more than 80% of its money and task times. So back to the space... you dont have easy access to resources, you have to do all by your self, and everything in space is much more harder.. so how you do it? Sharing... This also apply to any company as if their were single persons, the initial investment can be huge, the risk of business failure high. So better to deal with the problem between many companies, sharing profits and cost of failures. This is something that also many farmers does. You can have some field in one place, but you had the bad luck to lose all your crops by hail. You lost everything and you dont have money to recover yourself. Then some farmers makes coperatives.. where everybody have the same type of crops, but in different places, and they all share lose and profits, they can also sale their product at higher price, because some buyers only do it at huge amounts. And millons of other benefics which are impossible to list them all.

I will said it again: You are all thinking like we were in times before the world war II, or even before.. I will said your way of thinking is from 1500. The time of own new undeclared lands is over, also by the force. Now the world is taking the path of globalization, public opinion has a lot of power now.. politics now try more harder to look like they care of what people think. Now each people is related with many places of the world due its consumption, tastes, culture, friends, business and vacations. So is not more a group of islands fighting between them.. Each time is like a big family, you can have freinds and connections in any place. If some country pollutes the planet it has an influence in you.. There is not efficiency in ownership anymore.. the most efficient lately is share.

Really? so if you mine platinum at a lower cost than on earth.. nobody will buy your product?? And I am not saying that you can get a lower cost right now, just saying that sooner or later with launch cost droping and each time is harder and costly to find platinum in earth, that inflection point will come. I made also some examples how you can sale a product on space with real time orbit camera or a net of sats to manage all orbital speed of all sats and clean the debris. Or the scientific telescope case with tons of small sats. And there is a demand for all that.. but the launch cost is not yet there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand "The Principality of Sealand is an unrecognised self-declared state" Help me up a little bit with my english here.. what "unrecognised self-declared state" means?

Come on guys!!! this is not rocket science!! This not difficult to understand.... And stop thinking as we were in times before the war world II! The world does not work like that anymore. Case1 So you said the company has the right to defend their stuff? Really? what law protect them if they company is in a country who dint sign the treaty? Anybody can destroy all their equipment if they want.. defend that will cost much more than the profits it can get from it. And in earth the things will not be easy for this company either.. the same for the country that shelters this company... so what you earn with all that? What is the problem that other company install in the same asteroid mining? Meanwhile does not put in risk your equipment? If you have some problem in some machinary, you can sent repairs in launchers from the other company if they have extra place.. without the need to launch your own emergency backup. Case2 There is a huge difference.. this treaty does not prohibits celestial body mining, but you cant claim property of celestial bodies. The other difference that you will not catch the same whale that other company is catching.. The international whaling commision had a limit of catch, only in recent years they reduce that and now its only for "scientific purpose"... Japan was on court due this last year and they lose. The thing is that is hard to monitor each boat to see if they are hunting or not. Case3 This is not recognized and does not apply in any court. The same when someone started to sell moon terrains.. The only way why this thing keeps floating, is because nobody gives a ...., and there is nothing of value to steal (in case nobody is on board and located in international waters). So yeah, someone can go and said.. this is my asteroid.. it does not matter, because your claim does not have any basis.

ok think as you want... keep imagine that any guy in an island will be able to screw the plans of all world powers and the rest of the world with total freedom... I am out of this discussion.

You dont understand.. it does not matter if some country dint sign the treaty, that is the world law and they will force to anybody in one way or another to comply it. Or you are saying that a country out of the UN will be able to invade other country from the UN without any consequence? Also if they dont sign the treaty, then anyone can destroy their stuff in space without consequences.

Those who did not sign are not even close to start a space program or space activity. Those countries had other internal problems to be worry about first, instead go to a reunion to talk and discuss things that are far of their concern. But if in some point they are interested in space activity, then they will be forced to signed or pay other kind of consequences.. We are talking about the 97% of the world including the most powerfull countries, you will not find other law with such international support like this one. They will need to develope their own space launcher before.. because nobody will carry nothing about that country to the space until they dont sign.. The treaty will be in constant change adding or solving things that was not mention before. The only pressure that corporations might do, is put some pressure to encourage space exploration which might be good for any country in the world. To encourage that as I mention, it will be the case of waste a lot of resources and energy in capturing an asteroid and keeping it close to the earth. So it will be fair if some laws will provide certain benefics to defend those resources waste. But I guess ownership or property will never be accept it. That is the new way to deal with things in the future, and it will be more efficient for all companies or countries involve. There is nothing efficient in own stuffs anymore.

These laws: http://www.unoosa.org/pdf/publications/STSPACE11E.pdf Call your lawyer, see you in court.