Logan.Darklighter

Awesome new stuff Bro! And I am impressed that your current set of missions is maintaining continuity with previous missions through characters and situations. That's tough to do across multiple game upgrade versions! I often just start over completely every couple of game upgrades. Much respect and rep for you, sir!

Devo's in the midst of a major house move. So no - hasn't been released. But it I think he had all or most of the modeling work done. It's supposed to be one of the least complex/low part count mods he's done. So I think once he's got his computer and all set back up again with internet access etc he'll likely be able to complete it fairly soon therafter.

NO! SLEEP! TILL BROOK-- I MEAN LAYTHE!!!

Ahh that takes me back. I've SEEN that sky a couple of times in my life. Once at the edge of the Grand Canyon. The other somewhere in New Mexico a few miles off of I-40 behind a row of hills blocking even the occasional headlamp from the highway. The time at the Grand Canyon was the most memorable. We were there doing the usual touristy thing. And I remember seeing that sky at night looking up as we were setting up the camper and I think I wanted to go to the rim of the canyon to see it. By sheer happenstance, there was a group there called "The San Francisco Street Astonomers Club" and they had actually set up reflector telescopes there at the little parking area on the rim. While I was waiting my turn to see the Galilean moons of Jupiter and the rings of Saturn, I could literally see satellites going by overhead in orbit. NOT airplanes! I knew what those looked like and this was completely different! Lovely lovely sky ballet against the Milky Way. There on the high plateau in the clearest air imaginable next to the deepest crevasse on the continent. It was an amazing night.

Back on topic: I inquired over on the MechJeb thread about the issue with the "POGO" effect when trying to use KEEPVERT with VTOL flight as I've done in the past with the Eagle. Sarbian said: Also - in response to further query by me trying to clear up why this was changed: O... kay? I'm still not sure why it worked before yet there's a problem now. But between asking questions and testing, I've come up with some flight observations and at least one work-around for other Eagle Pilots. So listen up, here's the scoop: In-line thrust is not affected by the POGO oscillations. Any craft that is the classic "stand on its tail" and thrust flies and hovers with MechJeb's Translatron KEEPVERT function just fine. However: In-line thrust can be re-defined by a part where you can click on "control from here". Such as another cockpit, a probe, or a docking port. I always put a Jr. Sized docking port on top of the truss of my Eagles, just in case. In the past I haven't had to use it to hover. But now it's going to be necessary to use it if I want to fly with the automatic throttle control that I have used in the past. Most of the time I can fly it manually no problem. But those delicate "trick" manuevers you've seen me do, like flying through the tunnel on the KSP complex or flying the Eagle into the back of a carrier? That's been made more difficult with this change. Not impossible. But more challenging. Requires more set-up to do and changing from horizontal to vertical automatic thrust control is a bit tricky. It has to be done QUICKLY otherwise you'll flip out of control. Be very careful about how you place a docking port on top of the truss. Otherwise you'll wind up with controls reversed and make it harder on yourself to manuever. Here's an odd thing - but possibly good under the right circumstances: If you have both the VTOL and the Main rear engines on at the same time and turn on KEEPVERT? No POGO effect at all. But as soon as you turn off the main engine, the POGO returns. One bit of solidly good news: latest update of MechJeb definitely is a LOT more precise in keeping a ship on exactly the right heading with no wobble. It works with the RCS thrusters with much more "Snap" and holds an Eagle (and any other ship) very solidly on course. And it now has a "Smooth Throttle" option which increases and decreases the throttle gradually instead of just SLAMMING it to maximum everytime MechJeb fires the engines. Between those two new features, flying the Eagle in "semi-manual" mode by means of the SURF or Kill Rotation modes just got a lot easier. Also updated for .23 is Kerbal Joint Reinforcement. I can't recommend this mod highly enough. It really helps damp out any remaining wobbliness in the Eagle's parts and makes it very solid. It also has done a lot to damp out the "landing gear bug" though it's not gone completely. Further testing I'm about to do: Going to see if MechJeb's autoland feature will work with the Eagle if it's controlling it through a docking port on top of the truss. Also want to test the PX-2 Shuttle with the updated mods and see how that goes. I'll have an updated report in about an hour or two. EDIT: Wow. So yeah. Automated landing with MechJeb on the Eagle via a top-mounted truss docking port? It works. It's a HEART STOPPER, but it works! If you've seen a couple of my videos, you know I like to actually fly the Eagle in to land more or less under constant throttle and a gentle angle of approach. Even if I'm coming in vertically, I'll still do so usually under a low throttle setting just to keep the speed manageable. A MechJeb landing from orbit is... intense. Aerobraking and then dropping in vertically on the KSC complex and ONLY firing the VTOL engines at what seems like the last possible moment in a suicide burn! Yeesh! No doubt that's more fuel efficient than my method. But it's not so easy on the nerves! LOL As for the PX-2 shuttle, the new MechJeb mods don't do as much for it, though I THINK they're helping a little. I've tested with varying reaction wheels and I think the PX-2 needs a total of about 40 (which can be split between the cockpit pod and the ASAS) for best results.

I believe it's possible with the new tweakables to have the option of open/close from the start. As for attaching things to ramps. That's not possible with any mod, anywhere. You can't attach things to moving parts. Or if you do, when they move, the attachment points won't move with them. The idea with the part is to attach things inside on the walls away from the sliding section. For example - A rover or small orbital tug. In the example of the tug, you'd achieve orbit, open the bay, then undock the tug and nudge it out with RCS. Or if this is meant to hold a rover, you land the ship, open up the cargo area and release the rover from a docking clamp for use. You can then drive the rover free of the ship.

I've done some testing today and the POGO doesn't happen with in-line thrust as you say. Thus a standard Apollo LEM style lander will work fine with the KEEPVERT. I am not sure I understand the reason for providing less or 0 thrust at perpendicular angles. Unless - I am guessing - you have plans to separate the two throttle components? So that one or the other set of engines can have it's own set of throttle controls? It would be nice, for example, to be able to set altitude with the VTOL engines and then be able to throttle up/down with the rear engine on the Eagle for flying around. I can foresee any number of applications for that outside of that example. But if my guess above is not correct, then what's the need for the perpendicular alignment change, since it was working fine for most purposes before .23?

I'm having an issue with MechJeb's KEEPVERT. I use this thing a lot with the Wayland Eagle (and other landers - especially when I'm hovering trying to find a landing spot). And in past releases this has been the perfect VTOL control. In the past when setting up the KEEPVERT. If I input "0" it would just hold altitude with a constant thrust. And with the Eagle, I'd land the ship by means of setting the KEEPVERT to a -1 or -0.5 in the last dozen meters of descent or so. But with .23 and the latest release, that's changed. I'm now getting what I refer to as a severe "POGO" effect (in reference to a problem that occured in the Saturn V boosters that caused problems more than once. On one Apollo mission POGO vibrations shut off the center engine of the 2nd stage, but they were able to make orbit on the remaining 4 engines.) MechJeb's KEEPVERT doesn't seem to be able to find the "sweet spot" anymore and the throttle oscillates wildly bouncing the ship up and down almost like an ORION Nuclear pulse engine. Looks like it's damn near shaking the ship apart. Here's a Twitch Video I made showing off Mechjeb and the KEEPVERT at arguably their best back in .22. And here's a new video I just put up tonight illustrating the new "POGO" Problem. Does anyone have any solution? Or is this just a known issue that still needs work?

(Scotty accent) "Aye! A lovely pair o' nacelles on that yon lassy!"

Uhm... Should I tell him? Or should I perhaps hint that he should read the rest of the thread? Oh wait...

KLONG!!! * *Sound of jaw hitting deck percussively.

Also consider - so many ships (especially in early career mode) depend on Solar power to recharge their batteries. You can time warp your way to dawn. But - what if you're using a life support mod and you have a limited amount of time before life support or power (or both) run out. Uh oh! And even ships that have fission chargers for the batteries will often augment with solar panels. So yeah. Usually worth it just to wait. But sometimes you just can't choose your moment. Say you're using the limited life support mods? And you have to perform a rescue on a downed ship before their life support runs out? And you get there and it's on the dark side and they'll be dead before the sun comes back around? Well then you don't have a choice. You gotta land in the dark. Another thing to consider: There's at least one anomaly I can think of (maybe more) where it's ALWAYS dark to go down there to find! And the angle of the sun in the sky will be irrelevant. And heck - sometimes you might just want to challenge yourself. So hope these tips help out.

Ahh ok. I've never downloaded the main IR mod myself. Didn't know.

If you feel you MUST land in an area at night - 1) It's always good to have lights on the lander, even if you don't think you'll need them. Cause that ONE TIME when you do... 2) What the others have said in regards to the IVA view of the Radar Altimeter: VERY TRUE. The Radar Altimeter won't "see" the ground until it's 3000 meters underneath you. But that's invaluable. Have a Kerbal inside the cockpit turn his head so that you've got a good view of the RAD ALT, then when you think you're getting close, switch to IVA and check it. If it's a night landing, you can pretty much stay in IVA mode until you're at about 150 Meters up. At that point switch and come back out to the outside view, and your lights on the lander should just be picking up the ground at about that time. One of my procedures for night landings is to expect to land at a higher altitude than the plot shows. try and come to a near stop and hover right about where you think you're going to start picking up the radar at 3000 meters. Check and then start final descent once you have "acquired" the ground via the RAD ALT. From there it should be relatively simple to land a stock craft with just the RAD ALT and a set of landing lights.

Is he? I thought he was referring to the main Infernal Robotics mod. Doesn't that have parts(models) in it?

Oh very nice! Liking the look of that a lot. It's just a touch more "Kerbal" style than even the PX-2. I could even see the possibility of being able to mix and match parts of this craft with B9 or LLL for some interesting ships.

Good job on the engine pods, there, Devo. Comparing with the source material it's a close match! EDIT: Oh yeah. Devo? Saw this and thought of you:

New discovery about the PX Shuttle parts: The PX 2 Carrier Command Bay - that's the central cargo pod with the Ventral TB2 style lift that's actually got command pod function and is in the Command pod section. It shares its model with the PX-2 Cargo Bay Mk 3 that's in "fuel and engines" section. Well it's not the same scale as the rest of the parts. It's significantly bigger. HOWEVER. May I ask that instead of resizing that part, that you consider - just consider! - Making duplicates of all the other shuttle parts at the larger scale for a PX-2 Mark 5 Super-Sized shuttle? Cause this, my friend - this has... possibilities written all over it! Devo - if you didn't plan that perfect fit of the Eagle on the platform of that large cargo pod - you should have!

Okay. That's interesting. The idea you gave me was that maybe the interaction with the hatch might be due to it being close to the back end of the model and thus close to the colliders with whatever might be attached there. But no, it's just the model itself. I had just the cockpit pod, on the runway. No other parts. And I got the same or similar behavior. The interesting part is that there's like this "auto-grab" force that yanks the kerbal into the model once the helmet intersects just a small amount. Better than half the time it then spits him out the BACK of the pod at like a 90 degree turn.

Were you just testing the cockpit by itself? without the rest of the ship? Cause I was testing it with the whole ship. That just gave me an idea. BRB...

Can't speak directly for Devo. But I think the idea is that the PX Shuttle Devo's currently kicking the bugs out of - and the dropship from Aliens that also needs working on - are kinda the thing you're looking for in terms of what would do similar jobs. You might have (understandably) missed it due to the length of the Wayland thread, but Devo's previously expressed a lack of interest in "re-inventing the wheel" when it comes to ships doing very similar jobs. The pelican essentially does the same job as the Colonial Marines dropship. And the dropship is STILL needing a lot of bug-fixing on the basic model and flight dynamics as well as some fixing that's become necessary to update it after a couple of game updates from Squad have broken what was already done. It's a complex, twitchy bird that's made more complex by the fact that you're trying to get a specific end-result in terms of performance - what you see it do in the movie - out of it when you're dealing with a (relatively) realistic set of physics in KSP. (By comparison, the Space 1999 Eagle was EASY. And it's STILL taken almost a year to get it right!) Not to say it wouldn't ever be done. After all the work and lessons learned on the various other projects, I wouldn't be surprised if Devo or someone else eventually took on the task. But I wouldn't expect it to be anytime soon. Devo's main project after all the bug fixes and updates of the current stuff is the Serenity from Firefly. And THAT's going to be interesting in terms of just getting the model right! (All those reflective surfaces!)

Okay - first commentary - - I very much like the lights in the cockpit. I don't think they are too bright. They're just fine. - Not hugely important, but something I just now noticed: None of the 3 Kerbals are sitting exactly in the seats. They seem to be sitting in the air at about the level of the armrests. Not important unless you feel OCD about that sort of thing. - Confirmed exit and re-boarding of Kerbals can go smoothly. The camera whip-around doesn't really bug me. That seems to happen on ALL ships, not just yours. - however - there is still something a little odd. There's no "Grab" function with the hatch. There's only (F) to Board. I had the shuttle sitting flat on the ground with the gear up flush so Jeb and crew could simply walk up to the hatch. When they walked into it, there was the (F) Board function pop up. But if they continued to walk into it as I did trying to find the (F) Grab? Then they intersect with the hull and get stuck like before. A little wiggling pops them loose no problem seems like. But I've seen that actually BREAK the ship before. So it could be dangerous to the ship if a Kerbal gets stuck there. EDIT: Ugh... also happens with ladders. I placed one just underneath the hatch. Had Bob go on EVA. He fell to the ground. Got up. Climbed the ladder to the hatch and then got stuck. Propelled up into the nosecone in fact. EDIT EDIT: Hmm. Might be where you place the ladder. I placed it the second time on more of an angle flush with the hull and seemed to be fine.

Ooh. Just checked back in and seeing a new cockpit is up. Downloading to test now.

DAMNIT!! I need a craftfile! NOW!!! Seriously - this is awesome.

Awesome! Great spaceplane you've got there! Also - need to figure out a way to get some HAL 9000 style dialogue in there. "I'm sorry Nelemy. I'm afraid I can't do that." Ever seen Darkstar?