Logan.Darklighter

Speaking of which - Devo are you out there?

I think he's talking about Devo's Wayland site. Something's happened to it.

Nertea, just thought I'd let you know - those VTOL engines helped me complete Thunderbird 1. My version of Thunderbird 1, despite being an excellent SSTO, had some nagging problems. like the inability to land properly without exploding even WITH the "extendo-gear".(I use IR Robotics pistons to extend a set of Adjustable landing gear so that they clear the engines and fins in the back). That landing problem... Damn... just not working. I had to land at high speeds because of the aerodynamics and no matter how gently I angled in for landing, no matter that I tried to use B9 Airbrakes to slow me down quickly, once the gear touched down, the plane wobbled and tipped over to crash. It was stable getting OFF the runway taking off, but it was looking like I'd only ever be able to land vertically on the tail. Until I decided to try the VTOL aspect again. I'd given it up as a lost cause early on. But I decided to take another look at it. The Mk 4 Yellowjacket engines seemed like the most likely solution. I decided to add those in and see if I could imitate the original TB-1's horizontal VTOL capability. Not... quite. But GOOD ENOUGH! My TB-1 cannot lift off vertically with a full fuel load. But like the British Harrier jump jet - once about half the fuel is depleted... it DOES lift! Not only that, but between the RCS, airbrakes and the VTOL engines, I can FINALLY land this thing properly in both modes! By the time TB-1 comes back from orbit or a long flight, it'll be light enough to the point where the VTOLs can work beautifully to set down light as a feather! BTW - I was already using the big MK 4 Intakes on this design. They still rock. So now I'm DONE. This thing is COMPLETED now. And ready for posting for you guys to play with! Have fun! THUNDERBIRD 1Craft File

That is precisely what I did. I used [imgur] tags. That is the result. I've NEVER been able to get it to work right.

Thunderbirds are Go! I created a version of TB-1 from the classic Gerry Anderson series. Looks great in flight, but there were some problems. The arrangement of the rear engines and fins had me stumped for a long time in regards to landing gear. She could launch and land on her tail just fine. But TB-1 in the series is supposed to be able to fly and land horizontally as well, in addition to being a VTOL. Well with a little help from Infernal Robotics, I figured out a way to telescope the gear down far enough to work properly! Next was figuring out a way to get Kerbals from the ship down to the ground and back up again. The telescoping landing gear became another problem to overcome, since no ladders would reach far enough! But either I'm a genius or I was channeling the ghost of Gerry Anderson. Because I came up with a solution to the ingress/egress problem that's practical, works, and yet has just the right amount of "Rube Goldberg" that you'd expect from Thunderbirds. I'm so proud! The album below shows the methods I used. Also shows a vertical take-off. TB-1 is a proper SSTO and with the right ascent profile can reach orbit with nearly half a tank of fuel remaining. The only thing she can't do yet is horizontal VTOL. But I'm working on it!

Nertea - I have a request: On the Mk IV cockpit - is it possible to have a version of the cockpit that does not have the airscoops on the sides? I love the TB-2 nature of the cockpit and all. No question. But it'd be nice to have the option for some designs to have the more "clean" smooth-sided look of the original Mk 4 Cockpit. If you want to save on part count, you could maybe code it the way that B9 does and have it be toggle-able in the SPH. Just a thought.

Oh is THAT what I needed to do? And... Oi... So THAT'S what "AG Mimic" means... *FACEPALM* Okay yeah. Let me test that.

Almost but not quite correct. The order is slightly off. And you leave the winches attached during transport and only undock/release them when you're ready to disembark the rover. Here's a simpler checklist to follow: 1) Attach Radial Attachment Points (what the winch cable attaches to) to the vehicle. (minimum of 4 to cover the 4 corners) 2) Plug in the winch heads to the RAPs. ATTACH AS "UNDOCKED". NOT "DOCKED". 3) Winch the rover up into place. Hopefully the end result raises the rover's wheels completely off the cargo bay floor so they're not touching/intersecting. 4) Place Strut points. Then link Struts. 5) Choose one winch point and switch it from UNDOCKED to DOCKED. (Refer to step 2 above). For disembarkation of the rover, the checklist is generally reversed: 1) Change your designated winch head from DOCKED to UNDOCKED. Now the rover is a separate craft again and when released, will not fall through the cargo bay floor. 2) Un-link the struts. Stow them in the KAS Storage box (you DID include 1 or 2 of those in the plane, right?) 3) Lower the rover to the cargo bay floor by extending the winches (DON'T just "release" them! A heavy rover might still cause damage to itself (usually breaking the wheels) or could bounce and damage some other part of itself or the plane.) 4) Unplug the winch heads from the Radial Attachment points. 5) Then un-attach the radial attachment heads from the rover and stow them. With the rover resting on it's own wheels in the cargo bay and hopefully nothing obstructing it (like a Radial Attachment head getting hung up on the side or the door) you can now carefully drive it down the ramp and off the plane. Notes: - You do NOT release the winches once retracted upwards. Leave them attached until you get to your destination. - If, when your rover is winched upwards, you see the attachment points begin to pull away from the vehicle, then that means they're being overstressed by the weight of the vehicle and you need to use more winches to lift it. Use as many as you need. I've used as many as 12 with 6 to a side. - The KAS Struts are not as robust as regular struts. They have more "stretch" to them. That's why you want to keep all the winches attached. The struts by themselves will NOT hold a vehicle in place against some of the maneuvers that an SSTO (or any cargo plane) will need to do. Neither will the winches. But the combination of the two is golden. - Mk 4 Cargo bay sections are lovely for KAS winches because of the "Ledge" running along both sides above the walls of the cargo bay but before the top doors. It's the perfect spot to put the winches - up high and with the maximum possible distance to pull a cargo upwards. - Related to the above point - I recommend you place the KAS Radial Attachment Heads as LOW on the Rover as you can, but keep them all LEVEL with each other as much as possible. - Also - with multiple winches - it's incredibly useful to have these 2 KAS Winch functions on their own Action Groups: Extend and Retract. And double and triple-check if necessary to make sure that all the winches and their up and down movement are properly on those 2 action groups. One button push to retract ALL the winches on a vehicle is SO much easier than doing it piecemeal one by one! (An alternate 3rd action group would be "Disable Key Command" on the KAS winches. Some of us use non-standard keyboard layouts that use the same keys as KAS in places. Really handy to have that and to NOT have the winches extending/retracting when I'm trying to maneuver the damn plane!!)

This. Definitely this. Agreed. This is a cool mod - and it will get better.

The trick I've found is this: You want multiple winches. Ultimately I wound up putting 12 winches into the cargo bay for really heavy loads. Get a Kerbal out into the cargo bay and attach Radial Attachment Points around the vehicle. IMPORTANT NOTE: When you attach the winch heads to the RAPs, do NOT attach them in "Docked" Mode. Leave them UNDOCKED so that the vehicle remains it's own vehicle and not "docked" to the carrying ship. Retract the winches - if you've done it right, you can winch the rover/vehicle completely off of the cargo bay floor so that the wheels aren't even touching it. (I often get enough headroom to walk Kerbals underneath the winched vehicle. Attach struts. I recommend 4 struts fore and aft, 2 above and 2 below. Then and ONLY then choose one of the winches (right click), bring up the GUI, and change the status of the secured vehicle to "Docked" mode. Using this method, it doesn't matter what part set you're using, Mk 4, Mk 3, Mk 2, whatever. It will stay put and won't fall through the floor. Hope that helps!

What he said! Up in the top right-hand corner! Aiieeee!

Eagle 1 and Eagle 2 flying in formation up to orbit. Caveat: Apparently craft with VTOL engines can work with this mod. But you have to be careful. The mod does not switch engines on and off. So either all of them have to be running - as in these shots - or only one set of engines - VTOL or main thrusters - can be running. Once I established apoapsis and had enough time to switch back and forth between the ships to turn off the VTOL thrusters and make sure the main engines were still engaged, then set up the mod with the leader/follower tags again, orbital maneuvering would work just fine. But my normal method of getting up past the first atmosphere band, then turning off VTOLs and leaving main engines on and pitching the Eagle up into a more normal rocket-like ascent angle wouldn't work with two Eagles where I didn't have the time to switch back and forth like I just described. So I had to leave the VTOLs on. It's certainly not fuel efficient for getting to orbit, but it did give me some fantastic screenshots! Almost looks like the original effects shots from Space 1999!

For anyone who is interested in using it, I've made some revisions to my Thunderbird design. Here's the Mediafire Link Thunderbird Craft Files The changes include: - More control authority in the form of larger (B9) canards at the front of the ship. Should help get the nose up faster and keep it there, particularly with heavy loads. - Angled the rear "Roll-bar" tail elements instead of being straight vertical. This both evokes more of the classic TB-2 feel, and on a practical level, allowed me to fit an extra intake scoop up there (for a total of 5). - Landing gear was made more robust in the form of an extra pair of gear that fold out from and support the engine pods. Also the landing gear as a whole was raised up slightly for better clearance. Overall there should be much less chance of damaging or ripping away parts of the plane on even a relatively heavy landing in wilderness conditions away from a runway. The gear uses the "Procedural Landing Gear" mod. - B9 Heavy Airbrakes have been added for more control and stopping quickly on landing. I've included 3 different versions of the Thunderbird. Externally they are all the same, and use mainly Mk 4 and stock parts, with some B9 parts added and also using the Procedural adjustable landing gear. All three versions also use Mechjeb. Though it's more than possible to fly the craft manually. Where they differ is mainly in the cargo bay area. The "Stock" Thunderbird has no KAS parts and no LLL parts. That minimizes the number of mods necessary to use the plane. This is for people who don't want to use KAS or LLL. I only used 2 LLL parts in any case, hardly cause for you to download the entire mod set and then try and figure out which parts I used to delete them etc. - Also - maybe you do have KAS for example, but you just want to set it up your own way. The next variant is the "Stock KAS" version. It still uses no LLL parts, but has the KAS winch system and storage boxes set up. The last version is the Thunderbird set up the way I use it. All the custom bits added. One thing I do recommend - and it's the reason I have the LLL Hatch door on my custom version - is some way to move Kerbals straight from the cockpit back to the cargo bay without having to get out and walk (or EVA) to do so. This is particularly useful when you have very large loads to set up in the bay with the KAS system - it's also one reason why I have 2 KAS storage boxes - one at the forward end of the bay and the other near the back. That's so if a Kerbal can't walk around the sides of a big cargo, then 2 of them can work together and secure the cargo from the front and rear ends with the KAS struts etc. I have a B9 "Info Drive" installed that will list the action groups on loading. But here they are if you're interested: 1 - Toggles the 8 Scimitar Engines 2 - Toggles the Scimitars between jet and rocket modes 3 - Open/Close on the top cargo bay doors and turns the bay lights on/off 4 - Open/Close Rear Ramp door and cargo bay lights on/off. 5 - Toggles the nose docking port as well as a set of forward facing lights for docking on the night side of orbit. 6 - On/off on a small light next to the main cockpit hatch 7 - Toggles the 4 Nuclear Engines 8 - Extends all KAS Winch Cables 9 - Retracts all KAS Winch Cables 0 - Disables KAS key control. Disabling Key control is very useful. You don't want to release or extend the cables in-flight! Here's some relevant screens: Here's the no-frills stock cargo bay: And here's the version with the KAS Winches and storage boxes already installed.

Thanks guys! That helps explain things!

Fantastic mod and I've been having a lot of fun with it! This is probably a stupid question. But there are 40+ pages of thread I don't want to sift through to see if someone else has asked this. Does this mod support making locations on bodies other than Kerbin? Mainly I ask because although I love building bases on the Mun, Minmus (and further afield, like Duna and Laythe), after you add more than a few modules, things start to get laggy. It would be nice to be able to have the option to make one or two locations - say maybe just on the Mun or Minmus - into more permanent facilities for launch. The low gravity and vacuum would make launching some more complicated (re: non-aerodynamic) ships a somewhat less involved process.

I like that concept for the Mk 2 (is anyone working on that seriously?) But I don't see it happening for the Mk 4. There's already an aft-loading cargo ramp. And then there's the side bulges along the fueslage parts to contend with.

Oh my YES. I don't have a full B9 installation (too much memory) but one of the specific parts I made sure I DID have was the airbrakes! And I just made a mental note after my last flight in the Thunderbird that I really needed to add that to the design!

Good news! I can confirm that the collision on the cargo bay floors is fixed! Stuff no longer falls through! I was able to transport this huge fuel truck over to Jeb's island, lower it from the KAS winches, and drive it right off the back cargo ramp, no muss no fuss. (Except for a wee bug I encountered that had me absolutely gobsmacked. Thank goodness I kept making quicksaves!) But here's the end result: (Incidentally, I'm still making tweaks to the Thunderbird. Latest version has more landing gear supporting the engine modules and making sure that they don't smack the ground on landing. Also the landing gear as a whole was tweaked to have the plane sit a little higher off the ground in general. Internally there are now 8 KAS winches on either side of the bay which finally provides enough tension to completely raise that big truck in the picture off the cargo bay floor with high enough clearance to actually allow a Kerbal to walk underneath! And it's filled with fuel and HEAVY! I'll update the Thunderbird craft file at my dropbox and provide a link when I'm sure I've got the bugs worked out.)

Uhm... Guys? I think I may have stumbled across a glitch that... well... The levels of Whiskey Tango Foxtrot are worthy of Danny2462!!! No seriously - it's time to break out the Kevin MacLeod music for this one... So I was testing the capabilities of my SSTO cargo hauler, Thunderbird. Mainly I was testing KAS struts, winches, and procedures for hooking up, securing, transporting, landing, then undoing all the struts, letting the winches down, and driving the vehicle out of the bay. Got everything set up and secured, transported the big fuel carrier in the cargo bay over to Jebs Island (I'm using Kerbinside) landed on the green to test wilderness landing. Everything going well until the last part - driving the fuel truck out of the bay. That's where I hit a snag. Literally. I forgot to take the KAS attachment points off the side of the truck and it got hung up on them, broke all the tires and flipped onto it's back just aft of the ramp. Bugger. Okay - I say - no problem. That's what F5 and F9 and quicksaving are for. And then THIS happened as soon as the game loaded again... That is not what you might immediately think it is. That is NOT the truck "jumping" out of the bay to fall back a moment later in fiery explosions. Oh no.... it gets WEIRD... (have you cued up that music link above yet? You should...) (Pay close attention to the mission time clock in these shots) Wat... WAT... WHAT? WHAT??? SERIOUSLY??? WHAT THE EVER-BLEEPING-BLEEPITY-BLEEP?!?!? I can't even... GO HOME PHYSICS!!! YOU'RE DRUNK!!!

What is... I don't even...

Really all you have to do to help with the fuel usage is change those aerospikes to standard jets. One thing you might consider, if you want to do it with part-clipping, is clip the aerospikes (or some other small aperture rocket motor) inside your VTOL jets. That way if the spool-up time on the VTOL jets is causing you problems such as - you can't correct the downward speed fast enough without over-compensating and shooting back up into the air - Then have your rocket augments on their own action group key and flip them on and off as needed to help arrest your downward speed. That way you get the best of both worlds for your VTOL operations - fuel efficiency and on-demand throttle precision.

BTW Nertea - this isn't directly related to your parts, but I thought I'd post these to show what else you've inspired me to design and fly. TB-1 is go! F.A.B.!

Speaking of securing things solidly inside the hold for transport. I finally figured out a KAS Rig that will allow me to drive even large vehicles up the back ramp into the cargo area of my Thunderbird SSTO Transport and secure them in place solidly enough for transport. Here in these pics you see a big fuel truck made of mostly Lackluster Labs parts pretty much filling the entire bay. It's tensioned into place by the 4 winches on the side of the bay (and THANK YOU NERTEA for making an angled section up there between the vertical walls and the upper doors as a handy place to put stuff like that!!!!). Then once that's done, I had a Kerbal grab the struts from the KAS Box and set up the links. (And let me tell you, THAT WAS A PAIN IN THE A**!!! My next revision of the plane will put a second KAS box along one side at the REAR of the Cargo bay so I can use TWO Kerbals to do this instead of SQUEEZING a single one past the sides of that damn truck! Barely enough room! I think that part of the operation took an HOUR.) But once it's all done, it's locked down securely enough for flight. I've tested this - it works! The rover doesn't fall through the floor! I was able to deliver that fuel truck to another continent and land... And... that's where the next revision of the Thunderbird will be. I found out it's NOT good at wilderness landings. I knocked off all the bottom engines on landing. Kerbals and cargo were safe though! Just need to add some more robust landing gear. And airbrakes. To the drawing board!

Do you mean it flips out when trying to land with the big orange fuel tank in the hold?

So many rocket launches, so many trips to space. But sometimes you miss the sights closer to home if you don't go exploring... Like up the Northern river canyon AT AN AVERAGE OF 30 METERS ABOVE THE WATER at over 450 MPH!!! YEEAAAAAAHHHH!!!! (Cue "Driving with the Top Down" from the Iron Man Soundtrack. )