Organics found on mars!!!

[Technical Ben]

I don't think the general public will accept it until they see a microscopic image of an organism. Either intact or fossilized.

Water does not equal life. That's like saying green men live on Venus, just below the clouds, because clouds and land are vital and a part of humans existence, they "must be" on Venus too...

[Brotoro]

Organic molecules are building blocks of the life. When you find a bunch of bricks on the ground, usually it's a good indicator a building is somewhere nearby. Or was in the past.

It's clearer to say it the other way around: "The building blocks of life are organic molecules."

But not all organic molecules are used by life. It's just that life (as we know it) uses a particular subset of organic molecules.

But finding an organic molecule is not equivalent to finding life.

The heading of this post should have the tag [Chemistry] instead of [biology].

[Robotengineer]

Could Mars' deuterated 'heavy' water affected the potential for life there?

[Brotoro]

Could Mars' deuterated 'heavy' water affected the potential for life there?

No. Even if it has a fraction of deuterium that is several times greater than Earth's, the deuterium still makes up a very small fraction of the total.

Also, it is suggested that Mars may have had a similar deuterium ratio to Earth's billions of years ago (back when it would most likely have had life), and its greater deuterium ratio now results from having lost a lot of its hydrogen to space (preferentially losing the lighter hydrogen).

[PB666]

Off topic: That was scary! I clicked on the thread when it was in The Space Lounge, and then it got moved Freaky!

On-topic: I think it's an interesting thing. It means that they can either form there, or can be made there, or came from somewhere else.... Which means it's interesting to say the least.

I know, scarey, I did not know there was life in the Space Lounge.

Their instrument is degassing a compound, this fatty acid is likely a product. If the fatty acid is actually Martian, I should point out that long chain fatty acids without some sort of 'zyme' are unlikely. Past experience tells me that this is likely a contamination, not martian derived.

Fatty acids are important because they are an essential element of the membrane, what is means is that its hard to seal of 'proprietory' processes without a membrane. If this proves to be Martian in origin it likely means that the step between milieu reactions and cellular reactions also took place. Many viruses do not have membranes, but are considered living

[Bill Phil]

I know, scarey, I did not know there was life in the Space Lounge.

Their instrument is degassing a compound, this fatty acid is likely a product. If the fatty acid is actually Martian, I should point out that long chain fatty acids without some sort of 'zyme' are unlikely. Past experience tells me that this is likely a contamination, not martian derived.

Fatty acids are important because they are an essential element of the membrane, what is means is that its hard to seal of 'proprietory' processes without a membrane. If this proves to be Martian in origin it likely means that the step between milieu reactions and cellular reactions also took place. Many viruses do not have membranes, but are considered living

Fatty acid tails are important to lipids, and the cell membrane is primarily composed of a phosholipid bilayer.

If it is in fact contamination, then we have already screwed up. I see no prolblem contamination wise of sending humans if our own probes are contaminating the place...

[KerikBalm]

Fatty acids are important because they are an essential element of the membrane,

Where did you see anything about them detecting fatty acids?

Many viruses do not have membranes, but are considered living

I would say most, and the general consensus is that they are not alive.

[lajoswinkler]

Many viruses do not have membranes, but are considered living

Viruses are not considered to be living. There are viral species but they are not alive. Outside of the cell they're not doing anything (some can be crystalized) and in the cell their genome merges with cell's DNA and creates copies of viruses which, when abundant enough, indirectly cause cellular breakdown just like when you stuff too many cats in a box it breaks apart.

There is no metabolism involved, no directional movement, no reaction to stimuli, no communication, no exchange of hereditary material.

[Bill Phil]

Viruses are not considered to be living. There are viral species but they are not alive. Outside of the cell they're not doing anything (some can be crystalized) and in the cell their genome merges with cell's DNA and creates copies of viruses which, when abundant enough, indirectly cause cellular breakdown just like when you stuff too many cats in a box it breaks apart.

There is no metabolism involved, no directional movement, no reaction to stimuli, no communication, no exchange of hereditary material.

Except for when they take over a cell...

[lajoswinkler]

Well I did mention that. That's how they work, but it's nowhere near any planned approach, which would be extended true parasitism. Living on the expense of your host and not contributing to its health, but instead poisoning it, although not killing it because you need it to live.

Viruses passively attach to the cell membrane, deposit their genome into the cell, cell takes the genome and starts producing the viral components until it's exhausted and breaks apart. It's not like they "take over". Taking things over considers all of the things.

If you enter a car factory and you use one of the tracks to produce people with hammers who destroy the factory soon after, you haven't really took over the production.

[Ikaneko]

I'm sorry, guys, but if this is going to be the revolutionary event that proves the existence of past life on Mars, I need to do this.

I just need to.

First.

God-damnit. You didn't get the first anyway. Your momentous occasion trolling failed.

[Bill Phil]

Well I did mention that. That's how they work, but it's nowhere near any planned approach, which would be extended true parasitism. Living on the expense of your host and not contributing to its health, but instead poisoning it, although not killing it because you need it to live.

Viruses passively attach to the cell membrane, deposit their genome into the cell, cell takes the genome and starts producing the viral components until it's exhausted and breaks apart. It's not like they "take over". Taking things over considers all of the things.

If you enter a car factory and you use one of the tracks to produce people with hammers who destroy the factory soon after, you haven't really took over the production.

It's preventing the cell from doing what it should be doing. Thus taking over it's production capability. Using it's metabolism, using it's life functions, etc. All to make viruses. And viruses are pretty much capsules for genetic material...

[LABHOUSE]

Organics are what is in all life, not all organics were or are part of an organism.

Just because there are organics does not mean it will become living one day.

[Cirocco]

Oh man... While this is great news, I can't help but grit my teeth at the fact that we're constantly finding stuff that alludes to the *possibility* of microbiological life -past or present- but never any conclusive proof. I love these new discoveries, don't get me wrong, I LOVE that NASA is finding this stuff all the time and I have the utmost respect for all the scientists and engineers who work tirelessly on these experiments.

But I really wish that one of these days, we'd get one experiment where they go "weeeeeellll... This could be from another source than life (the possibility is always there, no matter how small) but really, this is more than likely life."

ah well, keep on dreaming, hoping and waiting I guess...

[Technical Ben]

Viruses are not considered to be living. There are viral species but they are not alive. Outside of the cell they're not doing anything (some can be crystalized) and in the cell their genome merges with cell's DNA and creates copies of viruses which, when abundant enough, indirectly cause cellular breakdown just like when you stuff too many cats in a box it breaks apart.

There is no metabolism involved, no directional movement, no reaction to stimuli, no communication, no exchange of hereditary material.

What did you do with what cats?

[daniel l.]

IT GETS BETTER!!!!!

http://www.space.com/28899-mars-life-nitrogen-carbon-monoxide.html

[KerikBalm]

in the cell their genome merges with cell's DNA

most don't integrate their genomes into the hosts

indirectly cause cellular breakdown just like when you stuff too many cats in a box it breaks apart.

Many directly cause it, including adenovirus (ie the common cold).

Others don't kill the cell at all, and can bud from it without killing it.

There is no metabolism involved

Some virus particles are released while the opposite strand of their genome is still being synthesized, and the synthesis continues after release, and then it becomes metabolically inert, but the packagine does contain some enzymes and there is metabolic activity in the release particle for a short while. Its an odd case, and nowhere near the complexity of the metabolism of a true cell.

no exchange of hereditary material.

What does exchange have to do with it? there is most certainly transmission of hereditary material.

It's not like they "take over". Taking things over considers all of the things.

If you enter a car factory and you use one of the tracks to produce people with hammers who destroy the factory soon after, you haven't really took over the production.

Actually, many of them do:

Step 1: use host transcription factors to make mRNA transcripts for viral transcription factors

Step 2: block the host transcription factor

Step 3: profit

Some viruses take basically complete control and shut down transcription of host genes (many of which result in undesirable antiviral responses that the virus would do well to shut down as fast aas it can).

Others are less intrustive.

IT GETS BETTER!!!!!

http://www.space.com/28899-mars-life-nitrogen-carbon-monoxide.html

Not really... it doesn't relate much to "it" - ie the report of carbon molecules (ie organics) - and microbes can pull N out of the air... at least some can, the nitrogen fixing bacteria can.

I don't think there has ever been much speculation that life on early mars would have been limited by the availability of nitrogen.

Edited March 24, 2015 by KerikBalm

[Technical Ben]

They cannot form or act on their selves. Which is a requirement for "life". Yes, we process food from other animals, and so we could not live apart from our biosphere. However, food source exempt, we can survive anywhere and continue acting/procreating.

Viruses cannot. Thus are not life. We could not for example find Viruses living on Mars in absence of another biosphere. We could though find people living on Mars (providing they took some vegetables with them). We can also find all other forms of "life", such as bacteria etc, should they exist else where.

For example, we could find all the DNA for all it's worth on another planet. It would not though be "alive" in it's own isolation, as it could do nothing but sit there for eternity (in reality it would decay without maintenance, just as a virus dies without a host to replicate it).

It may appear that a virus is as much a part of the living creature it comes from, though a failed/diseased part, as a cancer is. Though a cancer is "alive", it dies when separated from the system that supports and feeds it. A virus is just a simpler form of this error in replication/function.

So we could say a virus is as much "alive" as my arm is. But we don't consider either to be "living things" in their isolation, as they are part of something else, and the "something else" is what makes up the whole of the living thing we consider.

[KerikBalm]

For example, we could find all the DNA for all it's worth on another planet. It would not though be "alive" in it's own isolation, as it could do nothing but sit there for eternity (in reality it would decay without maintenance, just as a virus dies without a host to replicate it).

Bad analogy.

Finding a long DNA molecule would be a pretty good indicator that there was life.

It may appear that a virus is as much a part of the living creature it comes from, though a failed/diseased part, as a cancer is.

Very bad analogy.

Viruses arise from prexisting viruses, cancer's arise de novo when a cell becomes "too selfish" for the good of the "community of cells".

Though a cancer is "alive", it dies when separated from the system that supports and feeds it. A virus is just a simpler form of this error in replication/function.

So we could say a virus is as much "alive" as my arm is. But we don't consider either to be "living things" in their isolation, as they are part of something else, and the "something else" is what makes up the whole of the living thing we consider.

Bad analogy. A arm, or a heart, or whatever, is alive. They are composed of living cells, carrying out complex metabolism.

Not all cancers die, I grow many strains in the lab, and there are cases in wolves and tasmanian devils of transimissible, infectious cancer.

We can say, quite correctly, that this is a case where a cell from a multicellular animal has evolved into a single celled parasite.

They are still just as alive, as any other heterotrophic cell is alive.

[Greenfire32]

Everyone's arguing over what constitutes life and I'm sitting over here like, "I just want Mars to have/had life SO bad!"

[magnemoe]

Bad analogy.

Finding a long DNA molecule would be a pretty good indicator that there was life.

Yes, complicated organic molecules would point towards life, the more complicated who better as many can be created without life (was about to write naturally)

Something like DNA would be a bit overkill, its like finding an city proves intelligent life then an arrowhead would be enough.

[KerikBalm]

And in this analogy, what would you consider to be an arrowhead?

[SargeRho]

Chalk, probably?

[KerikBalm]

how exactly does chalk indicate life?

[SargeRho]

Chalk is made of accumulations of the exoskeletons of coccolithophores - a class of algae with calcite "shells". So, Chalk, Stromatolites, anything of that sort would indicate past or even present life.

Edited March 26, 2015 by SargeRho