Newbish Scanning

[Joonatan1998]

So you're judging a mechanic, and rudely so, that is part of a system that you have never used.

@Joonatan1998 - we do this all the time in the real world. We have rough ideas on what planets were made of before we even visited them, and can make educated guesses based on a very limited set of observable data. And as above, the question stands. Because what I find 'silly' is that folks are condemning something they have not even used.

- - - Updated - - -

Kerbals haven't even seen the mun from the other side, but they can relatively accurately guess where the ore is there?

ok...

Now to test the system, a lot, But I don't expect scanning something trough 200km of rock to become less silly.

I actually like the system, but I don't see how any other part of the system can change the fact that you are scanning through a planet. yes, it makes sense that you know if there are resources or not, and even that you know how much there aproximately are resources, But knowing where the resources are on the neve-before-seen side of the mun...

Maybe the best comparision to the scanning would be Cassini probe and Titan.

When the probe had seen half of the moon, we didn't suddenly know, even approximately, where the lakes in the unscanned area are. (and lakes are a lot more detectable than a certain kind of rock.)

Edited April 29, 2015 by Joonatan1998

[micha]

I -have- used the entire scanning system.

I -still- find the initial top-level scan silly. Sorry, but that's my own personal take on it. I would prefer that first scan to have a SCANsat-like mechanic, it can -stay- a high-level-rough-guestimate, that is completely NOT the point that everybody is (or at least I am) talking about. You're the one that seems to equate SCANsat scan == detailed info. We're absolutely not talking about the detail level of the data, we're purely talking about the actual physical in-game mechanic of HOW to get the data, not WHAT the data is.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion.

It's obvious there's a basic disconnect between how different people want things to work and there's nothing wrong with either approach; it's purely down to personal preference. The mere fact that ISRU has made it into the stock game at all is AWESOME so thank you very much for your contributions, RoverDude It really is a great addition, and this quibble over one part of the mechanics isn't worth getting our knickers in a knot over.

Since it appears to be possible for modders to modify the stock system I'm happy to wait and see what, if anything, the SCANsat author comes up with.

[DoToH]

I have used the scanning system. I have used Kethane for a loong time. I have used ISAmapsat. I have used Scansat.

My first impression was very bad, but when I read RoverDude explanations, I decided to try to use the system without assumptions made from previous experiences.

Now I find it better than every other scanner system. I know insta-scan is not realistic, but I don't care about it any more. Maybe if you stick a big label in the resource screen overlay with the text "DATA IS NOT PRECISE. FURTHER NARROW BAND AND SURFACE SCANS NEEDED" some people will see it less "cheaty".

Don't forget KSP is a game, and we have to accept some realism sacrifices. I'm not saying I wouldn't prefer the first scan to require al lest one full orbit, or to calculate the max coverage based in the actual orbit (resonance matters), but the current implementation is not silly at all. I find it much more elaborated than sticking a bunch of diferent scaners (low res, hi res, biome, etc) to the same probe and sitting (or doing something else) while it scans.

As side note: nobody wants full realism. Don't forget you can't timewarp in RL.

Conclusion:

Thank you RoverDude for the resource system and thank you very much for your comments, explanations and patience.

Edit to add: But PLEASE, lower drill overheat!!

Edited April 29, 2015 by DoToH

[nholzric]

...My first impression was very bad, but when I read RoverDude explanations, I decided to try to use the system without assumptions made from previous experiences.

...

Conclusion:

Thank you RoverDude for the resource system and thank you very much for your comments, explanations and patience.

I read RoverDude's explanation on the other thread also and I'm looking forward to playing with the interplay of the three scanners! RoverDude has been gracious with his comments, explanations, and patience.

The new stock system has put complexity in the types and interactions of the three scanners. At the same time the new system makes the initial scanner "insta-scan" and RoverDude's explanation is that most people will time-warp through scanning a whole planet anyway and he may be right. Most people will time-warp AND the insta-scan doesn't tell you where to drill, it tells you where to scan next.

So it's a trade in game mechanics - a complex interplay of sensors vs a more realistic initial scan. (Of course you could include both, it's not one or the other, but I understand in a game you have to demarcate what's going to be "simulated" and what's going to just happen or be presumed to happen)

Regardless of time-warping or not, I think it would have been better to preserve the orbital mechanics feature of scanning even if it meant a less complicated system of scanners. But then again, I've never designed and built a game let alone such a successful one. There are a lot of people who like the insta-scan, I would guess that my initial speculation that the insta-scan will be upgraded in later releases is wrong. But there are enough people excited for a non-insta-scan that I'm looking forward to someone posting "there's a mod for that" soon.

[little square dot]

RoverDude, please don't mistake my criticism for something it isn't. I appreciate all of your hard work, and for the most part I think you did a bang-up job.

I understand that this is your baby, and it's regrettable that some folks weren't overly tactful with their comments, which clearly upset you, however to be fair, I think you were a tad dismissive of opinions contrary to your own, and probably could been a bit more tactful yourself.

That said, I'm going to have to side with those who strongly dislike the much-maligned instant-scan, as I feel that it's far too unrealistic, which significantly cheapens the experience for me.

Most people who have spoken out in favour of the mechanic have said something to the effect of, “it's merely eliminating a tedious process from the gameâ€Â, or, “what's the difference between instant-scanning and warping for a few seconds to gather the dataâ€Â, but it seems to me the answer is both obvious and in the question.

Having to warp for a few seconds is the difference.

More specifically, the existence of a process that can, but doesn't have to be, warped through is what sets them apart. Those who find it too tedious will warp through the scan, while those who don't won't.

I mean, the same sort of argument could be used to defend the implementation of HyperEdit into the stock game, because what's the point in waiting to get to Jool is you can just press a button and be there. You're going to get there eventually anyway, so why not speed things up a little bit?

The problem of course, is that it cheapens the experience when you can simply jump around the solar system with the click of a button. You haven't done anything to 'earn' that Jool encounter, and you can come back to visit whenever you want at the push of a button, so there's nothing special about it.

I was not a fan of the all seeing eye that mod scanners had, and wanted to do a slow reveal - not in the sense of progressive detail scanning, but in terms of dialing in the resolution, with different technical challenges for each layer.

Fair enough, but what you're a fan of isn't necessarily indicative of what others are fans of, and given the popularity of those mods, presumably a huge number of people do enjoy progressive scanning.

This isn't to say that I think you should have designed your system in line with this or that popular mod, however I don't see your personal dislike of progressive scanning as a reasonable defense against criticisms of the instant-scan mechanic.

ISA MapSat, and then ScanSat, were/are my go-to, absolutely essential mods. I love scanning planets, and I thoroughly enjoy just sitting there watching my probes go about their work. That probably sounds awfully boring to a lot of people, but it sounds pretty great to just as many.

For me, progressive scanning simulates a process by which one 'earns' the data that one is collecting. Much like drilling for ore, gathering science, collecting soil samples, etc., it's an in-game activity that gives many players a sense of purpose/accomplishment. A major criticism of KSP is the lack of things to do, aside from whatever exploratory goals one sets for oneself, so I don't think it's necessary to provide these sorts of shortcuts for players, particularly when it involves something so unrealistic as an instant scan of a planet, and extra-particularly because players have the ability to warp time.

It's also important to note that a large number of people enjoy the process of seeking/finding much more than the process of harvesting/refining. Horses and courses.

This is what I mean when I say you really have to take the system as a whole, yet folks are fixated on one bit (the least significant, actually) because, in fairness, it appears to be the closest analogue to what they are used to.

Firstly, one does not need to consider the system as a whole in order to voice criticism of a particular aspect of it.

Secondly, you're being dismissive and a bit rude yourself. Least significant to you does not mean least significant to others, which should be pretty clear given the context of this thread.

the folks that are complaining about that first scanner, which is more about visualizing an educated guess based on limited data to render a realtime display than an actual full-on scan ala Kethane/SCANSat...

Have you actually gone through and used the rest of the scanners? Specifically, ground truthing with the surface scanner, followed by your flybys with the narrow band scanner?

Ground-truthing and flybys don't make the initial scan less-instantaneous, more believable, or more likable to those who don't like it.

I don't like cantaloupe. If I'm served a fruit salad, I don't need to eat the whole thing to know that I won't like the cantaloupe. My dislike of cantaloupe does not preclude enjoyment of the fruit salad, nor does the deliciousness of the other fruit preclude my dislike of cantaloupe.

If, on the whole, I do enjoy the fruit salad, this suggests that the non-cantaloupey elements managed to redeem the salad, however cantaloupe is still cantaloupe, and I still don't enjoy it.

I think that's a pretty legitimate question given you're judging an aspect of a system by comparing it to something that it really is not.

I think you need to shake this notion that those who dislike the instant scan are comparing the resource system to Kethan/MapSat/ScanSat or whatever.

It would be one thing if people where comparing the resource system in its entirety to the Kethane mod in it's entirety, but that isn't the case... at least not here. This isn't comparing apples and bananas as you've suggested; it's a comparison of scanning mechanics.

Many people, myself included, don't like instant scanning because it seems absurd. In my opinion it detracts from immersion, it's arcade-y, it cheapens the process of building and transporting a probe when all it has to do is show up in order to get the job done. Worse still is the fact that the scanner doesn't work unless you're in a specific orbit.. it all just seems bizarre and out of place to me, and it feels as though the data is being handed to me as a reward for achieving a specific orbit, rather than being something to achieve in and of itself.

Moreover, in eliminating the process of scanning, the possibility of failure was all-but eliminated.

One of the things that I love about progressive scanning is that you can get burned by not equipping probes with enough batteries to allow for a full pass of the dark side of a planet, or not affixing adequate solar panelage to fully charge the batteries while on the sunny side, and even if you do construct the probe with sufficient panels/batteries for the task, rough launches, messy separations and other such accidents that could jeopardize the mission are always a risk.

I also like the fact that the scanners work at any inclination, so if you screw up and run out of fuel in a sloppy or equatorial orbit, at a weird inclination or whatever, you can still gather a limited amount of data, thus missions can be partially successful.

To be clear, I'm not comparing the resource system to a mod, rather I'm comparing the initial scan mechanic with what I believe to be a much more enjoyable and realistic scanning mechanic.

So you're judging a mechanic, and rudely so, that is part of a system that you have never used.

He's judging a mechanic that he did use. Again, enjoying 99% of the resource gathering process does not make the instant scanning less instant, more realistic, or more enjoyable for those who don't enjoy it.

You seem to be suggesting that the rest of the system will make up for it, but that's not really the point.

Now. If anyone wants to discuss concerns with the scanning system once they have in fact actually used the entire scanning system soup to nuts, then I would welcome a much more productive conversation.

Why can't people dislike instant scanning without first having tried the non-instant-scanning aspects of the system?

Look man, I have all the respect in the world for people who selflessly donate their time and energy in an effort to improve the KSP experience for everyone, whether I happen to enjoy their contributions or not.

As I've said, I appreciate all of your hard work and like the vast majority of what you've done, but the instant-scan is a significant drawback for me, and clearly many others, and no amount of ground-truthing or flyby-ing is going to change thiis.

Our criticisms arise from our own subjective preferences, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that the mechanic is flawed in any sort of an objective sense.

Rather, some of us just don't like it, and with good reason. Others do like it, and with good reason.(<-I'm being diplomatic )

Hopefully we can find a middle-ground.

Edited May 18, 2015 by little square dot

[Superfluous J]

I'm surprised that nobody has cared enough to make a mod to do this. I know there's ScanSat, but I mean a mod to simply* turn the insta-scan into a you-must-timewarp-for-no-good-reason scan.

* CAUTION: non-programmer using the word "simply" do describe how to implement a feature

[DMagic]

I'm surprised that nobody has cared enough to make a mod to do this. I know there's ScanSat, but I mean a mod to simply* turn the insta-scan into a you-must-timewarp-for-no-good-reason scan.

* CAUTION: non-programmer using the word "simply" do describe how to implement a feature

There is a [thread=121298]mod for it[/thread], it adds a simple requirement that you complete an orbit or two before you can conduct the survey.

And I started working on SCANsat again, both to implement and improve the progressive resource scanning and to replace the stock resource overlay.

[Superfluous J]

There is a [thread=121298]mod for it[/thread], it adds a simple requirement that you complete an orbit or two before you can conduct the survey.

And I started working on SCANsat again, both to implement and improve the progressive resource scanning and to replace the stock resource overlay.

I suspect that simply adding a few orbits won't be enough for most people who don't like the current system.

Cool to hear about SCANsat though. Integration with the stock overlay would be awesome!

[Captain Sierra]

I suspect that simply adding a few orbits won't be enough for most people who don't like the current system.

Cool to hear about SCANsat though. Integration with the stock overlay would be awesome!

Allow me to voice a counter-argument as someone who prefers to get straight into the resourcing op rather than extensive scanning.

I can do a single planetary flyby and get a good enough idea of where i need to land to start a basic refueling base. Once I have a basic framework in place, then I can start ground truthing and high-gain scanning (assuming this is a background thing; if it isn't I'm not gonna bother). All the while I have a basic fueling architecture available to significantly reduce the costs of ground truthing (1 reusable lander instead of many single-run landers). Once I find a better place to set up my architecture, I start work on a more efficient, high yield mining operation. I personally am of the belief the current stock scanning system strikes a solid balance between complexity, and ease of access (to resourcing). If people have a problem with the insta-scan, just go straight to the narrow band (never tried this but I assume it works).

[nholzric]

Well said Little Square Dot - thanks!

I'll take a moment to reiterate that I am a little surprised that RoverDude took such offense to this thread. I'm thankful for all the work that's gone into KSP - I've gotten more than my money's worth! The "insta-scan" thing is something I think should have been done differently and I'll confess I intentionally put a point on the wording of the OP. But keep up the good work RoverDude and SQUAD, etc.

This weekend I designed my first ground base. It'll be module with a rover that assembles the pieces once they land. My plan is to deploy it to Minmus: "For Science and Fuel!" As a pre-req, after an epic Mun science gather system I finally unlocked the narrow-band scanner. I've been taking surface sample-scans in the various Minmus biomes; those don't seem to do anything to the coarse insta-scan view from space, maybe I'll see evidence of the surface sample-scans with the narrow-band scanner. Hopefully they aren't useless since the surface sampler is unlocked before the narrow-band. SO, any day now - but probably over the next week or so - it will be time to demonstrate the power of KSP's fully operational ISRU scan/mining mechanic. I'm excited! But that doesn't mean it's any less disappointing when that gorgeous wide-band scanner outlives its usefulness 10 seconds after arriving at a planet. That's all.

Allow me to voice a counter-argument as someone who prefers to get straight into the resourcing op rather than extensive scanning.

...I personally am of the belief the current stock scanning system strikes a solid balance between complexity, and ease of access (to resourcing). If people have a problem with the insta-scan, just go straight to the narrow band (never tried this but I assume it works).

I don't know if going straight to the narrow band scanner will work - if someone wants to weigh in I'm curious now too. But you're definitely not alone in preferring to skip a more complex scanning mechanic and going straight to the mining action.

[little square dot]

I mean a mod to simply* turn the insta-scan into a you-must-timewarp-for-no-good-reason scan.

haha... thems be fightin' words.

I started working on SCANsat again.

Music to my ears. =)

[Spartwo]

Yea, I dragged multiple scanners to Dres and was finished with them within a few seconds:/

[Superfluous J]

haha... thems be fightin' words.

The title of this thread is fightin' words. I'm merely responding in kind.

[Red Iron Crown]

I don't really care that it insta-scans, watching a scanner orbit is dull gameplay. I do, however, find the requirement for a polar orbit a bit onerous. What if I want the scanner on my mothership and don't want to enter a polar orbit? We should be able to do a latitude restricted scan, IMO, so that if we want to find a suitable deposit somewhere near the equator we don't need to go into a costly high inclination orbit.

[little square dot]

I do, however, find the requirement for a polar orbit a bit onerous. What if I want the scanner on my mothership and don't want to enter a polar orbit? We should be able to do a latitude restricted scan, IMO, so that if we want to find a suitable deposit somewhere near the equator we don't need to go into a costly high inclination orbit.

You'd have to implement a progressive system in order to give players the ability to acquire limited data based on their orbital inclination.

With the instant-scan mechanic in place, it makes perfect sense to require the player to enter into a polar orbit... it would be far too cheat-y otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -

The title of this thread is fightin' words. I'm merely responding in kind.

Joking, not accusing.

=)

Edited May 19, 2015 by little square dot

[tntristan12]

I don't really care that it insta-scans, watching a scanner orbit is dull gameplay. I do, however, find the requirement for a polar orbit a bit onerous. What if I want the scanner on my mothership and don't want to enter a polar orbit? We should be able to do a latitude restricted scan, IMO, so that if we want to find a suitable deposit somewhere near the equator we don't need to go into a costly high inclination orbit.

But then, if you are going to make special cases for every type of orbit you could be in (don't get me wrong, I don't think there should be an orbit restriction at all), then wouldn't it just be easier to use *one* system that addresses all possibilities at once? I've seen a lot of insta-scan vs. scansat arguments breaking out, but what if the high-level scanner just insta-scanned whatever was visible in the field of view of the planet? I've brought this idea up several times and nobody has yet seemed to pick up on its merits, so I'm getting a little frustrated...

I think what bothers me the most about the current mechanic is that it makes time even less of a consideration than it already is. I mean, what if you only brought enough juice for a flyby? Shouldn't you be rewarded with at least *some* information for your effort? Instead, the game says "Nope! You gotta do it *my* way whether you want to or not", and that bugs me...

[little square dot]

But then, if you are going to make special cases for every type of orbit you could be in (don't get me wrong, I don't think there should be an orbit restriction at all), then wouldn't it just be easier to use *one* system that addresses all possibilities at once?

Absolutely. Whether or not it's a real-time progressive scan, the ability to acquire limited data based on orbital inclination is a progressive system, and at that point it might as well be made into a real-time thing because people can just warp through the process if they don't like it.

I've seen a lot of insta-scan vs. scansat arguments breaking out, but what if the high-level scanner just insta-scanned whatever was visible in the field of view of the planet? I've brought this idea up several times and nobody has yet seemed to pick up on its merits, so I'm getting a little frustrated...

How is this idea appealing to those who dislike instant scanning? I think the two major camps in this debate are instant vs. non-instant people. Adding multiple layers of instant scans only appeases the instant-scan-but-no-polar-orbit-requirement crowd.

I think what bothers me the most about the current mechanic is that it makes time even less of a consideration than it already is. I mean, what if you only brought enough juice for a flyby? Shouldn't you be rewarded with at least *some* information for your effort? Instead, the game says "Nope! You gotta do it *my* way whether you want to or not", and that bugs me...

Agreed.

But again, if the game is going to make those calculations to reveal a certain amount of information based on the capabilities of your craft / orbital inclination, it might as well be a real-time progression...it simply doesn't make sense that everything else in the game involves a simulated process on one kind or another, but scanning a planet doesn't. It's akin to allowing soil samples to be collected from within a landed lander. Presumably those who dislike the idea of "needlessly" time warping to collect data similarly dislike the notion of having to climb down a ladder in order to grab a soil sample, because it's exactly the same principle.

Edited May 19, 2015 by little square dot

[Superfluous J]

Presumably those who dislike the idea of "needlessly" time warping to collect data similarly dislike the notion of having to climb down a ladder in order to grab a soil sample, because it's exactly the same principle.

I can't speak for everybody but in my personal case, you presume correct.

IMO science should just happen, and the reports should just collect in the pods as you go with some sort of indication that you're doing well. Like the Cities: Skylines "building upgraded" ding and a little "+1 temperature scan" text popping up out of the capsule that stored it. I play this game to fly cool and unique ships around a simulated solar system and get into and out of jams. I don't play it to pan, zoom, right click, left click, misclick, find a way to get the Kerbals feet (seriously. Their feet) close enough to the experiment to grab it, and all that junk.

I am likewise glad that I'm not involved in what nails to use when upgrading the VAB.

[little square dot]

I can't speak for everybody but in my personal case, you presume correct.

IMO science should just happen, and the reports should just collect in the pods as you go with some sort of indication that you're doing well. Like the Cities: Skylines "building upgraded" ding and a little "+1 temperature scan" text popping up out of the capsule that stored it. I play this game to fly cool and unique ships around a simulated solar system and get into and out of jams. I don't play it to pan, zoom, right click, left click, misclick, find a way to get the Kerbals feet (seriously. Their feet) close enough to the experiment to grab it, and all that junk.

I am likewise glad that I'm not involved in what nails to use when upgrading the VAB.

The VAB nails comparison may be a wee bit extreme, but I hear what you're saying. Where do you draw that line between fun and grindy though?

I'm with you insofar as disliking many of the grindier elements of gathering scientific data, although I don't considering having to exit the lander in order to grab a soil sample to be particularly grindy, but when it comes to something like scanning a planet, I think this introduces more of a challenge to the fun processes of building/flying.

For example, in order to enter into an optimal orbit for scanning, you'll either have to pack more dV into your vehicle, get creative with your gravity assists, or do a little of both. You'll have to ensure that your probes have adequate battery capacity and sufficient generation potential, perhaps you'd feel inclined to design your probe with some sort of propulsion system to allow it to skip orbits and do a secondary scan of a moon or whatever... who knows, but the point is that you have more to think about when building/flying if you have a specific task that nudges you outside of the box.

[Superfluous J]

The VAB nails comparison may be a wee bit extreme, but I hear what you're saying. Where do you draw that line between fun and grindy though?

I'm sure there are edge cases, but if it involves building, testing, or piloting a ship under active control, then I'm happy with it. If it involves time warping to get that ship somewhere or do anything else that requires time warp due to limitations of the simulation, I accept it but would prefer it didn't happen. If it involves right clicking various things, time warping until a countdown timer ends, or things like that I'll happily lose them.

Examples:

Launching to orbit: I will happily do that hundreds of times. Thousands even. That's the game.

Time warping to Jool: I will begrudgingly do that because that's a side effect of the simulation. Though if there was a way, I'd love to be able to right click my ship's orbit and say "jump to next SOI change" and have the game just do that.

Sending science home and waiting for the transmission: That is boring to me and I wish it wasn't a thing. I understand that in 1 out of every 47 billion (there I go with hyperbole again) cases, you are doing something crazy like diving into Jool's atmosphere and it adds a tiny bit of gameplay to not just insta-send the transmission, but in every other case it just means you have to stop doing the fun stuff and instead sit there and wait. You can't even jump to another ship because the current ship will just stop even trying to transmit until you come back.

Here's the funny part: When it comes to scanning and drilling - one of which takes no time and one of which requires waiting "just to wait" - I'm actually cool with them both. It does feel like the mining should take time even though there is no active game playing time happening. Partially this is because - in pretty much every situation I'll ever be in - it will be exactly as if mining WAS instant because I don't set up an all-in-one hopper type ship, I set up a ground base. By the time I visit the base I expect all its tanks to be full and ready to fill up my ship. Scanning, if it was not instant, would not bother me in the least. I've done the Kethane scanning dance and didn't find it grindy at all however I'm happy to avoid it now.

For example, in order to enter into an optimal orbit for scanning, you'll either have to pack more dV into your vehicle, get creative with your gravity assists, or do a little of both. You'll have to ensure that your probes have adequate battery capacity and sufficient generation potential, perhaps you'd feel inclined to design your probe with some sort of propulsion system to allow it to skip orbits and do a secondary scan of a moon or whatever... who knows, but the point is that you have more to think about when building/flying if you have a specific task that nudges you outside of the box.

I have no problem with all of that. Until I heard it was instant I just assumed there would be some sort of scanning mechanic. After a few minutes of thought, though, I concluded that the benefit (lack of drudgery) outweighed the loss (extra stuff to think about and do with your scanning ship) and am happy with it.

[Tw1]

I do, however, find the requirement for a polar orbit a bit onerous. What if I want the scanner on my mothership and don't want to enter a polar orbit? We should be able to do a latitude restricted scan, IMO, so that if we want to find a suitable deposit somewhere near the equator we don't need to go into a costly high inclination orbit.

I agree, this is a problem with the insta-scan. It prevents you from doing things that realistically, should be options, reducing immersion.

Plus, it doesn't clearly show you why you need to be in a polar orbit. KSP is good at teaching people about space exploration because it shows, rather than tells.

The arbitrary-seeming polar orbit requirement is telling, not showing.

You don't see the relationship between inclination and ground coverage, or the relationship between scan time and the planet's rotation.

but what if the high-level scanner just insta-scanned whatever was visible in the field of view of the planet? I've brought this idea up several times and nobody has yet seemed to pick up on its merits, so I'm getting a little frustrated...

I think what bothers me the most about the current mechanic is that it makes time even less of a consideration than it already is. I mean, what if you only brought enough juice for a flyby? Shouldn't you be rewarded with at least *some* information for your effort? Instead, the game says "Nope! You gotta do it *my* way whether you want to or not", and that bugs me...

I have to agree with both points. Leaving it low resolution, but giving it a very wide field of view would open up the possibility to get info from flybys, or scan from other inclinations, but remove much of the waiting during time warp. One reason scanning in other mods takes so long is the limited field of view.

It shouldn't be too broad though, and have some distance limit, or the advantages of a polar orbit with be completely negated.

Plus, planning around time should be a thing in KSP.Not in the form of making the player sit there and wait, but making them schedule.

A little waiting isn't so bad. We already time warp to get to launch windows, and so we don't have to wait weeks for spacecraft to arrive, and that doesn't seem to be a problem. IMHO, the game doesn't need to be a constant rush of activity, it can be nice to just sit and watch sometimes.

At most scanning will take a few minutes, but you don't want to sit through the scanning process, you can go do something else.

IMO science should just happen, and the reports should just collect in the pods as you go with some sort of indication that you're doing well. Like the Cities: Skylines "building upgraded" ding and a little "+1 temperature scan" text popping up out of the capsule that stored it. I play this game to fly cool and unique ships around a simulated solar system and get into and out of jams. I don't play it to pan, zoom, right click, left click, misclick, find a way to get the Kerbals feet (seriously. Their feet) close enough to the experiment to grab it, and all that junk.

I sort of both agree, and disagree. Some things would make sense if they just collected data as you went along, but others should have player interaction. One about KSP that makes it more appealing than orbiter is it's not just a flight simulator. In KSP, you're able to get out, and hop about on another world. IMHO, there should be more to make it feel like you're actually exploring other worlds, and investigating space, rather than just being the driver.

Plus, it can add another design challenge, if you need to get the kerbals near to the experiments to collect the data.

[nholzric]

The title of this thread is fightin' words. I'm merely responding in kind.

LOL Fair point. Hopefully it's a dual rather than a brawl.

I agree, this is a problem with the insta-scan. It prevents you from doing things that realistically, should be options, reducing immersion.

Plus, it doesn't clearly show you why you need to be in a polar orbit. KSP is good at teaching people about space exploration because it shows, rather than tells.

The arbitrary-seeming polar orbit requirement is telling, not showing.

You don't see the relationship between inclination and ground coverage, or the relationship between scan time and the planet's rotation.

"Telling, not showing" That's probably the heart of it. Even if it was insta-scan of certain latitudes, the player would have control over what he cared about and, if he didn't already know, "learn" that to cover the entire planet he needs a high inclination.

I admit the immersion is a big part of it for me too, but that's preference. Some of us like climbing down ladders to do science ("immersion") some of us don't and that's cool. But the "telling, not showing" is what surprised me about the new mechanic.

I would be fine with an insta-scan of some or all of the planet that's in view. At least then the orbit plays some role. Give it a maximum distance and an angular field of view. That would eliminate most of the time-warping compared to a scan-sat type mechanic, it would make the sensors useful for a little longer per planet visit, it would make the orbit important - I think that would address the major objections to the current system, it sounds like a good compromise. In fact, this is very similar to how the other scanner works and they would still be complimentary since it is impractical to survey an entire planet with the narrower field of view.

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Last night I landed my first base (ever) on Minmus. Very excited. I had already done the ground test on a number of different biomes as I was collecting science. Before I landed the base I had a satellite with the narrow field of view scanner :: in a polar orbit :: trying to get an idea of what the maximum concentration was (I think I landed on 5 or 6% - is that good?).

So RoverDude said one of the features of the new mechanic was the multiple sensor types and how they play together which sounds great! In contrast to the hubris of the title of this thread - the fighting words - let me be completely humble. I don't understand the interplay. What did the surface scans do for me, did they make the narrow band scanner more accurate? Do either the narrow band or the surface scan change the orbital heat-map? I'll poke around other threads, I'm sure there's an explanation. I am having fun but I'm still in the stage of excited to be excited about the interplay.

[Rath]

I think that the large scannere could scan larger areas the higher up it is, however it is less percise. Also, I wish the narrow band work in the atmosphere.

[asmi]

I think the biggest problem with insta-scan is that in never actually explains why it had to happen from polar orbit, as player is not given an opportunity to try it on a different orbit to see why.