[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[bounty123]

2 hours ago, Uberns said:

I was wondering how yall handle habitation for your Kerbin re-entry pods.  As soon as i disconnect my 3 man pod from the main ship all of my Kerbals revolt and refuse to work because their habitation drops from a few years to zero.  Currently I am working around the problem by expanding the kerbin habitation range to 100km and putting probe cores on the ship parts that return to Kerbin.

This was discussed not so long ago, I was having the same problem. Seems that docking does the trick, if you dock/undock, hab time of the landing vessel gets reset and gives more than enough time to land. Of course this does not affect home sickness values.

Edited December 8, 2016 by bounty123

[Gilph]

14 hours ago, Errol said:

Any reason why the Nom-o-matic has a cost of 0 funds?

Black Friday?

[Gilph]

I was wondering how yall handle habitation for your Kerbin re-entry pods.  As soon as i disconnect my 3 man pod from the main ship all of my Kerbals revolt and refuse to work because their habitation drops from a few years to zero.  Currently I am working around the problem by expanding the kerbin habitation range to 100km and putting probe cores on the ship parts that return to Kerbin.

 

I go the probe core route also, especially close to Kerbin

Edited December 8, 2016 by Gilph
wrong quote

[releansol]

Thanks for the update.

Anybody else have this error message on startscreen? (not a big thing, just wondering).

[Li0n]

21 minutes ago, releansol said:

Thanks for the update.

Anybody else have this error message on startscreen? (not a big thing, just wondering).

Err.... what message are you talking about ? You should attach a screenshot.

The one that tell you this mod was build for 1.2.1 and not for 1.2.2 ? It's harmless I'm pretty sure.

[RoverDude]

Yup, 1.2.2 was a non-breaking release.  I'm waiting for the various upload places to sort out letting me use the right version, and will also be doing some serious mod consolidation this go around.

[LatiMacciato]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Yup, 1.2.2 was a non-breaking release.  I'm waiting for the various upload places to sort out letting me use the right version, and will also be doing some serious mod consolidation this go around.

I'm not quite certain if I'm doing something wrong but well .. it does break asteroid mining, no radiators are cooling any drills in space, other than that I love the update and how flawless any mods come along with (except AVC mumbling about versions :P).

[Streetwind]

13 minutes ago, LatiMacciato said:

no radiators are cooling any drills in space

He meant "non-breaking" as in "does not render mods incompatible". If 1.2.2 introduces new bugs, then that's not the fault of mod authors

Edited December 10, 2016 by Streetwind

[LatiMacciato]

3 minutes ago, Streetwind said:

He meant "non-breaking" as in "does render mods incompatible". If 1.2.2 introduces new bugs, then that's not the fault of mod authors

very true!

[RoverDude]

28 minutes ago, LatiMacciato said:

I'm not quite certain if I'm doing something wrong but well .. it does break asteroid mining, no radiators are cooling any drills in space, other than that I love the update and how flawless any mods come along with (except AVC mumbling about versions :P).

Not aware of this.  And while totally not related to this thread, can you point me to a bug tracker issue?  Since there's not enough context given

[LatiMacciato]

1 minute ago, RoverDude said:

Not aware of this.  And while totally not related to this thread, can you point me to a bug tracker issue?  Since there's not enough context given

fair enough, yup sorry thats not related to USI-LS at all!

I suppose there is no bug report yet, but i did try to state out in this post already that there is some issue.
I'd love to give some feedback (also would file a bug report for that one).

I also provide more if necessary.

Regards

[RoverDude]

Start with logging a ticket on the KSP public tracker with an attached (stock only) save.  Then PM me that issue number.  Oh... and yeah, make sure it is stock only.  otherwise there may be mods messing with the thermal code.

[Wyzard]

I notice that when I'm not focused on a spacecraft, its EC time remaining in the Life Support Status window decreases as if it's ignoring the craft's EC production from solar panels and such.  When I switch back to controlling the craft, the EC timer goes back to what it should be.

Someone else mentioned this a few pages back, but in connection with the "micro holiday" that turned out to be a habitation bug, so I wanted to bring it up as something that's still an issue independently of that.  Notably, I didn't get any messages about kerbals going on strike or returning to work when I switched to a craft whose EC meter was "expired" before the switch, even though it was in the green last time I had focus on it, and was back in the green after switching to it.  Presumably USI-LS doesn't do its checking until after the game's catch-up mechanics have accounted for all the EC produced while the craft was unfocused.

Since it doesn't seem to trigger penalties, it's not really a big problem, but seeing "expired" in the LS status window is a bit confusing/misleading.  (I'm thinking I may just turn off the EC requirements, actually — most spacecraft produce enough EC to keep their batteries full when not in focus, and if it really does run out, you lose habitation, which has its own consequences.)

[gamerscircle]

Taking the plunge, w/ baby steps.

I thought I would finally start to use a Life Support mod and since I have used Mr. Palmer' MKS mods in the past [oh.. lets not forget the Multiple Massive Rover Massacre of 2016] and have had a ton of fun.

If I want to just run resupply ships, that would be pretty easy.. Just run supplies?

Working Example:  If I have a 2 scientist station , with 1 MLP , 1 Hitchhiker along with more than enough Electrical Charge to run this small station.

Since I installed the LS, I sent Nom-O-Matic 5000 , 2 x RT 500, Fertilizer Tank 1.25, Life Support Tank 1.25 and 6 x Life Support MiniPak.

What did I do wrong and what can I change to maximize this stations resupply ships?

Thanks.

[DStaal]

42 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

I notice that when I'm not focused on a spacecraft, its EC time remaining in the Life Support Status window decreases as if it's ignoring the craft's EC production from solar panels and such.  When I switch back to controlling the craft, the EC timer goes back to what it should be.

Someone else mentioned this a few pages back, but in connection with the "micro holiday" that turned out to be a habitation bug, so I wanted to bring it up as something that's still an issue independently of that.  Notably, I didn't get any messages about kerbals going on strike or returning to work when I switched to a craft whose EC meter was "expired" before the switch, even though it was in the green last time I had focus on it, and was back in the green after switching to it.  Presumably USI-LS doesn't do its checking until after the game's catch-up mechanics have accounted for all the EC produced while the craft was unfocused.

Since it doesn't seem to trigger penalties, it's not really a big problem, but seeing "expired" in the LS status window is a bit confusing/misleading.  (I'm thinking I may just turn off the EC requirements, actually — most spacecraft produce enough EC to keep their batteries full when not in focus, and if it really does run out, you lose habitation, which has its own consequences.)

It is a bit annoying, but yeah it has to do with KSP's catch-up mechanics: KSP doesn't actually calculate EC production and use in the background, so USI-LS can't calculate how it's progressing.  The best it can do is say 'last time we saw this craft it had this much EC'.  It would take a major rewrite of KSP's internals to avoid this.  (There are a couple of mods that attempt to do this, but USI-LS isn't one of them.)

[Streetwind]

14 minutes ago, gamerscircle said:

Taking the plunge, w/ baby steps.

I thought I would finally start to use a Life Support mod and since I have used Mr. Palmer' MKS mods in the past [oh.. lets not forget the Multiple Massive Rover Massacre of 2016] and have had a ton of fun.

If I want to just run resupply ships, that would be pretty easy.. Just run supplies?

Working Example:  If I have a 2 scientist station , with 1 MLP , 1 Hitchhiker along with more than enough Electrical Charge to run this small station.

Since I installed the LS, I sent Nom-O-Matic 5000 , 2 x RT 500, Fertilizer Tank 1.25, Life Support Tank 1.25 and 6 x Life Support MiniPak.

What did I do wrong and what can I change to maximize this stations resupply ships?

Thanks.

Assuming the station is manned by 2 scientists, you didn't need to send the two RT-500's. The MPL already has recyclers for two Kerbals. You would only need extra if you had extra Kerbals to support.

Second, you should probably pick between trying to run hydroponics and trying to shuttle over supplies. One Nom-O-Matic 5000 alone does practically nothing for a station with multiple crew members. It outputs 2.85 supplies / day, where a day is 6 hours, if you'll remember. Meanwhile, you have two Kerbals, and the MPL has a 50% recycler for two Kerbals, so your effective consumption is that of one Kerbal. On default settings, that's 10.8 supplies / day (0.0005 base rate * 60 sec * 60 min * 6 h). So that greenhouse covers barely a quarter of your needs.

The larger Nom-O-Matic 25000 has five times the output, so it could keep your station fed indefinitely, as long as you continue to ship over fertilizer.

Alternatively, don't bother with greenhouses at all, and just ship supplies instead.

A third option would be to ship a RT-5000 recycler. It would reduce your consumption from 10.8 to 4.536 supplies / day. At that point, even the single small Nom-O-Matic would cover two thirds of your needs, meaning you could just add some extra supplies to your fertilizer deliveries to make up the difference. That recycler takes a lot of power, though.

[Wyzard]

39 minutes ago, DStaal said:

KSP doesn't actually calculate EC production and use in the background, so USI-LS can't calculate how it's progressing.  (…)  It would take a major rewrite of KSP's internals to avoid this.

Yeah, that's about what I figured.  Not a problem, though; I'll just turn it off.  Supplies and habitation are the interesting parts, not EC.

In the steady state, when you're not doing transient high-power things like transmitting science or running ion engines, a spacecraft's batteries are generally either held at full (if it has enough power generation) or empty (if not), so a countdown timer for EC doesn't really make sense anyway.  And we already typically design spacecraft with enough power generation to meet their needs, regardless of life support, because running out of power already has stock consequences.  (It's "life support" for probe cores!)

[gamerscircle]

1 hour ago, Streetwind said:

Assuming the station is manned by 2 scientists, you didn't need to send the two RT-500's. The MPL already has recyclers for two Kerbals. You would only need extra if you had extra Kerbals to support.

Second, you should probably pick between trying to run hydroponics and trying to shuttle over supplies. One Nom-O-Matic 5000 alone does practically nothing for a station with multiple crew members. It outputs 2.85 supplies / day, where a day is 6 hours, if you'll remember. Meanwhile, you have two Kerbals, and the MPL has a 50% recycler for two Kerbals, so your effective consumption is that of one Kerbal. On default settings, that's 10.8 supplies / day (0.0005 base rate * 60 sec * 60 min * 6 h). So that greenhouse covers barely a quarter of your needs.

The larger Nom-O-Matic 25000 has five times the output, so it could keep your station fed indefinitely, as long as you continue to ship over fertilizer.

Alternatively, don't bother with greenhouses at all, and just ship supplies instead.

A third option would be to ship a RT-5000 recycler. It would reduce your consumption from 10.8 to 4.536 supplies / day. At that point, even the single small Nom-O-Matic would cover two thirds of your needs, meaning you could just add some extra supplies to your fertilizer deliveries to make up the difference. That recycler takes a lot of power, though.

I get your meaning and thank you for the assistance.

 

Bottom line, no matter what, a station cannot be self sufficient on its own with some kind of infrastructure from OKS/MKS?  Sending resupply drones will be fine for now.. thank you again./

[DStaal]

45 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

Yeah, that's about what I figured.  Not a problem, though; I'll just turn it off.  Supplies and habitation are the interesting parts, not EC.

In the steady state, when you're not doing transient high-power things like transmitting science or running ion engines, a spacecraft's batteries are generally either held at full (if it has enough power generation) or empty (if not), so a countdown timer for EC doesn't really make sense anyway.  And we already typically design spacecraft with enough power generation to meet their needs, regardless of life support, because running out of power already has stock consequences.  (It's "life support" for probe cores!)

There are a few border cases - I've lost Kerbals in a solar-powered rover that I drove to long into the Minmus night, for instance - but yeah, in general it's an ignoreable edge case.  The one thing it does do is raise 'enough power generation' by a bit.

(And even that rover was recoverable by abusing how KSP handles generation: Switch away while it still had some power, and make sure not to switch back before it's in the sun, and it'd come back with power.)

1 minute ago, gamerscircle said:

Bottom line, no matter what, a station cannot be self sufficient on its own with some kind of infrastructure from OKS/MKS?  Sending resupply drones will be fine for now.. thank you again./

That's been one of RoverDude's design goals.  Surface-based bases can be self sufficient by using local resources, but space-based stations can't be.

[Merkov]

54 minutes ago, gamerscircle said:

Bottom line, no matter what, a station cannot be self sufficient on its own with some kind of infrastructure from OKS/MKS?  Sending resupply drones will be fine for now.. thank you again./

 

53 minutes ago, DStaal said:

That's been one of RoverDude's design goals.  Surface-based bases can be self sufficient by using local resources, but space-based stations can't be.

I will add to this that you can make a space station be able to last on its own for a LONG time with the correct parts. Sometimes, it's too easy to get focused on trying to design something that will be 100% self sustaining and missing the fact that what you've built will last 20 years without any resupply and you only need it for 5 years. 

[gamerscircle]

1 hour ago, Merkov said:

 

I will add to this that you can make a space station be able to last on its own for a LONG time with the correct parts. Sometimes, it's too easy to get focused on trying to design something that will be 100% self sustaining and missing the fact that what you've built will last 20 years without any resupply and you only need it for 5 years. 

I thought with OKS , there was a way to be able to tap into the warehouse on the planet or something like that?

[ExplorerKlatt]

21 minutes ago, gamerscircle said:

I thought with OKS , there was a way to be able to tap into the warehouse on the planet or something like that?

Nope. Currently there is no way to make an orbital station completely self sufficient. Keep in mind though that with enough storage an the right parts you can make a station that will take decades to need resupply. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by ExplorerKlatt

[Wyzard]

BTW, I notice that having a kerbal go on EVA, even briefly, resets the "hab" timer.  Is that intentional?  On the one hand, it makes sense, since the kerbal is getting a chance to stretch his/her legs.  On the other hand, it makes the timer kinda pointless since you can reset it at any time just by clicking the EVA button to go outside and then pressing "B" to get back in.  Or am I missing something?

[Uberns]

22 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

BTW, I notice that having a kerbal go on EVA, even briefly, resets the "hab" timer.  Is that intentional?  On the one hand, it makes sense, since the kerbal is getting a chance to stretch his/her legs.  On the other hand, it makes the timer kinda pointless since you can reset it at any time just by clicking the EVA button to go outside and then pressing "B" to get back in.  Or am I missing something?

I havent noticed this happening anywhere except for my minmus base (and I think that one was because i had more than one ship in the area).  

Its pretty easy to make the hab timer trivial even if it does take a little more than eva and reenter.  I just try to "role play" my actions such that the spirit of the hab timers are preserved.  Not being able to make it to minmus in just a pod made for a few interesting early game designs.  And for the first time in over 1500 hours of game play, I finally have a play-through where it makes sense to use probes over manned missions.

[Wyzard]

I just did it with a ship returning from the Mun, with nothing else nearby.  It may be relevant that the ship in question has no actual hab module, just a 2-kerbal lander can, so the hab timer was just resetting to its baseline 45 hours (0.25 kerbal-months).  I don't know if it happens with ships that have actual habitation parts.

(Also BTW, "kerbal-months" are sort of a weird metric: they're Earth months (30 days) composed of Kerbin days (6 hours).  A Kerbin month (one orbit of the Mun) is about 6 days.)